greatswords

sigh been holding this salt awhile but they never should have been nerf'd and their subsequent nerf is the first time I've been disappointed in FromSoft I have followed this company forever. They are easily my favorite developer, with ranging titles from Otogi, Armored Core, to Dark Souls. The great sword nerf truly did not make sense to me. I understand that because of the rate of attack people did not like them. However, there are many weapons in the game that stun lock quickly. Take the gold tracer or falcion for example. The fast attacks of both weapons rips through poise and stun locks very quickly. Oh, and how do people deal with said weapons "just toggle escape"......yes, ok........let's as a group agree to exploit a glitch. The toggle is a glitch that gives infinite poise for a moment so you can escape a stun lock. The greatsword speed nerf was brought about because people didn't like the mix of high poise break mixed with a fair swing speed. However, in relation to the other weapons of the game its swing speed made sense. The greatsword weapons class swung faster than ultra weapons but faster than one handed swords. Dark souls is a mechanics game built upon the idea of fair, what ever that means. If a dragon lands and steps on you it pushes you down and then may fly up and burn you before you can get up. This is the core of dark souls and I am sorely disappointed that the greatsword nerf was ever an occurrence. It was both shameful and a grave trend error for the series. The idea of swinging, pausing for no reason, then swinging again just bothered me in a game so focused on the idea of mechanical fairness even if that fair consesion aided or hurt the player.

Well my rant is over, I'm just still sore about the nerf to my favorite weapon class and hope that both greatswords and ultra greatswords are improved in dark souls II. So far every instance of that beautiful greatsword in videos has made me hopeful

Toggle cancels out the stun lock by changing animation, not by giving infinite poise..

I'm sorry, but I really couldn't read most of your post, so I'm just picking on something that stood out to me.

either way it is a glitch that allows you to tank hits you shouldn't be able to *shrug* and there is a kuntaf video I believe where he tanks 7 hits from a greatsword by toggle switching (way better than I can lol)

Yet better players I see use the Claymore or Flamberge rather than a Falchion or Gold Tracer. The greatsword nerf improved most's gameplay in my opinion since most people started experimenting with the weapons' movesets and discovering new combos.

Yes, the nerf sucked, and I understand that you'd want the mechanics balanced and more realistic again. Greatswords should stun people faster - not curved swords, but From wanted to balance the game one way or another.

Also, weapons in the greatsword class generally have much more versatile movesets than curved swords even though they lost their stunlocking ability. I'd much prefer to have a kick, better R2's, better single hit poise damage, and better BS/parry damage than faster stunlocking capabilities.

Yea I've seen  much more people experiment with move sets and in that regard it is a great change, but it's more of a feel mechanic that im salt over. Every weapon has a move set that feels like "yea that would be how it would move" in some regard. It is the weird "stall out" after the first strike thats jarring. Don't get me wrong the flamburger is a great move if you pull it off haha. I'm just hoping with the move sets in the upcoming dark souls, in which move sets aren't a mirror of the previous move, that there will be no need for something like a move set nerf.

also hi X I unquit lol and am having a salty time on the forum while I pvp hehe

Right, the "stall" in between swings still does urk me when I think about it. Though I'm sure From has learned enough from Dark Souls that something like this won't happen again. There will most likely be nerfs, but hopefully not this great.

Yup, I recently came back as well. I'm hoping things are sodium-free once I start PvPing again.

I'm also unhappy about the nerf, I agree that it was most used to stunlock R1 spam and nothing more, but now people simply changed to another class weapon to do that, as pointed already, fixed basicly nothing.

My standard strategy with GS now its to R1, back off, dodge/block, R1 again, if stunlocked follow up with R2 or whatever you have stamina for, back, repeat. its more or less the same idea I had when using Ultra GS, except less damage per hit and just a bit faster attack. I honestly don't know how to "combo" with GS since everyone can easily predict its moveset, you take the best GS player in the world against a R1 gold tracer poise spammer and they have almost equal chance to win

Carphil wrote:I'm also unhappy about the nerf, I agree that it was most used to stunlock R1 spam and nothing more, but now people simply changed to another class weapon to do that, as pointed already, fixed basicly nothing.

