Rhea Idea (possible pendant connected)

It occurred weird (to me) at first that defeating some NPCs yielded their equipment in a location other than where you beat them. For examples; Jeremiah invades near the (cages?) in Painted World, armor is by Priscilla. Leeroy is defeated just after leaving the darkness in ToG but armor is by Nito, Kirk is killed just about everywhere but armor drops by the White Spider, and Lautrec is defeated in his world but Armor is in yours. Beatrice, a friendly, drops her equipment in Valley of Drakes but helps in other areas. So my theory, which I doubt will have a newsflash for anyone, is that many of the NPCs are phantoms (surprised? I didn't think so) and their armor drops are where they "actually" died, not where you knocked them off.

So.....I just did ToG in NG+ and noticed a conversation detail I missed in NG, probably because I was less Rhea-centric back then in my naive Dark Souls youth. When discussing the fate of her pals, Rhea refers to them as either "Brave Warriors" or "Brave Souls" I forget which one. When checking the corpses nearby, two of them have (cue dramatic conspiracy music).....a Soul of a Brave Warrior. The third corpse has the Skull Lantern of course. In pure wild speculation form, here goes. Of the three in that group, you might expect the leader (Rhea) to hold the lantern to guide the way. This is also likely as it's my impression the two warriors were there for her protection. This leads me to believe that Rhea is already dead with the others. Looking waaaaay too into the dialogue, she starts talking like she failed in her quest. However, I would expect Rhea to have been voted "Most Likely to be a Martyr" in the Maiden High Yearbook. Why would she give up after the loss of her guards? Shouldn't she want to continue to proceed to justify their sacrifice? And I thought she was going for the Rite of Kindling, something we found before reaching ToG.

Please feel free to shoot holes all through this as this is just yet another attempt to figure this crazy story out. To start the hole shooting...sounds bad I know....I can think of two issues with the whole "Rhea is dead" thing.

Firstly, the Maiden set in the Duke's archive. If armor drops indicate where a "real" death occurred then this could indicate that Rhea made it out of ToG/Catacombs alive and was abducted and died in prison. With the Maiden speculation in Seath's prison though, it could be the armor of a different Maiden. Also, I believe I read you can get a Maiden set after you beat Gwyndolin meaning that perhaps lots of Maidens have lost their life in Lordran (plus Anastacia's armor looks like sooty Maiden gear). Maybe Maiden armor(s) are red herrings.

Secondly, that darn wacky pendant thing and this one's a twofer. If Rhea didn't make it out alive, why would the pendant drop after her assassination? Also, why should Petrus kill her if she's already dead? Petrus might "assassinate" phantom Rhea as he considers her a failure and wants to remove all traces of this....OR....he wants to cover up for some possibly cowardly action in ToG/Catacombs. I killed Petrus before I saved Rhea so feel free to tear this one up as I completely forgot what his take is on the whole business. So finally, why does she drop the pendant after her "assassination?" A couple of theories here too as the pendant seems to be tied to memories. Maybe this church is linked to Rhea's memory and is special in some way, leading to the drop of a unique item. Perhaps something like the last good memory she has before the group's descent to death in the ToG. Where they first appear is near the elevator for this church so maybe they spent some time there. Or, just like Petrus may have wanted to cover his tracks, maybe Rhea wanted her secrets and memory to live on, and drops the pendant.

Closing thoughts, maybe the pendant is the suggested "gift" item because From deliberately has the wrong in game description to make it more mysterious. The suggestion would lead people to at least consider it as a gift, thereby reading the real description.

The three carcasses you state are interesting. However, you msut understand the mechanic of rivival, in which case a being gets revived at a Bonfire. Since their are no Bonfires at the bottom of the pit, it is hard to say if they truly did die. As it is, other characters such as Lautrec, Kirk, and others show obvious places of death. However, the clerics and the maiden does not have enough proof for such regards. And as to if they are phantoms or not, it is hard for the dead to become phantoms, when the undead are the ones that allow phantomization to other worlds, not the dead. Otherwise, the other ideas still stand.

As for the Pendant... everything is deliberate. The pendant has its own clues and thoughts of such things, and is 'Special'. You may not be able to achieve things such as use as an offering, or to sue it as a ring or such, but it is, by all else, special. It is, in fact a key, although it does not unlock anything physical. Instead, it unlocks the truth, and ties the link between rhea, the forest covenant, the Gwyndolin, The Darkmoon, the Occults of the Painted World, and above all the God of War. It is a key of linkage, of truth. Nothing physical or gameplay wise. It is meant for players to discover the secrets... but it is not physical.

