DLC Rambling time

Another thing I wondered about, when you talk to Ciaran. The black thing in front of the gravestone, did she cut off her hair and place it there, or what is that supposed to be?

Just have some thoughts after playing dlc, dont know if any sense in these.

In my opinion Artorias seems to be like a gateguard. abyss creatures are behind him in township and he kills everything trying to move between township and forest.

So maybe Artorias wasnt fully "taken" by abyss, he just saw that he couldnt manage to slain creatures back, decided to protect Sif with shield and kinda sacrificed himself to abyss trying however still to work in order to hold abyss' influence less.

Just though that as I couldnt really understand why every person in that time otherwise respect Artorias that much if he had just failed, at least if he had failed honorless way.

Other thing Lord blades = Blade of the Darkmoon? Same organization which name just has changed?

JohnnyHarpoon wrote:Theory:
Pre-Oolicile incident, Humans and Humanity were one, and thus the Undead Curse was not a curse, but a sort of key to immortality. Manus is disturbed, begins going haywire and ripping people's humanity from their bodies - now, when they die, they come back Hollow and separated from their Humanity. Artorias attempts to brave the Abyss and gets it the worst of all - the first Hollow (if you watch him fight, he literally looks like a zombie, and considering the Abyss seams to eat away at everything else, why would it not eat away at the mind?).

Just a late night theory, hoping to spark discussion more than actually assume I'm super correct.

Elizabeth says:
Knight Artorias came to stop this, but such a hero has nary a murmur of Dark. Without doubt he will be swallowed by the Abyss, overcome by it's utter blackness.

I've been trying to connect Artorias to Astora for the past few weeks by referencing his cloaks color, the nature of his original great sword being similar to Astora's Straight Sword, and his shield being similar in properties to the crest shield. Meaning I believe he is an extraordinary human. What Elizabeth says here really throws me for a loop and I've been trying to figure it out. So it seems Artorias was mobbed by those humanity looking beings until he died. I'm not entirely sure how he broke his arm...However, if what you're saying is true his Dark (humanity) was taken from him due to Manus's awakening and without it (nary a murmur of Dark) the humanity beings within the chasm were attempting to find another host and killed him in the process. Or maybe he isn't dead though, he could just be possessed by these creatures.. it does seem as if he is fighting some presences inside of him when we first meet him.

ublug wrote:Another thing I wondered about, when you talk to Ciaran. The black thing in front of the gravestone, did she cut off her hair and place it there, or what is that supposed to be?

That seems to be Artoria's Plume from his helmet blug. I thought the same thing but caught the blue sheen on it while walking around it.

ViralEnsign_ wrote:I will also spark debate.

ARTORIAS WAS A CHUMP AND HIS ACTIONS ALMOST DESTROYED LORDRAN AND KILLED HIS FRIENDS BECAUSE HE WAS INCOMPETENT!

I've been asking the past few days... Is the Oolacile incident the reason behind the GoW being stripped of his deific status... Maybe Artorias was just following orders, and got overwhelmed trying to be the "good knight" for his boss. It's pretty obvious Artorias was one of the best of them, there are 2 others there and they make no attempt to subdue him (either by fear or from respect of their friend). If the GoW was in charge at this point I'd say he's the most incompetent of all, sending 1 knight to deal with this huge incident and when he fails not responding in really any kind of way. If they left everything to him the Abyss would have just crawled up the side of Anor Londo lol.

ThatPerson wrote:Geez, what's with you and the Artorias hate, Viral?

I dont get why people love him so much.

Why arent people open to the fact that Arty is a known failure, dragged his friends and allies into oolacile to fight something that cannot be defeated, and allowed himself to be corrupted rather than kill himself in a noble manner.

....Ciaran is human right?

Because she says, "You humans...."

A little odd to say considering how I thought she was human...so unless she is hiding something.

Rudmed wrote:....Ciaran is human right?

Because she says, "You humans...."

A little odd to say considering how I thought she was human...so unless she is hiding something.

