I’ve put a lot of thought into this and looked pretty deep (perhaps too deep) into Dark Souls lore and item descriptions. I’m an analyst at my day to day job so it’s very likely that I’m over thinking this. I’ll first give some definitions that I think are the most important to the Dark Souls lore. I’m not giving the definitions because I think you don’t know what they mean I’m doing so to show what the game is saying they mean.
This is how we see these words by our definitions.
Immortal- Not mortal; not liable or subject to death; undying
Undead-no longer alive but animated by a supernatural force, technically dead but reanimated
Time- duration regarded as belonging to the present life as distinct from the life to come or from eternity; finite duration
However, I believe the Dark Souls world goes something like this
Immortal- Not mortal; or subject to death by the passage of time. However, can be killed.
Undead-Not mortal or immortal. Meaning time degrades their physical bodies and can still cause their death. However, upon that death whether it is by someone else’s hand or the passage of time they are reanimated. **edit Long story short- Undead-meaning Without true death, they can not die.
Time- has the same traditional meaning. However, time is a lot more relative to the life/death cycle and the meanings I’ve given above.
So from the intro, we know that nothing existed before the first flame except, grey crags, fog, arch trees, and dragons. Because of the nature of the dragons (being immortal) you could also say this period of time is without time as in it’s not necessary because everything is immortal. So what relationship do the dragons and Arch trees have with each other? Let’s look at some item descriptions and some names from the game.
Dragon Head Stone: "Stone imbued with the power of dragons. Rite of apostles of the ancient dragons. Gain head of dragon. Emit dragon breath.
The dragon apostles seek ascendence of life itself, attainable by transformation into an ancient dragon.
This rite is only one step, but it cannot be reversed until death."
Dragon Torso Stone: "Stone imbued with the power of the dragons. Rite of apostles of the ancient dragons. Gain torso of dragon. Roar like a dragon.
The dragon apostles seek transcendence of life itself, attainable by transformation into an ancient dragon. This rite is only one step, but it cannot be reversed until death."
Dragon Scale: "Dragon scale for reinforcing dragon weapons. Peeled from an ancient dragon.
A dragon is inseparable from its scales, and the transcendent apostles, who seek the perpetuity of the ancient dragons, have crossed the very end of the earth to seek this invaluable treasure."
Intro Scale Reference: Gwyn's mighty bolts peeled apart their stone scales.
Dragon Greatsword: "This sword, one of the rare dragon weapons, came from the tail of the stone dragon of Ash Lake, descendant of the ancient dragons."
"Its great mystical power will be unleashed when wielded with two hands."
Demon’s Great Hammer: "Demon weapon built from the stone archtrees. Used by lesser demons at North Undead Asylum.
This hammer is imbued with no special power, but will merrily beat foes to a pulp, provided you have the strength to wield it."
From these descriptions we can see a few things. 1. The Dragons and Arch Trees were both made from stone, meaning they are one and the same or one was created by the other. From these descriptions too we can infer that the dragon’s head/torso stone come from Arch Trees, which leads me to believe that the Arch Trees came before the dragons. Hence, the “Arch” in their names.
2. Humans can become dragons; until that person dies then they return to human form (is that where all these dead bodies scattered about came from?).
3. The dragon at Ash Lake was more than likely originally human.
4. I also think it’s strange that in the dragon scale description, it goes from saying it was peeled from an ancient dragon, to a dragon is inseparable from its scales… Does it mean the dragon’s soul is inseparable? Because obviously the scale was removed from the body of the dragon. Moving on..
I want to speculate farther, just before we watch the intro so here we go. So what created the first flame? There are only trees, dragons and fog chilling about… What of these could have caused a fire? Not just any fire a magical one that created life, and death etc.. Well… a dragon breathing fire obviously (amirite?).. Was there a fight? Did one dragon kill another disrupting the balance that was in place, which caused the first flame and the creation of life and death itself? To cause the first flame it must have been a powerful dragon or one of the first. Or, did a dragon grow tired of the “immortal” life and off himself? Or are the dragon’s truly not immortal, and the most ancient of them died, so the others burned his body in light of the occasion. Either way, if a dragon is inseparable from its scales and those scales were burned what would be the outcome? The release of the dragon’s souls? Which would then form life, the lords souls etc? Sorry for all of the “OR” in that section lol.
