DLC Rambling time

So trying to get back into the lore, here it goes. I will say before I start I havent beat Manus or Kalameet yet and have only played an hour or 2 of DLC due to exams so I'll be updating this thread as I go.
First an obvious one. The sprites in the chasm belong to the inhabitants of Oolacile. When Oolacile opened the abyss and their humanity "went wild" it escaped.
Next how the abyss came to oolacile. I believe its Chester and Elizabeth who both mention that Oolacile opened the abyss themselves. Now it seems odd that a country dedicated to light (based off their magic and land) would attempt to venture into a place so dark.
A small interesting thing I found. The bridge that links Alvina's house isn't there Which is interesting because the walls are sealed, meaning the bridge was very purposefully built to connect the 2 later.
Gough being locked up. I don't know why he is yet, gotta find that out. Anyone know?
The Marvellous Chester. He's an interesting one. He happily sells you goods at a big price hike, but then attempts to invade you. If you defeat his invasion his tone drastically changes, as if its your fault he invaded you and got defeated. Oddly enough he also seems a bit of a coward, when you kill him he begsfor mercy. FInally hi hat which mentions the "curse of chester". Is the curse upon him, or upon his killer?

Anyway thast all for now.

Has anyone died to him yet? I wonder what he says.

He kicked me off the edge because i was clumsy. Nope, no change in dialogue.

As for the DLC and the abyss. While in the forest you can see the abyss after venturing into it. Looking closely it seems as if the ground has been bent or burnt open. Perhaps that means the abyss destroys whatever it touches? Or that has to do with Oolacile gaining access to the abyss? Idk, just felt like sharing it.

Notice that right after you beat Artorias and enter the
town, the air about you seems to be speckled with black flakes. It looks
exactly like the fire embers when you are at the Undead Church, except it’s
black. I think this has to do with the Dark Soul…. When they say his Humanity “went
wild” I think we are actual witnessing the shattering of the Dark Soul… Also,
there is a dialogue it’s either Elizabeth or Chester or maybe even both, but
they say that it was a Serpent who got them to open the tomb of the Primeval
Human. If that's the case maybe the serpents were after the Dark Soul and didn't expect it to shatter or... everything went according to their plan... Let me know what you think when you finish it Dough XD

Deathsitexxi wrote:or... everything went according to their plan...

Thats what I had assumed when I heard the dialog. It sounds like Kaathe likely saw this as the perfect opportunity to spread the influence of the Abyss a bit further, establishing a foothold in another portion of Lordran (I'm assuming its all still considered Lordran at this point, but I don't know for sure). Bringing down one of Gwyn's great knights in the process was just an added bonus.

I'm kind of curious. But why exactly does Manus draw us into the past? And why not just directly to him?

Have i just missed the obvious or has no one else thought about this?

But does Gough ever mention being locked up? I don't remember him complaining about it, and I don't think he really minds. Even if someone did lock him up, he still gets to do 2 things he loves - crafting and shooting dragons.

Mr. Tart wrote:I'm kind of curious. But why exactly does Manus draw us into the past? And why not just directly to him?

Have i just missed the obvious or has no one else thought about this?

Maybe while pulling us back into the past he dropped us (he is a little wild)? We know he wants that pendent and my guess is... His humanity went "wild" making him a little nuts. That pendent (or what's left of it) is the only thing left of his connection with his old self. Maybe, before he went "nuts" he was attempting to find the pendent to help sustain himself, and now his mind (like an animal) is fixated on obtaining that pendent again. Even though I'm sure he's forgotten why at this point. Honestly though the pendents discription helps us out a little bit with this....

