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    Catalysts: TCC or Manus?

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    Post by Christoph Sat Sep 08, 2012 11:14 am

    I were searching in the web for a few hours, but I didn't get a useful answer: I'm playing this game on my Xbox 360 and informed myself a little bit about the new expansion. Everything is fine, but I couldn't find out if the Manus Catalyst is better than the TCC for players at my SL (711).

    Please help me with that question.

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    Post by ublug Sat Sep 08, 2012 11:43 am

    From the latest discoveries made about the manus catalyst: With high strength it should be stronger for the new dark spells, tcc is still the best for normal magic.
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    Post by Christoph Sat Sep 08, 2012 11:57 am

    So I need use both to use all magic spells effective? Well, there goes my possibility to use DWGR... Still, thanks for helping.
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    Post by WhatDoesThePendantDo? Sat Sep 08, 2012 12:07 pm

    I would probably still use Logan's Cat for most things because it's just the more practical option.
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    Post by dancash1808 Sat Sep 08, 2012 2:00 pm

    Umm no you dont need to use both. at your level either will do the job of both plenty well enough. although I dont know what kinda PvP you will be getting at 711 and PvE is a walkover with oolacile let alone Manus/TCC lol
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    Post by Christoph Sat Sep 08, 2012 3:17 pm

    Well, I know a bug to make my lvl go back to 99, but still has it's old stats. Getting an opponent wouldn't be a problem. twisted

    The sad thing is that my Crystal spells only do low dmg with TCC (1300-1700), so I kinda need the TCC do do at least a bit dmg in PvE.
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    Post by ChizFreak Sat Sep 08, 2012 3:27 pm

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    Post by Christoph Sat Sep 08, 2012 5:19 pm


    Thanks for the vids. Bat sadly, after searching in the forums, I found out that dark spells are useless thanks to the silver pentant...
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    Post by Wrenchfarm Sat Sep 08, 2012 6:23 pm

    Christoph wrote:

    Thanks for the vids. Bat sadly, after searching in the forums, I found out that dark spells are useless thanks to the silver pentant...

    Not really. There are plenty of people out there who don't have the Necklace ready in their hotbar and even more who have it but not the reactions or presence of mind to use it. Maybe as the game ages and people get used to it Dark Magic will be useless, but right now you'll still catch plenty with it.
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    Post by Christoph Sat Sep 08, 2012 6:31 pm

    True... Still, isn't it funny that they nerfed so much items and then create something that can nullify damage? Well, first item to be nerfed next patch...
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    Post by Nurgle523 Sat Sep 08, 2012 7:51 pm

    Nothing is nerfed.. Lordran is a strange place where time flows differently and perhaps your equipment suddenly age or reshape a little bit..
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    Post by ChizFreak Sat Sep 08, 2012 8:32 pm

    Yeah few people have the silver pendant in their hotbar, and even if they have, it's better to dodge the attacks because using the Silver Pendant leaves you vulnerable to a Soul Spear.
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    Post by Christoph Sat Sep 08, 2012 8:41 pm

    ChizFreak wrote:Yeah few people have the silver pendant in their hotbar, and even if they have, it's better to dodge the attacks because using the Silver Pendant leaves you vulnerable to a Soul Spear.

    But if you use it while the enemy casts, the animation ends before he can use the SS or CSS.
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    Post by Xskulled Sun Sep 09, 2012 4:59 am

    Christoph wrote:Well, I know a bug to make my lvl go back to 99, but still has it's old stats. Getting an opponent wouldn't be a problem. twisted

    You guys are seriously giving this guy advice?

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    Post by xterrorx Sun Sep 09, 2012 5:07 am

    Christoph wrote:Well, I know a bug to make my lvl go back to 99, but still has it's old stats. Getting an opponent wouldn't be a problem. twisted

    The sad thing is that my Crystal spells only do low dmg with TCC (1300-1700), so I kinda need the TCC do do at least a bit dmg in PvE.



    Dumbass that's not a "bug", that's a trainer. It's sad you have to cheat to play the game. Really sad.
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    Post by Christoph Sun Sep 09, 2012 10:13 am

    xterrorx wrote:
    Christoph wrote:Well, I know a bug to make my lvl go back to 99, but still has it's old stats. Getting an opponent wouldn't be a problem. twisted

    The sad thing is that my Crystal spells only do low dmg with TCC (1300-1700), so I kinda need the TCC do do at least a bit dmg in PvE.