I believe, like most of the citizens of Anor Londo, she sees herself as better than human (which is a very human trait btw to think you're better than you really are). Even Gywn comes from the same pool of beings as the Pygmy.

Deathsitexxi wrote:

JohnnyHarpoon wrote:Theory:
Pre-Oolicile incident, Humans and Humanity were one, and thus the Undead Curse was not a curse, but a sort of key to immortality. Manus is disturbed, begins going haywire and ripping people's humanity from their bodies - now, when they die, they come back Hollow and separated from their Humanity. Artorias attempts to brave the Abyss and gets it the worst of all - the first Hollow (if you watch him fight, he literally looks like a zombie, and considering the Abyss seams to eat away at everything else, why would it not eat away at the mind?).

Just a late night theory, hoping to spark discussion more than actually assume I'm super correct.

Elizabeth says:
Knight Artorias came to stop this, but such a hero has nary a murmur of Dark. Without doubt he will be swallowed by the Abyss, overcome by it's utter blackness.

I've been trying to connect Artorias to Astora for the past few weeks by referencing his cloaks color, the nature of his original great sword being similar to Astora's Straight Sword, and his shield being similar in properties to the crest shield. Meaning I believe he is an extraordinary human. What Elizabeth says here really throws me for a loop and I've been trying to figure it out. So it seems Artorias was mobbed by those humanity looking beings until he died. I'm not entirely sure how he broke his arm...However, if what you're saying is true his Dark (humanity) was taken from him due to Manus's awakening and without it (nary a murmur of Dark) the humanity beings within the chasm were attempting to find another host and killed him in the process. Or maybe he isn't dead though, he could just be possessed by these creatures.. it does seem as if he is fighting some presences inside of him when we first meet him.

I had a thread once about how I believe Humanity pretty much is death (to sum it up, death and people's ability to endure tragedy is what separates man from the Gods), so it makes sense that the Humanity dudes would seek a new host, but end up just killing anybody they come into contact with.

/\/\hmm heres my version of events

JohnnyHarpoon wrote:Theory:
Pre-Oolicile incident, Humans and Humanity were one, and thus the Undead Curse was not a curse, but a sort of key to immortality. Manus is disturbed, begins going haywire and ripping people's humanity from their bodies - now, when they die, they come back Hollow and separated from their Humanity. Artorias attempts to brave the Abyss and gets it the worst of all - the first Hollow (if you watch him fight, he literally looks like a zombie, and considering the Abyss seams to eat away at everything else, why would it not eat away at the mind?).

Just a late night theory, hoping to spark discussion more than actually assume I'm super correct.

At last someone is touching on mu theory that humans are just hollows bound to their humanity. I know its not exactly the same but its the closest anyone has got despite my numerous posts. In my theory:
No humans existed - only hollows until the first flame. Then Gwyn got his master soul and used its power to manipulate his form and the form of his family and certain other humans. They also became known as the gods (or prehaps in some cases demigods) ether by their own deceleration or by others opinions. When you use a miricle you draw upon that gods portion of the lord soul which connot be done without the gods consent.
Nito pretty much did the same as the gods.
The witch of I - simerlar but used her power to create flame pyromancy drawing from her lord soul. it was warped by chaos into pyromancy.
The pigmy - at first had very little power but at the others power waned his grew. He gave small buts of his soul to all the other hollows and it was bound to them creating Humans per se (hate that phrase).
Seath used the power of his soul and that of other dragons to create Soul sorcery hence the dragon school and bellowing/slumbering/forgottenthenameof rings of vinhelm.
Oolicelian sorcery comes from the power of the weilder hence has limited power (other sorceries become more powerful as you are able to tap into more souls).
Abyss sorcery draws on the power of the dark soul

So Ignoring the life storys of everyone but the pigmy, also known as manus. He had his beloved pendant too. So he is dead until Oolicile people nick his pendant. Now this bits sketchy but but something to do with this theft (maybe it was a charm against what happens next) causes Manuses humanity (which as it is basically the dark soul he has the lions share of) becones ALIVE. remember we see humanity moving in the abyss and also its described as a sprite. It warps him and begins to drag the world into the darkness of the abyss. It can also turn other humanitys alive. Humans simply contain non living humanity. Living humanity escapes upon death leving you as a hollow. Immortal but cannot think. This still links in with my bonfire lighting ideas but i have written enough.