It’s time to watch the intro =) http://darksoulswiki.wikispaces.com/Lore
So you could say that the flame is time itself, because before it, the land was timeless. This also explains why everything is created when the first flame appears. Once time is established life and death can be measured. With time comes light and with light comes life, light also creates darkness and with it death. I really don’t think all of this happened as fast as we see it in the intro. For example, Gwyn has an uncle All-Father Loyd. How would someone have family if you just came into existence? The people we see in the intro are the primordial humans. Though they saw the flame I do not believe they instantly found the souls inside of the first flame. It had to be a while later. This could also explain why Gywn and the others have such a hatred for the dragons. They had to live with them, and with more humans being born they had to expand and interact with these dragons. Weather these dragon’s attacked them first or not who knows, but I believe Gywn was manipulated by the primordial serpents to start the war.
Also, notice how big the flame is in the back, we are seeing it at its peak. In addition, the Lords Souls and Dark Soul come from this flame but are also flames themselves, to me meaning they are one and the same, time itself. So a person with a Lords Soul would be immortal because with that soul they can control time in a way, but not like rewinding/fast forwarding think sustainment of their physical body. Just look at Gywn in the intro, he looks tired, almost hollowed. This is where my theory about the Lords Souls and Dark Soul come into play.
The Lords Souls are the key to immortally for humans, light equaling life. However, the Dark Soul is the key to maintaining and sustaining that power, dark equaling death. Like Yin and Yang you can’t have light (life) without darkness (death). If one held both the Lord’s Souls and the Dark Soul they would be truly without end, with the ability to control life and death (time). Therefore, being composed the way they were, the users of the Lords Soul could not remain immortal because their bodies were deteriorating. Meaning, without the power of the Dark Soul/Humanity they would eventually exhaust the power of their Lords Soul and would die. This to me means that in the beginning, before the Dark Soul was split no one has the Darksign (this includes the Pygmy). Once the Dark Soul was split by the primordial serpents the Dark Sign spread and caused un-death among the common folk. This is why hollowing happens the way it does.
If you have a strong will/soul when you die and revive you would not be totally hollow. Yes, you would have lost your humanity (the darksign absorbs it but where does it go?), the sustaining/maintaining power, having a much higher chance of hollowing. But if you use the power of your soul you would remain sane, until that power runs out or you find some more humanity…
So, what do the primordial serpents have to do with all of this… They may have come into existence with the first flame or be more ancient but either way everything leads back to them. If we assume this item description is talking about the primordial serpents……
Covetous Gold Serpent Ring: “The Serpent is an imperfect dragon and symbol of the Undead. Its habit of devouring pretty even larger than itself has led to an association of gluttony. This gold ring, engraved with the serpent, boosts it’s wearer’s item discovery, so that more items can be amassed”
The imperfect dragon is the symbol of the Undead. My question is why? I think the gluttony reference gives us a hint. The Uroborus, the snake eating its own tail. I know Wikipedia isn’t the greatest source of knowledge; however, it’s something I know we can all get to and see even at work, etc. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ouroboros Take a look at the picture, does that look familiar? The Dark Sign to me is this very picture. When Dark Souls loads up, we see that ring of fire make its circle and sit in between the title and I can’t help but imagine the Uroborus. One or all of the serpents created the Dark Sign when they split the Dark Soul on purpose or by accident but why? If we assume they created it on purpose it would seem they are attempting to create an endless supply of souls (food) for themselves. But they miscalculated, once the person goes hollow (empty) there are no more souls for them to gain. Thus why Frampt would want you to re-link the fire, destroy the Dark Soul make souls flow again. Kaathe on the other hand is up to something else… and I have no quite figured it out yet… Either way I’m totally convinced this is all happening because they are attempting to feed themselves.
***DLC speculation coming after it drops =) I’ll tell you then
Moving on to something else lol
If what I’ve said about the Lords Souls and Dark Soul reign true then this would explain why the Witch of Izalith attempted to recreate the first flame and why it failed. Over the passing of time, Gwyn and the others along with the flame started to lose their power. With the Dark Soul, the power to sustain/maintain, out of their reach (due to the splitting) she attempted to recreate the first flame which; in turn, would recreate the Lords Souls and the Dark Soul. This is what I believe distorted the “flow of time” that we read about on the white soap stone. If time already exists what happens if you attempt to create time again? Chaos and the distortion of the current time, thus creating alternative planes of existence. The time we exist in is a direct result of this, and if we listen to Dusk we get a hint about where we really are...
Dusk: “From my home I was taken, and banish’d to a plane of distortion. It was there, that thou came to my rescue”
The plane of time that we exist in is a place where people can be banished to or for their own protection or punishment.
***More DLC speculation here I’ll post it up then =)
This is getting long so more to come in the future. I plan on putting all of my Dark Souls story thoughts into this thread. I’m trying to get very specific with the way I think, which brings about a big problem. The more specific you try to get the more likely you’re wrong lol. So please don’t disregard everything I say because of one single point, there could be a sliver of true in my lore hunting. My ideas are also evolving as I dig into the lore, so I'm not saying I'm 100% correct either. Thanks for reading and I’d love to see what you guys think about all of this.