"Half of a broken stone pendant. The vine appears to originate from Oolacile.
A powerful magic can be sensed from this ancient stone. Yet men of
this time can neither manipulate nor sense its power, which has a
distinct air consisting of both reverence and nostalgia."
I think the fact it states that is a stone pendant is important. The original Arch trees and Dragons were both stone. The Stone Arch Trees in particular had magical properties, maybe he used the magic to help him maintain his control over what part of the Dark Soul that he had. The vine appears to originate from Oolacile is very interesting. As in, was Manus orginally Oolacilian? Maybe this is why he took Dusk, it seems she is one of the last Oolacilains that have not turned. Yay more questions =P

Have we got any number on how far back in time the dlc takes place?
It's obviously near the end of the oolacile area, but is it before or after Gwyn kindles the flame?
We can see the walls of Anor Londo up above, but there's no trace of either the Burg, the Parish or the moonlight butterfly tower. Looking down into the valley of drakes I couldn't see the New Londo greatbridge either, if New Londo isn't built yet then Gwyn and the other deities should still be present in Anor Londo.

ublug wrote:Have we got any number on how far back in time the dlc takes place?
It's obviously near the end of the oolacile area, but is it before or after Gwyn kindles the flame?
We can see the walls of Anor Londo up above, but there's no trace of either the Burg, the Parish or the moonlight butterfly tower. Looking down into the valley of drakes I couldn't see the New Londo greatbridge either, if New Londo isn't built yet then Gwyn and the other deities should still be present in Anor Londo.

The only reference to time we get is Dusk saying "many centuries", which I know isn't that big of a help lol. However, when Qualanna asks you to take care of the bed of chaos she says "a thousand years of atonement is enough!". So Gywn fought the chaos demons when they appeared, but more than likely he ignored them until they posed a threat (who knows how long that took). Dusk saying "many centuries" we know would be more than 2 but for someone to say many I'd assume (we all know what that gets you) about 400-500 years.

So, if we trust these dialogues (time is distorted so who knows) we could assume Gywn has not linked the flame yet... but then there is Frampt...When you bring him the Lordvessel he says "After a thousand years!" With that being said it looks like Gywn fought the chaos demons, realized it was too much for him and then linked the flame. Meaning at the time of the DLC either the current illusion is in place or the GoW is in power and not screwed up yet (that's speculation though).

Either way it's very unclear the exact string of events in the world and the time line in general. If Frampt is lying (which he could very well be) then I'd say it's safe to say Gywn is still alive, but there are many ways you could interpret it. Sorry I know this isn't every helpful lol

Elizabeth made baby mushies, and they evolved over time, while Oolacile was wearing down, and now they live in darkroot.

Im saying Gwyn has linked with the flame. If he was alive I reckon he would have ended Arty himself, and I doubt Oolacile wouldv'e contacted the abyss with him around.

DoughGuy wrote:Im saying Gwyn has linked with the flame. If he was alive I reckon he would have ended Arty himself, and I doubt Oolacile wouldv'e contacted the abyss with him around.

Agreed. Artorias was an arrogant fool. His actions could have destroyed all of Lordran if the player character werent there to save his legacy.

This is just pure speculation (as usual lol) but could this be the mistake that the GoW was kicked out for? There was a lot lost here... Or do you guys see that as something Gywn did himself before he linked the flame (kicked out his son)

Dont some people think the GoW is the pygmy is Manus?

DoughGuy wrote:Dont some people think the GoW is the pygmy is Manus?

That's my first time hearing that the God of War is the Pygmy (kinda interesting). I know there is a group of people that quote the lightning spear where it says the God of War inherited the Sunlight. To which they interpret he took over for Gywn when he left. I haven't really researched it but in any case figuring it out would help us determine the timeline.

Well, the Sunlight Blade description could be interpreted as if he chose dark over light.
When the eldest son was stripped of his deific status, he left this on his father's coffin, perhaps as a final farewell.

But, the Great Lightning Spear description could go either way, depending on if you take the term 'arms' literal, or interpret 'arms' as weapons. Manus has indeed quite an arm.
The weapon of the God of War, who inherited the sunlight of Lord Gwyn, but had respect only for arms, and nothing else.

The Oolacile residents that awoke Manus most likely did so with light, since their whole civilization is based upon it, and it is probably what drove him mad.

ublug wrote:Well, the Sunlight Blade description could be interpreted as if he chose dark over light.
When the eldest son was stripped of his deific status, he left this on his father's coffin, perhaps as a final farewell.