And i think the abyss attacking Oolicile and New Londo are sepereate events brought about by a certain serpent (And people still listen to him and let the fire die out and say "the gods are cheating us")

Also why is everyone saying Arts a d*ck? Seems to me he was just an honorable knight on his own seeking to help folks and gain glory. Like out of the knng arthor legends.

I had a thread once about how I believe Humanity pretty much is death (to sum it up, death and people's ability to endure tragedy is what separates man from the Gods), so it makes sense that the Humanity dudes would seek a new host, but end up just killing anybody they come into contact with.

I've also got a thread where I speculate what the Dark Soul
is. Basically I say that, The Lord Souls are the Key to immortality (life)
and the Dark Soul is the key to controlling immortality (death). The way I
explain this is, in the Dark Souls universe the definition of immortality is a
little different than what we know. As it means you cannot die of natural causes (age). The Dark
Soul takes this a step farther and makes you able to avert true death, hence
the reason I speculate that when the Dark Soul was shattered, and spread across
the world the DarkSign also spread. This was my definition of the First
Flame/Lord Souls/Dark Soul equaling a type of time control and why time is
distorted. The Dark Soul was born from the shadow of the First Flame as well as
the beings that come from the darkness (Gywn, the Pygmy etc) Therefore, all of
the life we know of was created in the shadow of life/the First Flame.

Rudmed wrote:....Ciaran is human right?

Because she says, "You humans...."

A little odd to say considering how I thought she was human...so unless she is hiding something.

I doubt any of the knights are human.

I agree with doughguy. Gough is clearly a giant. Cierians diologe pretty much confirms she isn't human and it seems unlikly Orn or Art are human ether. I personally beleve they are are all demigods - almost human but gifted with special powers from Gwyns lord soul.

I like that idea, that all beings were more or less Hollows to begin with, and only the flame brought forth complete 'people'.

Sort of adding to this, considering cutting Black Dragon Kalameet's tail gives you the Obsidian Greatsword, I actually am inclined to believe that, while they were all made out of stone, all dragons weren't the same, and actually were made out of different types of rock/elements.

So, like, if a black dragon is obsidian, there would also have been a gold dragon who was gold, a silver dragon who was silver, some kind of greyish dragon who was iron, a light grey dragon would have been like a slate dragon or something, maybe a green dragon would be turquoise...I think you guys get it, but yeah.

The only odd thing is that dragon scales seem to universally upgrade dragon weapons, which I would say disproves this, except that they upgrade the obsidian greatsword despite it supposedly being obsidian.

But that's pretty much it, I don't know where it can go other than perhaps stand as some kind of allegory for resources in real life or something, but it's just an idea the Kalameet boss gave me.

samster628 wrote:I agree with doughguy. Gough is clearly a giant. Cierians diologe pretty much confirms she isn't human and it seems unlikly Orn or Art are human ether. I personally beleve they are are all demigods - almost human but gifted with special powers from Gwyns lord soul.

Just because they were gifted some power wouldn't mean they are not human... Yes Gough is a Giant. Think about it this way.... just like Micheal Jordon. If I were to play against him in basketball I'd be so bad against him, I would be inclined to call him a "god" on the court. He may even see himself as a "god" on the court and have better abilities than everyone else. However, the fact remains though he is still a human. The "gods" of Anor Londo and their Knights would see themselves as "higher beings". Just like the emperor of Japan was seen as a "god" to the people.

JohnnyHarpoon wrote:I like that idea, that all beings were more or less Hollows to begin with, and only the flame brought forth complete 'people'.

Sort of adding to this, considering cutting Black Dragon Kalameet's tail gives you the Obsidian Greatsword, I actually am inclined to believe that, while they were all made out of stone, all dragons weren't the same, and actually were made out of different types of rock/elements.