    Dumbass that's not a "bug", that's a trainer. It's sad you have to cheat to play the game. Really sad.

    Derp. I don't even get stat/soul benefits from doing this, so why do you care?
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    Post by BackstabFisherman Sun Sep 09, 2012 8:23 pm

    How is the Manus catalyst stronger? I used the updated character planner and the Manus has 295 Magadjust compared to the TCC which has 315 max.
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    Post by ublug Sun Sep 09, 2012 8:57 pm

    BackstabFisherman wrote:How is the Manus catalyst stronger? I used the updated character planner and the Manus has 295 Magadjust compared to the TCC which has 315 max.
    It gives additional damage from the strength stat, but only for the new dark sorceries afaik.
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    Post by Uriseph Mon Sep 10, 2012 7:21 pm

    Forgive me; I'm a little confused. Do you even need int passed the req. for the manus catalyst in order to strengthen the dark sorceries or just str?
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    Post by ublug Mon Sep 10, 2012 11:56 pm

    Uriseph wrote:Forgive me; I'm a little confused. Do you even need int passed the req. for the manus catalyst in order to strengthen the dark sorceries or just str?
    Both stats will strengthen them, this applies to most of the catalysts if I have understood correctly. But the manus cat also has a B rating in str, which gives strength a larger damage boost than the other catalysts.
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    Post by Phoenix Rising Tue Sep 11, 2012 12:10 am

    ublug wrote:
    Uriseph wrote:Forgive me; I'm a little confused. Do you even need int passed the req. for the manus catalyst in order to strengthen the dark sorceries or just str?
    Both stats will strengthen them, this applies to most of the catalysts if I have understood correctly. But the manus cat also has a B rating in str, which gives strength a larger damage boost than the other catalysts.

    Doesn't the int stat boost mag adj, and the str stat boost the melee attack?
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    Post by SnailsAndSlugs Tue Sep 11, 2012 12:13 am

    I personally don't think str has anything to do with the new spells. str only scales the melee damage of the catalyst. I can say this from empirical evidence. I had a dex-int build that I turned into a quality-int build. taking my str from 16-40 didn't produce a noticeable change in the damage i get from casting persuers and dark bead.
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    Post by Uriseph Tue Sep 11, 2012 2:37 am

    SnailsAndSlugs wrote:I personally don't think str has anything to do with the new spells. str only scales the melee damage of the catalyst. I can say this from empirical evidence. I had a dex-int build that I turned into a quality-int build. taking my str from 16-40 didn't produce a noticeable change in the damage i get from casting persuers and dark bead.

    This makes sense to me. The manus catalyst would be more effective at delivering the new sorceries than the TCC otherwise there wouldn't be a reason for it to exist. I'm now believing that str actually has nothing to do with it unless it involves the melee attack. Thanks for the clarification.
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    Post by WyrmHero Tue Sep 11, 2012 2:43 am

    Just like the Pyro Flame, Int only increases the melee attack.
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    Post by Brother Mojo Wed Sep 12, 2012 6:59 pm

    So, a friend of mine did some tests with the catalyst.

    He tried using the Oolacile Ivory Catalyst and the Manus Catalyst to cast Dark Orb at 16 int and varying strength levels (starting at 14, of course, to be able to wield the Manus Catalyst). He cast it on the Eternal Dragon to have an easy target to get damage numbers with that wouldn't fight back or anything.

    With the Oolacile Ivory Catalyst, he did 259 damage consistently. With the Manus Catalyst, he did damage around 150ish at first, increasing eventually to 259 damage when he hit 99 strength.



    So it seems like the strength scaling definitely exists and matters, but at minimum int isn't enough to outclass the Oolacile Ivory Catalyst. We didn't try with the Oolacile Catalyst, which would likely be better if it also applies strength scaling; we were just focusing on the Manus Catalyst at the time. Speaking of which, he tested the Manus Catalyst's regular Magic Adjust at all int levels and I updated the table on the wiki.

    It outclasses the Oolacile Ivory Catalyst at 23 int (though only barely) and continues to outclass everything until the TCC gets involved at 32, so for a medium int build based around something like CMW, it could be worthwhile. However, the cast reductions compared to the Oolacile Ivory Catalyst probably aren't worth it unless you're using the abyss sorceries too.

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