This is how we see these words by our definitions.
Immortal- Not mortal; not liable or subject to death; undying
Undead-no longer alive but animated by a supernatural force, technically dead but reanimated
Time- duration regarded as belonging to the present life as distinct from the life to come or from eternity; finite duration
However, I believe the Dark Souls world goes something like this
Immortal- Not mortal; or subject to death by the passage of time. However, can be killed.
Undead-Not mortal or immortal. Meaning time degrades their physical bodies and can still cause their death. However, upon that death whether it is by someone else’s hand or the passage of time they are reanimated. **edit Long story short- Undead-meaning Without true death, they can not die.
Time- has the same traditional meaning. However, time is a lot more relative to the life/death cycle and the meanings I’ve given above.
So from the intro, we know that nothing existed before the first flame except, grey crags, fog, arch trees, and dragons. Because of the nature of the dragons (being immortal) you could also say this period of time is without time as in it’s not necessary because everything is immortal. So what relationship do the dragons and Arch trees have with each other? Let’s look at some item descriptions and some names from the game.
Dragon Head Stone: "Stone imbued with the power of dragons. Rite of apostles of the ancient dragons. Gain head of dragon. Emit dragon breath.
The dragon apostles seek ascendence of life itself, attainable by transformation into an ancient dragon.
This rite is only one step, but it cannot be reversed until death."
Dragon Torso Stone: "Stone imbued with the power of the dragons. Rite of apostles of the ancient dragons. Gain torso of dragon. Roar like a dragon.
The dragon apostles seek transcendence of life itself, attainable by transformation into an ancient dragon. This rite is only one step, but it cannot be reversed until death."
Dragon Scale: "Dragon scale for reinforcing dragon weapons. Peeled from an ancient dragon.
A dragon is inseparable from its scales, and the transcendent apostles, who seek the perpetuity of the ancient dragons, have crossed the very end of the earth to seek this invaluable treasure."
Intro Scale Reference: Gwyn's mighty bolts peeled apart their stone scales.
Dragon Greatsword: "This sword, one of the rare dragon weapons, came from the tail of the stone dragon of Ash Lake, descendant of the ancient dragons."
"Its great mystical power will be unleashed when wielded with two hands."
Demon’s Great Hammer: "Demon weapon built from the stone archtrees. Used by lesser demons at North Undead Asylum.
This hammer is imbued with no special power, but will merrily beat foes to a pulp, provided you have the strength to wield it."
From these descriptions we can see a few things. 1. The Dragons and Arch Trees were both made from stone, meaning they are one and the same or one was created by the other. From these descriptions too we can infer that the dragon’s head/torso stone come from Arch Trees, which leads me to believe that the Arch Trees came before the dragons. Hence, the “Arch” in their names.
2. Humans can become dragons; until that person dies then they return to human form (is that where all these dead bodies scattered about came from?).
3. The dragon at Ash Lake was more than likely originally human.
4. I also think it’s strange that in the dragon scale description, it goes from saying it was peeled from an ancient dragon, to a dragon is inseparable from its scales… Does it mean the dragon’s soul is inseparable? Because obviously the scale was removed from the body of the dragon. Moving on..
I want to speculate farther, just before we watch the intro so here we go. So what created the first flame? There are only trees, dragons and fog chilling about… What of these could have caused a fire? Not just any fire a magical one that created life, and death etc.. Well… a dragon breathing fire obviously (amirite?).. Was there a fight? Did one dragon kill another disrupting the balance that was in place, which caused the first flame and the creation of life and death itself? To cause the first flame it must have been a powerful dragon or one of the first. Or, did a dragon grow tired of the “immortal” life and off himself? Or are the dragon’s truly not immortal, and the most ancient of them died, so the others burned his body in light of the occasion. Either way, if a dragon is inseparable from its scales and those scales were burned what would be the outcome? The release of the dragon’s souls? Which would then form life, the lords souls etc? Sorry for all of the “OR” in that section lol.
It’s time to watch the intro =) http://darksoulswiki.wikispaces.com/Lore
So you could say that the flame is time itself, because before it, the land was timeless. This also explains why everything is created when the first flame appears. Once time is established life and death can be measured. With time comes light and with light comes life, light also creates darkness and with it death. I really don’t think all of this happened as fast as we see it in the intro. For example, Gwyn has an uncle All-Father Loyd. How would someone have family if you just came into existence? The people we see in the intro are the primordial humans. Though they saw the flame I do not believe they instantly found the souls inside of the first flame. It had to be a while later. This could also explain why Gywn and the others have such a hatred for the dragons. They had to live with them, and with more humans being born they had to expand and interact with these dragons. Weather these dragon’s attacked them first or not who knows, but I believe Gywn was manipulated by the primordial serpents to start the war.