So, like, if a black dragon is obsidian, there would also have been a gold dragon who was gold, a silver dragon who was silver, some kind of greyish dragon who was iron, a light grey dragon would have been like a slate dragon or something, maybe a green dragon would be turquoise...I think you guys get it, but yeah.

The only odd thing is that dragon scales seem to universally upgrade dragon weapons, which I would say disproves this, except that they upgrade the obsidian greatsword despite it supposedly being obsidian.

But that's pretty much it, I don't know where it can go other than perhaps stand as some kind of allegory for resources in real life or something, but it's just an idea the Kalameet boss gave me.

The beings we see from the intro were born from the "Dark" (including Gywn). To me meaning they were born from the shadow of the First Flame aka the Dark Soul. You can even call the Dark Soul a piece of "the First Shadow" if that helps put it in perspective. Hence, why Kaathe tries to lead you to believe that the Pygmy created all human life, when we know that they came from the "Dark"

**edit My whole point with that comment was to agree with one of your orignal posts. When you said Manus's humanity going wild ripped humanity from the beings creating the Undead, etc. If you look at the Pygmy's hands in the intro they do not look hollowfied..

^Word, I didn't think you were disagreeing at all. I was literally just saying that I think dragons can almost be equated to world resources, in some ways, which would explain why they already exist and don't need to be 'brought to life'.

Deathsitexxi wrote:

samster628 wrote:I agree with doughguy. Gough is clearly a giant. Cierians diologe pretty much confirms she isn't human and it seems unlikly Orn or Art are human ether. I personally beleve they are are all demigods - almost human but gifted with special powers from Gwyns lord soul.

Just because they were gifted some power wouldn't mean they are not human... Yes Gough is a Giant. Think about it this way.... just like Micheal Jordon. If I were to play against him in basketball I'd be so bad against him, I would be inclined to call him a "god" on the court. He may even see himself as a "god" on the court and have better abilities than everyone else. However, the fact remains though he is still a human. The "gods" of Anor Londo and their Knights would see themselves as "higher beings". Just like the emperor of Japan was seen as a "god" to the people.

Umm this isnt a case of being slightly taller, this is a case odf him being 3-4 times taller than you. Gough isn't human. He may have been in the past, but whatever made him a knight has changed him so much he isnt human anymore.
Btw since the developer confirmed that the witches arent human we know not everything is, so there is already precedent for things to be an unknown non human race.

DoughGuy wrote:

Deathsitexxi wrote:

samster628 wrote:I agree with doughguy. Gough is clearly a giant. Cierians diologe pretty much confirms she isn't human and it seems unlikly Orn or Art are human ether. I personally beleve they are are all demigods - almost human but gifted with special powers from Gwyns lord soul.

Just because they were gifted some power wouldn't mean they are not human... Yes Gough is a Giant. Think about it this way.... just like Micheal Jordon. If I were to play against him in basketball I'd be so bad against him, I would be inclined to call him a "god" on the court. He may even see himself as a "god" on the court and have better abilities than everyone else. However, the fact remains though he is still a human. The "gods" of Anor Londo and their Knights would see themselves as "higher beings". Just like the emperor of Japan was seen as a "god" to the people.

Umm this isnt a case of being slightly taller, this is a case odf him being 3-4 times taller than you. Gough isn't human. He may have been in the past, but whatever made him a knight has changed him so much he isnt human anymore.
Btw since the developer confirmed that the witches arent human we know not everything is, so there is already precedent for things to be an unknown non human race.

Sorry if I wasn't clear I was not saying Gough was anything other than a giant.... My point was that Orn,Artty etc are more than likely human... Per my example above. Also, we get a clear example of someone growing from absorbing power from the Ornstein battle. Anywho, I have not seen the developer interview with them saying the witches are anything else. I'll have to look it up, I've been told about this interview several times but nobodies linked me anything lol.On a side note.. of course the witches are not human anymore.... just by looking at them we can see that. Off to google....

edit** the Jordan reference had nothing to do with his size but his ability..