Its an Idea.

The most powerful way to tell a story is not by dialogue, events, characters, or anything of that matter. Its a clue that lets you realise something, and making you think you discovered it yourself.

Lol... Well said both of you. I tend to agree that the pendant "secret" is just like a book that ends ambiguously and gets your imagination to run wild. Acidic....I'm not surprised to see your comment as you've pretty much got a doctorate on the lore (great posts by the way). Just for debate purposes and fun conversation (because we'll never be given "the" answer)...a couple of thought.

Regarding Rhea and phantoms/invasions that's absolutely a huge hole in my ideas. Since even benign characters that are presumed dead/ghosts (Dusk for ex) require an invitation to the party and Rhea absolutely barges in. The best scenario I can come up with to validate my thoughts above is related to the shaky time mechanics in the game. If Rhea in ToG is alive perhaps you are seeing her at two times in the same place (alive and corpse). I can't think of evidence of this elsewhere though so not a great explanation by any means. If she's a phantom without being summoned/invited/invading then I'm afraid I have to rely on Deus Ex Machina. She's the only phantom that is just "there" because she's Rhea darnit and she's special. The only theory to support this is the inexplicable pendant nature.....she's the only non-player to have one so she is presumed "special" along with the pendant.

As far as the clerics and revivals go, the bonfire by Patches is a (prism?) stone's throw away. It's feasible that they were drawn back to Rhea due to their former bond, etc. It actually appears to me there is a connection to Rhea in their location. They almost seem to be preventing her from leaving. This might be the only point I disagree with you on however as the bonfire revival mechanic to me seems only directly tied to darksign undead such as the player. There is plenty of evidence that revival occurs for hollows in different ways. The best example is the common enemies of the game that continuously respawn at their original locations. Nito, Pinwheel and the necromancers have unlocked revival methods of their own (although admittedly these are less than perfect revivals).

Thank you both for the replies as it has been a pleasure looking for hidden lore and the work of the community has added to my own thoughts/theories and especially the enjoyment of the game. May we all avoid going hollow in our pursuit of our truth.

well i killed rhea in my very first play through in the ToG. And she dropped humanity. From what I gather phantoms don't drop humanity. am I right?

Well, I appreciate the flatterment. However, for the idea of the thesis...

To make it so, i do not know who put the prism stones there, whether it was rhea, her crew, ot the thief. Did the thief and the clerics both come together in this exploration, with the thief as a guide? Who knows how the thief threw all three down a cliff.

As for those guys not being the same... They do have the dark sign, and that can be said easily. Those who are Undead are all those who are inflicted with the accursed Dark Sign, as said before. And it can be said that both the hollowed-in-the-mind and those of hollow form have both similar features. The two merchants of undead burg, although one being crazy 9the male one), they are both sane, not being hollow in the mind. Their eyes are also glowing as well, in which causes confusion of such things, as the player doesn't have glowing eyes. However, none of the hollowed NPCs have glowing eyes either, so it is possibly due to FROM of either not including it, or something I do not know. However, every undead is bound with such Dark Sign. The skeletons are different, as they are not THAT form of undead, as they are brought back to life by necromancy, and not by the forms of the hollows. Being said, Hollows such as the Pyromancer, Logan, and the Crestfallen Warrior all are away from bonfires, and can be said that they have hollowed WHILE exploring these areas, and not after. This has been discussed before, in the previous forum and this one.

As for the White Maiden being that of a Phantom... Phantoms are either summoned or invade. As well, she is also findable in the Archives hollow, which means that the form you see in the church is indeed not a Phantom. Whether or not Dusk is that of a Phantom or not is debatable, as she is a Sorceress of Bending light and such... perhaps the sign is that of a message, and not actually a warp between time and space, as she does disappear once freed, which says something about such a character (no other NPC has done that, so...) Dusk is debatable of her mechanics.

That is my defense. Again, i appreciate the flattering. I just argue, for the sack of optimism of both negative and positive sides of ideas. I prefer to think of myself as the 'Apple', even if I do seem bitter at times.

PPG-3-...I think some Phantoms do. I believe Kirk and Leeroy both did when I beat them recently. Also, when I speculated Rhea as a phantom I meant more as a "ghost" (specter haunting a location, etc.) rather than the Dark Souls concept of "Phantom" (entity that can interact with another's world). "Phantom" implies a number of things in this game (invader, help, justice) but is not really indicative of what I was trying to speculate on.