My standard strategy with GS now its to R1, back off, dodge/block, R1 again, if stunlocked follow up with R2 or whatever you have stamina for, back, repeat. its more or less the same idea I had when using Ultra GS, except less damage per hit and just a bit faster attack. I honestly don't know how to "combo" with GS since everyone can easily predict its moveset, you take the best GS player in the world against a R1 gold tracer poise spammer and they have almost equal chance to win

I'd assume the best greatsword user in the world would have no problem with an R1 spammer. I consider myself only an above average GS user and I have no problems with poise stacked Gold Tracer users.

I believe the main problem with the great sword was not just it's stun-locking capability/swing speed...the real problem was theses things ADDED with the massive damage output of the great-sword class

....oh, you stun-locked me for just two hits....so what, it's all good....oh wait...1200 damage...

You're bothered by an old nerf to what is currently one of the best weapon classes in the entire game? 
Greatswords still stun long enough to tear someone apart, and the combos you can do with them are insane. I'm pretty sure them having the capability to stunlock like a curved sword is bad for gameplay in comparison to how they are now.

From what you are saying im guessing that you most likely used some sort of a greatsword before the nerf and now you are just not as effective with the weapon.

In my opinion, the swing speed of greatswords was too fast this caused them to be too powerful and too used for its stunlock abilities, the nerf made that a little bit harder without making the weapon type useless so I have no idea what is the rant about.

As for curved swords being better at stunlocking. In my opinion that is incorrect, yes I would agree that with mindless R1 spam it is easyer to stunlock someone with a curved sword but when it comes to strategic gameplay greatswords are better. Also if you feel too noble to toggle then you can just parry.

Anyway you are talking about a mechanic that is broken and unless this is a rant about you not being able to stunlock someone into infinity with a high speed greatsword because of toggleing and the nerf then there really is no point.

also greatsword 1hR1 stunlock is only a bit slower than curved swords while dealing the (roughly) same poise dmg. all with much higher dmg output and all-around better moveset (running attack, bastard; claymore; manserpent and flamberge 2hR2s stunlock and deadangle). if you know your way around the greatswords are as deadly as ever even after the patch.

Aigaios wrote:From what you are saying im guessing that you most likely used some sort of a greatsword before the nerf and now you are just not as effective with the weapon.

In my opinion, the swing speed of greatswords was too fast this caused them to be too powerful and too used for its stunlock abilities, the nerf made that a little bit harder without making the weapon type useless so I have no idea what is the rant about.

As for curved swords being better at stunlocking. In my opinion that is incorrect, yes I would agree that with mindless R1 spam it is easyer to stunlock someone with a curved sword but when it comes to strategic gameplay greatswords are better. Also if you feel too noble to toggle then you can just parry.

Anyway you are talking about a mechanic that is broken and unless this is a rant about you not being able to stunlock someone into infinity with a high speed greatsword because of toggleing and the nerf then there really is no point.

My gripe isn't "why can't it stun lock D:" lol any good player used the swing time of the great sword before as a free parry because EVERYONE just spammed r1 so seeing a greatsword user meant a free parry lol. The move set nerf made it so this was changed and as it has been said it forced players to experiment with the other possibilities of the weapon class. Yes, the flamberge (almost un-used) rose and the claymore changed its use. the problem I have is that in a game so focused on mechanics that feel natural the change is jarring and reminds you "oh yea im playing a game" it breaks immersion. Also, I never said I don't toggle escape I just feel that the fact that as a whole the community goes "toggle escape glitch is good in my book" but "oh no greatsword too op nerf it nerf it!" is a weird situation. In a game where players should be acclimated to having to adapt to a situation they as a whole said "omg too hard nerf plz" and went against the whole Souls series mind set.  The nerf to greatswords just meant that people found a new stun locking weapon, it didnt change anything. My current build uses a zweihander and a switch off man serpant and moonlight greatsword. When using either the msgs or the mlgs there is always a moment where I'm reminded while I play that the movements no longer feel natural. I am hoping that the alternating move sets of the upcoming game fix this

XuitusTheGreat wrote:

Aigaios wrote:From what you are saying im guessing that you most likely used some sort of a greatsword before the nerf and now you are just not as effective with the weapon.