But, the Great Lightning Spear description could go either way, depending on if you take the term 'arms' literal, or interpret 'arms' as weapons. Manus has indeed quite an arm.
The weapon of the God of War, who inherited the sunlight of Lord Gwyn, but had respect only for arms, and nothing else.

I would say it is definitely referencing weapons/war with the "arms" quote lol but that would be hilarious if it really meant his arms lol. You can see him doing push-ups all day and Gywn being like "Hey, hey son... we gotta get out there and stop this Abyss thing." and he being like "OMFG DAD you messed up my count again GTFO"

On a more serious note, the whole inherited the sunlight from Lord Gywn could also go either way. One thing that might back it up is the Great Lord Great Sword description...

Greatsword born from the soul of Gwyn,
Lord of Cinder. As bearer of the ultimate
soul, Gwyn wielded the bolts of the sun,
but before linking the fire, divided that
power amongst his children, and set off with
only this great sword as his companion.

This makes it seem like ALL of his children (which would include the GoW) got a piece of his power. Which is where the inherited the sunlight business came from.

I agree with DoughGuy and I say Gwyn has linked the Flame - if Oolacile is centuries old, and Gwyn linked the fire a millennium ago, I don't think the intention is to mislead us.

Personally, I think the Sun in the DLC is real sunlight, whereas the light from the normal game is not real sunlight. Just looking at the sky and the surroundings, it all looks much more natural to me. You also don't get those weird flecks of shiny sh*t flittering throughout the sky all the time, and those 'rays of sunlight' in the sky that look really fake and peculiar disappear as well.

More than anything, though, I question the geography of it all.

1) Where you begin the DLC and the Sanctuary Guardian boss area seem to be in an area no longer on the map in present day.
2) Sanctuary Garden appears to be where you fight Sif. I think most would agree with me on this one, as the rest of the level seems to pretty much be a venture backward from that area (as people have noted, Alvina's towers are there, the bridge near where the cats attack you in present day is there, etc.)
3) Now you take an elevator downward, and that's where you can fight Artorias and gain entrance to Oolicile Township. Things don't look recognizable, pretty much at all, really...but then you can take a semi-hidden path down into that valley, and at the end of that valley is a ladder that leads down to what seems almost undeniably like a not-yet-filled Darkroot Basin. If that's the case, it would seem the valley with the dogs in it is actually a not-yet-flowing version of the river that waterfalls into Darkroot Basin.
4) Nothing really seems familiar to me, until you get to to the Chasm of the Abyss, which still honestly looks unfamiliar, but merely relates to the Abyss. Does this mean that where the Oolicillians dug up Manus is where the Abyss is in modern day? And if that's the case, wouldn't New Londo have already been built? It seems hardly logical that the Gods would allow a city to be built right on top of the Abyss, whether it was raised with good intentions or bad intentions.

In the end, the thing I am most confused about is how Artorias' Grave seems to end up in Oolicile Sanctuary.

Also, I have a few non-location based similarities, some more obvious than others.
1) Scarecrow dudes are obviously like Demonic Foliage, as well as the Guardians being similar to the Stone Giants. If nothing else, I'd say this confirms the location being a past version of the forest.
2) Certain buildings around look like the Painted World. I'd say they sort of look like the Kiln, too, but I think the Painted World is more accurate.
3) I'm actually going to go into subsections with this one, so bear with me. The enemies throughout Oolicile Township remind of three different things - first, they remind me of the bloatheads in the Painted World. Second, they remind me of the purple enemies in Blighttown, specifically because of their willy arms. Third, they remind me of the player-character when under the influence of the egg-head.
a) The bloatheads make sense to me because, like the ones in the Painted World, there are
both melee and magically ranged versions of each one. In addition to the similar
architecture, and compounded with the odd prevalence of fire and pyromancy in the snowy
Painted World, this all almost makes me believe that Oolicile could have been burned and
transported to a Painted World of sorts, to ensure their path to the Abyss forever cut-off
once-and-for-all.
b) The Blighttown dudes do seem like they were once Human, but that they have undergone a
change greater than merely going Hollow. Also, given the unrecognizable lower-level of
the forest, and that Oolicile travels further down than that, I think it makes sense that either
Oolicile or the Oolicile Dungeons eventually become Blighttown. Proximity-wise I'm not
sure it makes sense, though Darkroot Basin does have the elevator to the Valley of Drake's
which has an entrance to Blighttown, and it does seem that Oolicile sort of curves around
in the right direction.
c) The Egg-Head, as well as the eggs all around certain levels and on the backs of those dudes
are filled with Humanity, simultaneously protecting/preserving Humanity as well as
capturing/trapping it. I find this interesting merely because it is the denizens of Oolicile's
humanity which got ripped from them and went wild, so it merely makes sense that
something would come about to seemingly trap it, as opposed to destroy it.