Acidic...glad I posted this as all I wanted was discussion regarding my idea as I don't believe there is a "right" one so let's keep it rolling. Going off of Souls evidence/lore the prism stones are almost certainly from Patches as they only lead to his trap. Also, and more importantly evidence wise as the same thing is found in Demon's souls in his "kick people down the hole" trap in that game as well.

Back to the Clerics, I wasn't trying to state that they did or did not have the dark sign, but merely stating that the bonfire revival seems only to apply in those situations as a rule. I continued by stating that other methods of revival are possible, suggesting that the Clerics, even if they did have the sign, do not necessarily have to follow the rule. For example, if a player character invades or is summoned and subsequently killed, they do not revive at a bonfire. Simply stated, I was saying that there is many ways that the creatures and characters come to be with very few hard rules and the lack of a bonfire does not prove the clerics cannot have died and returned to the scene of their death afterward (whether revived directly, or traveling back to the area). This is a point you actually added to inadvertently by stating that there are examples of characters who hollowed "during exploration." Maybe they all died and when returning to the area (maybe to collect their blood stains ) the two clerics hollowed. That of course leaves the problem that dark sign revivals do leave stains and not bodies.

Regarding Rhea...I absolutely love the stuff you pointed out. The only way my theory works is if she bucks some trends and is "special" in one way (or many). If she's a phantom from the dark souls definition (see above) she sure as heck doesn't act like. Like I clarified above, I should have said "ghost" as my theory was closer to her appearing in places she deems special and leaving signs of what transpired while interacting with the player. For all I know the pendant was a gift from the cleric who seems happy to blindly follow her (as opposed to the other who seems to begrudge this obligation) in the Undead Parish.

Great quote regarding the apple and rest easy knowing I don't find you bitter in the least. You provide theories from evidence you and others have collected and present them rationally as theories and not fact as many tend to do. I hope I come across as the same in this regard as I doubt anyone but the creators know the whole truth and there are many false paths to tread in this game. I hope this and other ideas continue to spark conversation from you and others who are willing to discuss and debate.

The three corpses bug me a lot in that area and led me to try to connect the dots. Why are there three so close together? Additionally, the only evidence we have of a group is Rhea and the clerics. They of course had a fourth (Petrus) but he comes back to Firelink. Maybe the third corpse is Petrus, who dark signs back to Firelink. Knowing Rhea failed he decides to kill her. Darn open ended story telling method and overactive imagination!!!

One of the things this game has done exceedingly well is the opportunity to speculate with just enough clues to inspire. Every player's mind is a canvas and everyone has the opportunity to be a creator of the game's lore. I think imagination is a huge part of this and the way From incorporated the lore is beginning to seem sublime.

Darn tootin' Emergence. Here's this thread if it were a standard rpg;

Me- "Hey everyone, what if...blah blah ...plot point variation."
Minimum of five people- "I doubt it, that was pretty explicitly discussed in a. Cutscene, b. Soliloquy or c. In game dialogue."
Me- "oh yeah"

Sorry Skare, I had to work on my Archives. I will get back to you tommorow. I did not ignore I, I just had to remember, search, and then write and post. I will discuss the topic here tomorrow. I have some things to say, as usual. Hope to see you then

Looking forward to it! As I'm guessing you'd agree, for lore mongers this is the same rush as PvP.

Alright, I'm back

When you say that the clerics obtained the Bloodtsain, it might be interesting to note that, as they came back for their bloodstains, they would have the ability to get revenge upon the infidel that pushed them off the cliff. As for the hollowment of the characters, I mean that they went hollowed while exploring, in which case their humanity had faded away, due to some... sad moments of realizations of 'cynicalization' in their parts. (I make up words. They make sense to me, and they are logical. Not a dictionary and not a word wiz, so bare with me). These hollowed men had went hollowed due to similar realizations that other beings that went hollow as we have seen in this game.

Hm... I know what you are trying to say. However, such a ghost would be hard to become follow later in game, as a Ghost is an imagery of time, both past and future, in which the player sees of others, with their bodies looking hollowed and undead. Rhea is... too physical for such things. She is special, yes, as she seems to be able to resist enhollowment in the game. However, she seems to have been grasping onto the Gods for support, always holding onto the fact that, even though she failed the Kindle, she can still serve the gods in repayments and have a duty, a purpose. And the pendant... I am having speculation whether if she truly did have it with her, or if someone decided to drop it on her corpse for an identity. Since the Cleric killed the maiden, what message is she trying to send with the pendant. It doesn't make sense for that part, but it is their for speculation. It would seem more logical for her to have just held it in the first place. still...