Also, notice how big the flame is in the back, we are seeing it at its peak. In addition, the Lords Souls and Dark Soul come from this flame but are also flames themselves, to me meaning they are one and the same, time itself. So a person with a Lords Soul would be immortal because with that soul they can control time in a way, but not like rewinding/fast forwarding think sustainment of their physical body. Just look at Gywn in the intro, he looks tired, almost hollowed. This is where my theory about the Lords Souls and Dark Soul come into play.
The Lords Souls are the key to immortally for humans, light equaling life. However, the Dark Soul is the key to maintaining and sustaining that power, dark equaling death. Like Yin and Yang you can’t have light (life) without darkness (death). If one held both the Lord’s Souls and the Dark Soul they would be truly without end, with the ability to control life and death (time). Therefore, being composed the way they were, the users of the Lords Soul could not remain immortal because their bodies were deteriorating. Meaning, without the power of the Dark Soul/Humanity they would eventually exhaust the power of their Lords Soul and would die. This to me means that in the beginning, before the Dark Soul was split no one has the Darksign (this includes the Pygmy). Once the Dark Soul was split by the primordial serpents the Dark Sign spread and caused un-death among the common folk. This is why hollowing happens the way it does.
If you have a strong will/soul when you die and revive you would not be totally hollow. Yes, you would have lost your humanity (the darksign absorbs it but where does it go?), the sustaining/maintaining power, having a much higher chance of hollowing. But if you use the power of your soul you would remain sane, until that power runs out or you find some more humanity…
So, what do the primordial serpents have to do with all of this… They may have come into existence with the first flame or be more ancient but either way everything leads back to them. If we assume this item description is talking about the primordial serpents……
Covetous Gold Serpent Ring: “The Serpent is an imperfect dragon and symbol of the Undead. Its habit of devouring pretty even larger than itself has led to an association of gluttony. This gold ring, engraved with the serpent, boosts it’s wearer’s item discovery, so that more items can be amassed”
The imperfect dragon is the symbol of the Undead. My question is why? I think the gluttony reference gives us a hint. The Uroborus, the snake eating its own tail. I know Wikipedia isn’t the greatest source of knowledge; however, it’s something I know we can all get to and see even at work, etc. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ouroboros Take a look at the picture, does that look familiar? The Dark Sign to me is this very picture. When Dark Souls loads up, we see that ring of fire make its circle and sit in between the title and I can’t help but imagine the Uroborus. One or all of the serpents created the Dark Sign when they split the Dark Soul on purpose or by accident but why? If we assume they created it on purpose it would seem they are attempting to create an endless supply of souls (food) for themselves. But they miscalculated, once the person goes hollow (empty) there are no more souls for them to gain. Thus why Frampt would want you to re-link the fire, destroy the Dark Soul make souls flow again. Kaathe on the other hand is up to something else… and I have no quite figured it out yet… Either way I’m totally convinced this is all happening because they are attempting to feed themselves.
***DLC speculation coming after it drops =) I’ll tell you then
Moving on to something else lol
If what I’ve said about the Lords Souls and Dark Soul reign true then this would explain why the Witch of Izalith attempted to recreate the first flame and why it failed. Over the passing of time, Gwyn and the others along with the flame started to lose their power. With the Dark Soul, the power to sustain/maintain, out of their reach (due to the splitting) she attempted to recreate the first flame which; in turn, would recreate the Lords Souls and the Dark Soul. This is what I believe distorted the “flow of time” that we read about on the white soap stone. If time already exists what happens if you attempt to create time again? Chaos and the distortion of the current time, thus creating alternative planes of existence. The time we exist in is a direct result of this, and if we listen to Dusk we get a hint about where we really are...
Dusk: “From my home I was taken, and banish’d to a plane of distortion. It was there, that thou came to my rescue”
The plane of time that we exist in is a place where people can be banished to or for their own protection or punishment.
***More DLC speculation here I’ll post it up then =)
This is getting long so more to come in the future. I plan on putting all of my Dark Souls story thoughts into this thread. I’m trying to get very specific with the way I think, which brings about a big problem. The more specific you try to get the more likely you’re wrong lol. So please don’t disregard everything I say because of one single point, there could be a sliver of true in my lore hunting. My ideas are also evolving as I dig into the lore, so I'm not saying I'm 100% correct either. Thanks for reading and I’d love to see what you guys think about all of this.
Last edited by Deathsitexxi on Tue Oct 16, 2012 11:37 pm; edited 3 times in total