DoughGuy wrote:

Deathsitexxi wrote:

samster628 wrote:I agree with doughguy. Gough is clearly a giant. Cierians diologe pretty much confirms she isn't human and it seems unlikly Orn or Art are human ether. I personally beleve they are are all demigods - almost human but gifted with special powers from Gwyns lord soul.

Just because they were gifted some power wouldn't mean they are not human... Yes Gough is a Giant. Think about it this way.... just like Micheal Jordon. If I were to play against him in basketball I'd be so bad against him, I would be inclined to call him a "god" on the court. He may even see himself as a "god" on the court and have better abilities than everyone else. However, the fact remains though he is still a human. The "gods" of Anor Londo and their Knights would see themselves as "higher beings". Just like the emperor of Japan was seen as a "god" to the people.

Umm this isnt a case of being slightly taller, this is a case odf him being 3-4 times taller than you. Gough isn't human. He may have been in the past, but whatever made him a knight has changed him so much he isnt human anymore.
Btw since the developer confirmed that the witches arent human we know not everything is, so there is already precedent for things to be an unknown non human race.

Interestingly enough.. I have not found that interview yet but I found an interview where the developer says "Covenant of Solaire" GoW confirmation?

http://www.egmnow.com/articles/news/egm-interview-dark-souls-director-hidetaka-miyazaki/

DoughGuy wrote:

Deathsitexxi wrote:

samster628 wrote:I agree with doughguy. Gough is clearly a giant. Cierians diologe pretty much confirms she isn't human and it seems unlikly Orn or Art are human ether. I personally beleve they are are all demigods - almost human but gifted with special powers from Gwyns lord soul.

Just because they were gifted some power wouldn't mean they are not human... Yes Gough is a Giant. Think about it this way.... just like Micheal Jordon. If I were to play against him in basketball I'd be so bad against him, I would be inclined to call him a "god" on the court. He may even see himself as a "god" on the court and have better abilities than everyone else. However, the fact remains though he is still a human. The "gods" of Anor Londo and their Knights would see themselves as "higher beings". Just like the emperor of Japan was seen as a "god" to the people.

Umm this isnt a case of being slightly taller, this is a case odf him being 3-4 times taller than you. Gough isn't human. He may have been in the past, but whatever made him a knight has changed him so much he isnt human anymore.
Btw since the developer confirmed that the witches arent human we know not everything is, so there is already precedent for things to be an unknown non human race.

I found the interview you referenced and honestly... I'm not convinced... For one let me reference dialouge from Laurentius of the Great Swamp....

"My teacher, whom I imagine still resides in the Great Swamp,
had a funny way of putting it.
He said that "Pyromancy is the ultimate fantasy…"
"We are born into Dark, and warmed by Fire, but this Fire we cannot touch."
"Those whose fascination with Fire persists, learn to hold it in their own hand."
He rather had a way with words, the old withering frog!"

It's always been my understanding that he is talking about Salamon being an old withering frog... Now, this next part is directly from the interview P is Miazaki (translation is froggy....)

(I): Quelaana, **** that likes Quelaana. Is Quelaana single? Does she have a boyfriend? Did she go
out with Zalaman?
(P): The hell is this?
(M): HAHHAAHAH
(P): What is this?
(M): Its a question
(P): As for boyfriend, I don't think she has a boyfriend...
(M): HHAHAHAHAHA
(P): Zalaman is not like that, he's an apprentice. There is nothing like that. First of all there are
different species. Quelaana is a daughter of Izalalith and a species like that so it comes
down to if reproductive actions are even possible.
(I): It could be platonic love.
(P): Well it may be. **** that loves Quelaana may very well be that way.
(IMP): lol
(P): Basically they are different species, and she is no doubt a good character. If you go to Romance
possiblities, of all the female characters she quite desirable.
Are you 100% sure he's not saying they can't have a romance because Salamon is a different species? He references Quelanna as a Daughter of the Witch (which is no longer human obviously.. but more than likely used to be) and then the translation is really a grey area so......

edit** on a side note I need to learn Japanese....
edit2 ** Quelaana does call Salamon a "man" sooooo the odds could be leaning in your favor lol

So I'm a little late to the party. Please forgive me if I bring stuff up already talked about.