Finally, this is obviously well after the advent of the Undead Curse given the presence of bonfires, but the citizens of Oolicile seemingly had full-body, inherent humanity within them that was ripped out and remained more or less in-tact. Now, I suppose those enemies aren't necessarily actually humanity itself, though I guess that's a whole other debate.

That's all I have for now, but am hoping for some sweet discussion...

Deathsitexxi wrote:

ublug wrote:Well, the Sunlight Blade description could be interpreted as if he chose dark over light.
When the eldest son was stripped of his deific status, he left this on his father's coffin, perhaps as a final farewell.

But, the Great Lightning Spear description could go either way, depending on if you take the term 'arms' literal, or interpret 'arms' as weapons. Manus has indeed quite an arm.
The weapon of the God of War, who inherited the sunlight of Lord Gwyn, but had respect only for arms, and nothing else.

I would say it is definitely referencing weapons/war with the "arms" quote lol but that would be hilarious if it really meant his arms lol. You can see him doing push-ups all day and Gywn being like "Hey, hey son... we gotta get out there and stop this Abyss thing." and he being like "OMFG DAD you messed up my count again GTFO"

On a more serious note, the whole inherited the sunlight from Lord Gywn could also go either way. One thing that might back it up is the Great Lord Great Sword description...

Greatsword born from the soul of Gwyn,
Lord of Cinder. As bearer of the ultimate
soul, Gwyn wielded the bolts of the sun,
but before linking the fire, divided that
power amongst his children, and set off with
only this great sword as his companion.

This makes it seem like ALL of his children (which would include the GoW) got a piece of his power. Which is where the inherited the sunlight business came from.

As for this, I think it's pretty evident that Gwyn split his power up amongst all his children, and personally I don't think the GoW chose to be stripped of his deific status.

Spectre pointed out that the city you can see from firelink is most likely the unaccesible ruins of oolacile in the present. Judging from the direction you head to oolacile that makes sense to me if you allow for some distances to be shorter for gameplay reasons. That would put Oolacile right near new londo. Actually has anyone seen if they can reach the new londo gate in the DLC by going past kalameet?
This would mean the chasm we are seeing would be the same abyss as new londo. not neccesarily the one under new londo, but right next to it meaning the events in Oolacile could be responsible for the events in new londo as well.

DoughGuy wrote:Spectre pointed out that the city you can see from firelink is most likely the unaccesible ruins of oolacile in the present. Judging from the direction you head to oolacile that makes sense to me if you allow for some distances to be shorter for gameplay reasons. That would put Oolacile right near new londo. Actually has anyone seen if they can reach the new londo gate in the DLC by going past kalameet?
This would mean the chasm we are seeing would be the same abyss as new londo. not neccesarily the one under new londo, but right next to it meaning the events in Oolacile could be responsible for the events in new londo as well.

I thought it was all just the Undead Burg, but I'll look next time I flip it on. I think New Londo is really close to where you fight Kalameet, albeit via more Valley of the Drakes.

Isn't the area where you fight Kalameet the Darkroot Basin lake?

Mr. Tart wrote:Isn't the area where you fight Kalameet the Darkroot Basin lake?

That's what it really looks like, yeah. And the valley full of dogs you have to traverse to get there is the empty riverbed of the river that causes the waterfall in the future.

Aye. That's what i thought.

Kind of curious how the hell all the walk ways, the elevator and the bonfire would get there though. :|

Ugh, i really wish i could contribute with a more useful comment to this discussion.