In my opinion, the swing speed of greatswords was too fast this caused them to be too powerful and too used for its stunlock abilities, the nerf made that a little bit harder without making the weapon type useless so I have no idea what is the rant about.

As for curved swords being better at stunlocking. In my opinion that is incorrect, yes I would agree that with mindless R1 spam it is easyer to stunlock someone with a curved sword but when it comes to strategic gameplay greatswords are better. Also if you feel too noble to toggle then you can just parry.

Anyway you are talking about a mechanic that is broken and unless this is a rant about you not being able to stunlock someone into infinity with a high speed greatsword because of toggleing and the nerf then there really is no point.

My gripe isn't "why can't it stun lock D:" lol any good player used the swing time of the great sword before as a free parry because EVERYONE just spammed r1 so seeing a greatsword user meant a free parry lol. The move set nerf made it so this was changed and as it has been said it forced players to experiment with the other possibilities of the weapon class. Yes, the flamberge (almost un-used) rose and the claymore changed its use. the problem I have is that in a game so focused on mechanics that feel natural the change is jarring and reminds you "oh yea im playing a game" it breaks immersion. Also, I never said I don't toggle escape I just feel that the fact that as a whole the community goes "toggle escape glitch is good in my book" but "oh no greatsword too op nerf it nerf it!" is a weird situation. In a game where players should be acclimated to having to adapt to a situation they as a whole said "omg too hard nerf plz" and went against the whole Souls series mind set.  The nerf to greatswords just meant that people found a new stun locking weapon, it didnt change anything. My current build uses a zweihander and a switch off man serpant and moonlight greatsword. When using either the msgs or the mlgs there is always a moment where I'm reminded while I play that the movements no longer feel natural. I am hoping that the alternating move sets of the upcoming game fix this

this, as mentioned, the nerf did nothing but forced R1 spammers to change to another weapon class. Of course greatswords are still one of the best classes, but the nerf was not necessary. take the GSoA for example, I would like to see you try to combo with that thing. R1 its very, very slow, can't connect a follow R1, R2 is completely out of the question, rolling R1 its easily parried, so what to do? I personally abuse its massive range to keep R1, roll back, R1, roll back til dead, because there's literally nothing else to do.

XuitusTheGreat wrote:

Aigaios wrote:From what you are saying im guessing that you most likely used some sort of a greatsword before the nerf and now you are just not as effective with the weapon.

In my opinion, the swing speed of greatswords was too fast this caused them to be too powerful and too used for its stunlock abilities, the nerf made that a little bit harder without making the weapon type useless so I have no idea what is the rant about.

As for curved swords being better at stunlocking. In my opinion that is incorrect, yes I would agree that with mindless R1 spam it is easyer to stunlock someone with a curved sword but when it comes to strategic gameplay greatswords are better. Also if you feel too noble to toggle then you can just parry.

Anyway you are talking about a mechanic that is broken and unless this is a rant about you not being able to stunlock someone into infinity with a high speed greatsword because of toggleing and the nerf then there really is no point.

My gripe isn't "why can't it stun lock D:" lol any good player used the swing time of the great sword before as a free parry because EVERYONE just spammed r1 so seeing a greatsword user meant a free parry lol. The move set nerf made it so this was changed and as it has been said it forced players to experiment with the other possibilities of the weapon class. Yes, the flamberge (almost un-used) rose and the claymore changed its use. the problem I have is that in a game so focused on mechanics that feel natural the change is jarring and reminds you "oh yea im playing a game" it breaks immersion. Also, I never said I don't toggle escape I just feel that the fact that as a whole the community goes "toggle escape glitch is good in my book" but "oh no greatsword too op nerf it nerf it!" is a weird situation. In a game where players should be acclimated to having to adapt to a situation they as a whole said "omg too hard nerf plz" and went against the whole Souls series mind set.  The nerf to greatswords just meant that people found a new stun locking weapon, it didnt change anything. My current build uses a zweihander and a switch off man serpant and moonlight greatsword. When using either the msgs or the mlgs there is always a moment where I'm reminded while I play that the movements no longer feel natural. I am hoping that the alternating move sets of the upcoming game fix this

So you think that the super fast swing speed of the greatswords was way more natural then the current swing speed of greatswords?

Aigaios wrote:

So you think that the super fast swing speed of the greatswords was way more natural then the current swing speed of greatswords?

That's what I'm wondering, has anyone here even swung a sword in real-life... and was it a sword as big as the "greatsword class"

I think the point Xuitus is trying to make is that a hit from a weapon in the greatsword class should lead to an easier "spam" combo than a weapon in the curved sword class for example.

In a real fight, I'd imagine that a few swings from a greatsword would stun or stagger me much easier than a scimitar or a falchion. This doesn't necessarily mean that the swing speed from the greatsword would need to be faster to keep me locked down.

The greatsword nerf added a weird stop in between attacks when chaining R1 attacks. The animations are no longer as smooth as they once were in my opinion.

The Letter X wrote:I think the point Xuitus is trying to make is that a hit from a weapon in the greatsword class should lead to an easier "spam" combo than a weapon in the curved sword class for example.

In a real fight, I'd imagine that a few swings from a greatsword would stun or stagger me much easier than a scimitar or a falchion. This doesn't necessarily mean that the swing speed from the greatsword would need to be faster to keep me locked down.

The greatsword nerf added a weird stop in between attacks when chaining R1 attacks. The animations are no longer as smooth as they once were in my opinion.

I think you would get stun-locked pretty much no matter what. I still believe that weapon weight itself should add to poise, (if you go off dark souls stats, I think it should be like 15 poise for ninja flip, 25 poise for fast roll, 45 poise for mid roll, 60 poise for fat, and 80 for encumbered.) (note these numbers are kinda off the top of my head, so they may not be fair.)

Being stunlocked would depend on what kind of armor one would be wearing, and in this case a greatsword's weight should be beneficial to that cause.

The Letter X wrote:I think the point Xuitus is trying to make is that a hit from a weapon in the greatsword class should lead to an easier "spam" combo than a weapon in the curved sword class for example.

In a real fight, I'd imagine that a few swings from a greatsword would stun or stagger me much easier than a scimitar or a falchion. This doesn't necessarily mean that the swing speed from the greatsword would need to be faster to keep me locked down.

The greatsword nerf added a weird stop in between attacks when chaining R1 attacks. The animations are no longer as smooth as they once were in my opinion.

^ pretty much my whole point its the weird "pause" after the first swing that just makes me kinda cringe

Soul of Stray Demon wrote:That's what I'm wondering, has anyone here even swung a sword in real-life... and was it a sword as big as the "greatsword class"

I know I'm not among the previous posters in the thread but I have, actually. Greatswords and ultra greatswords.

The time it takes to make the first swing with them in-game looks pretty accurate to me but the follow ups are no good. After the first swing you want to rotate the sword and yourself to bring it back to where it started and keep the kinetic energy and momentum of the heavy sword going*, making the second (and third, fourth, fifth etc.) strike much faster than the first one. I haven't seen any footage of zweihanders from DkS2 yet but if they were more like this then it'd be so cool.

*Of course, this involves not driving the weapon right into the ground as is usually the case in Dark Souls.

-swings sword- oh man I ran it into the dirt...ok i got this... -swings again- CRAP!

Montante wrote:

Soul of Stray Demon wrote:That's what I'm wondering, has anyone here even swung a sword in real-life... and was it a sword as big as the "greatsword class"

I know I'm not among the previous posters in the thread but I have, actually. Greatswords and ultra greatswords.

The time it takes to make the first swing with them in-game looks pretty accurate to me but the follow ups are no good. After the first swing you want to rotate the sword and yourself to bring it back to where it started and keep the kinetic energy and momentum of the heavy sword going*, making the second (and third, fourth, fifth etc.) strike much faster than the first one. I haven't seen any footage of zweihanders from DkS2 yet but if they were more like this then it'd be so cool.

*Of course, this involves not driving the weapon right into the ground as is usually the case in Dark Souls.

Awesome! You have the life I ever wanted

A traditional Zweihänder is a surprisingly fast weapon when used with proper technique. Holding it by the hilt with your main-hand, and by the ricasso (area between the primary crossguard and the "spikes".) with your off-hand allows you to make great use of the weapon's weight.
Economy of motion is the codeword here.