The first thing I want to mention is nyah nyah, I was right about what happened to Artorias before the PC edition even came out (thank you trailers). I think it was Mr. Tart who theorized that the Abyss worked kinda like acid and corroded things. So since his equipment helps my cause when I stated that before too (not accusing you of taking my idea, we just reached the same conclusion) I will stand by my theory of, after the shield was destroyed (not completely but damaged and left for Sif) Artorias had nothing left to defend himself and used that side as the sacrifice so as not to lose his sword too.

More thoughts on this:
Sif inherited the divine sword, which we see her already in possession of before he leaves her. So he requisitioned a NEW sword before he left for Oolacile. Why? Well, we know he traversed the New Londo Abyss and made a covenant with the beasts there right?

My theory is that he went to New Londo to seek assistance from the beings in that Abyss on how to stop Manus. They convinced him to make the cursed Sword (probably not wise for him to carry it around) and made a covenant. Remember Elizabeth? I took her dialogue as meaning Artorias was already a little bit dark and this would lead to his consumption. Well if he made a covenant with the beasts I would imagine he was a little bit abysslike before setting foot in Oolacile.

Also, I see Viral's hate position but to me rash decisions lead to good stories which is why we love us some Artorias. Personally I question if he led anyone but Sif down there too. I haven't met Ciaran yet (I refused to give her the soul and she left) so I don't know her story but Gough seems like he's been up in his tower a looooong time, while the Artorias stuff seems more recent. I stated in the useless facts thread that Gough and Kalameet have an epic standoff going on in which they basically just prevent each other from moving. Maybe Gough was already there to prevent Kalameet from destroying Oolacile. I also don't see Ornstein anywhere in the DLC. Ciaran in my brief contact with her said Artorias was a friend. Did he lead or did she follow?

Regarding what happened in Oolacile and why there's nothing left:
Elizabeth shows hope AND cynicism by indicating that she thinks you can stop the spread of the Abyss but feels it's too late for Oolacile. Seems like she's right. We see the forest is already getting chopped up by the Abyss. Towers have fallen and what should be a town is basically only a path. A path perhaps designed to lead you to Manus with his treasure.

On the subject of time:
Look how much earth has been removed from the forest floor in the past. And then take a look at the hills and other features of the land that don't exist in the present. Even if the Abyss regressed and gave back some of the earth, how long would it take for the geography to fix itself in that manner or even be fixed. We can presume that we were right in that Alvina and cohorts restructured the forest to make it a proving ground to pass along Artorias' legacy so maybe she helped restore the forest. Still though, it's been awhile.

Random thoughts:
Has anyone tried doing all the DLC then fighting Sif yet? You would think she might remember you. Honestly she might and it might not matter though. Assuming they're looking for the successor she might just want to determine you still "got it."

Elizabeth remarks she won't tell your story but will remember you? Is there any evidence that the mushrooms in the non-DLC areas don't hate you? That would be cool.

Gough is awexome! Will take a look at him more because he intrigues me.
Chester is a D-Bag, glad I killed him (although the coat is a nice Skarekrow-ey look)

Next time maybe I'll be more focused

...Can we survive the abyss now without the ring?

I mean we've been there once, and we have shown we can wander the abyss without the ring!

So Viral, does this change your position about Arty? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M94DZSEE1kw

So, if this is a rambling topic I'll ask this:
why everyone hate Chester so much? Did I miss something? He's expensive but he got STYLE!! (Yeah, I've been invaded)

About the video: I don't like the dialogues, I'm glad they were cut. The voice is sexy but it doeasn't fit my image of Artorias and it feels kinda young. I imagine it much more deep

@Skare - big spoiler so don't read it, althought I thought this was common knowledge already?

Spoiler: