by vegan666 Wed Jun 19, 2013 1:44 amThis debate still going on? They won't put guns in, and thanks *** for that. End debate.
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Would you accept a Pistol if....
vegan666- Addicted
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The problem with the debate is that it's focusing on whether or not guns would fit into the setting instead of the the game itself. Guns would not fit into a Souls game, regardless of whether or not they are appropriate.
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Serious_Much wrote:You could also say that it would be ludicrous if people could throw lightning or there could be spiders that spew lava, or swords that fire energy beams..
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(How the hell do you get out of a quote!!?)
Anyways this does make sense if you factor in the element on magic. People believed in magic at the time as well as the demons etc. Dark souls makes it quite clear that magic is in the game as it is in many places therefore we can factor in magic as a form of energy in this world drawn from souls.
The chaos spiders (as we all know) were created when the witch of isilith tried and failed to recreate the first flame. As such this does follow logic and fit the theme. Just not the logic in our real life earth.
Are you telling me a death star belongs in the game? i used that as an example that some things blatantly fit the theme. Guns in my opinion are another.
Also as to that guy who said guns were around at the time check through the rest of this thread and find my post on the matter. While the first firearm was invented in china by the late medieval ages it was simply a bamboo stick that contained explosive and a projectile. This would later be developed into cannons and it was much later (ie a few centuries past the medieval ages) when the first handheld firearms (such as your flintlocks) were invented.
Basically i am saying guns do not fit the theme although i do not argue that if you really wanted to implement them you could but 'could' and 'should' are very different things. I am certain that From will see things this way.
Serious_Much- Moderator Trainee
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Surely though you can see my point. Id claim within the setting it's a greater stretch to put in the utterly impossible than a gun that is maybe a few years ahead of its time at most. I don't see how the Death Star is at all relevant as that's just taking debate to an ad absurdum level, and saying guns would be akin to putting in a Death Star is being frankly over dramatic.
The fact is you're talking about the fantasy setting. So what do we have? Fantasy could mean anything we want- the iron golem is supposedly a machine with a magical core. We have firebombs (so gunpowder weapons), and mechanically the avenlyn, which I'm not even sure anything like at exists). These factors coupled with the indisputable feature of time distortion means there could easily be guns. It's perfectly plausible for one or two of the parallel worlds to have created guns that present themselves in your own world- possibly due to a difference in synchronisation of time, or even that one world is more technologically advanced. But you can't say they don't fit, they obviously comfortably would. It's just you don't want them. Me being neutral on this naturally I'm more open to the idea.
Like I said, it's personal preference whether people want guns as to whether they think they fit the setting or suit the gameplay, the prior opinions are obviously affecting the prior ideal. It's the same as when people refuse to believe the obviously true or insist on believing the blatantly false. Just because of insistence doesn't mean it becomes fact
The fact is you're talking about the fantasy setting. So what do we have? Fantasy could mean anything we want- the iron golem is supposedly a machine with a magical core. We have firebombs (so gunpowder weapons), and mechanically the avenlyn, which I'm not even sure anything like at exists). These factors coupled with the indisputable feature of time distortion means there could easily be guns. It's perfectly plausible for one or two of the parallel worlds to have created guns that present themselves in your own world- possibly due to a difference in synchronisation of time, or even that one world is more technologically advanced. But you can't say they don't fit, they obviously comfortably would. It's just you don't want them. Me being neutral on this naturally I'm more open to the idea.
Like I said, it's personal preference whether people want guns as to whether they think they fit the setting or suit the gameplay, the prior opinions are obviously affecting the prior ideal. It's the same as when people refuse to believe the obviously true or insist on believing the blatantly false. Just because of insistence doesn't mean it becomes fact
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I must say I think all those Death Star/New York/Kim Jong Il references are (more than) a bit overdramatic. I'm not having a go at your opinion, just saying you're taking the issue to an extreme that's not really relevant.
I personally would like to see guns incorporated into the game, as I like guns lol, and I think the current ranged mechanics are shiite.
That being said I dont think they would fit in lore-wise: as far as I know now, DkS2 is going to be set as a prequel to DkS. As there were no guns available in DkS (firebombs being about the closest analogue, which are still a wee way off even early firearms) it woudn't make sense to me if they suddenly appeared in an EARLIER time period. You could make the argument that they did exist, and we just didn't get to use them, but with all the in-game lore and backstories to every GD character under the sun, that argument wouldn't really stand up to scrutiny IMO as we should have read about some historical figure/story which incorporated them.
All that said, I would still accept pistols and even muskets in DkS2 (that is the point of this thread right?), simply because they would add another element to an already quite complex game. They would have to have some pretty darn good writers on team to make the addition logical lore-wise, but even if they didn't, I wouldn't care...
Give me a pistol and call me a pirate, I want a *** gun!
I personally would like to see guns incorporated into the game, as I like guns lol, and I think the current ranged mechanics are shiite.
That being said I dont think they would fit in lore-wise: as far as I know now, DkS2 is going to be set as a prequel to DkS. As there were no guns available in DkS (firebombs being about the closest analogue, which are still a wee way off even early firearms) it woudn't make sense to me if they suddenly appeared in an EARLIER time period. You could make the argument that they did exist, and we just didn't get to use them, but with all the in-game lore and backstories to every GD character under the sun, that argument wouldn't really stand up to scrutiny IMO as we should have read about some historical figure/story which incorporated them.
All that said, I would still accept pistols and even muskets in DkS2 (that is the point of this thread right?), simply because they would add another element to an already quite complex game. They would have to have some pretty darn good writers on team to make the addition logical lore-wise, but even if they didn't, I wouldn't care...
Give me a pistol and call me a pirate, I want a *** gun!
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Hart wrote:They would have to have some pretty darn good writers on team to make the addition logical lore-wise
What about my idea where they aren't an entire weapon class in and of themselves, but rather a unique weapon used by a boss or something who was a "crossbow specialist" (ala Ornstein being a spear specialist or Artorias being a Greatsword specialist) using a "heavily modified" and customized crossbow? It still allows it to be incorporated while simultaneously separating it from any implications relating to the larger Dark Souls universe. It keeps it isolated to one justifiably-more-advanced situation.
Hart- Obsessed
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As a unique weapon then? Yes, I could see that being incorporated easily enough into the games lore. Like a large Smough-esque boss with something similar to those old chinese mortar devices.
My only small issue (and I'm really only bringing it up for the sake of just that
) is if it was unique, it would either be:
1) Enemy/boss weapon only and not usable by the player.
2) Usable and over-powered (keeping its effectiveness similar to the bosses version)
3) Usable and scaled down (so it is on par with other weapons and balanced within PVE and PVP)
Number 1 is fairly moot at this point, if we can't use it then its not really on-topic. And neither 2 nor 3 appeal to me, as making it unique implies it should be godly (unbalanced) and if it is balanced then whats the point of it being a boss weapon you can use (see 1).
But thats just my view of it. I would love to see guns in a Souls game, and now that you've brought it up I'd love to see a gun-wielding boss too.
My only small issue (and I'm really only bringing it up for the sake of just that
) is if it was unique, it would either be:1) Enemy/boss weapon only and not usable by the player.
2) Usable and over-powered (keeping its effectiveness similar to the bosses version)
3) Usable and scaled down (so it is on par with other weapons and balanced within PVE and PVP)
Number 1 is fairly moot at this point, if we can't use it then its not really on-topic. And neither 2 nor 3 appeal to me, as making it unique implies it should be godly (unbalanced) and if it is balanced then whats the point of it being a boss weapon you can use (see 1).
But thats just my view of it. I would love to see guns in a Souls game, and now that you've brought it up I'd love to see a gun-wielding boss too.
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i'd be happier with timed explosives than a gun... wait gun idea, large blunder buss style gun that fires a ball and chain, with the chain attached to the gun, actually wait, make it a mace and have the r2 be the firing attack... that could be fun...
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Wow seriously guys, you are all acting like guns will ruin the game.....
We already have non realistic weapons and armors, what stops us from adding guns?
I think to balance it they should make it not scale and deal fixed damage based on gunpowder or bullets, also make it deal lot of stamina damage, that will help against turtles, make the reload time 0.5-1 second and you get a cool weapon
We already have non realistic weapons and armors, what stops us from adding guns?
I think to balance it they should make it not scale and deal fixed damage based on gunpowder or bullets, also make it deal lot of stamina damage, that will help against turtles, make the reload time 0.5-1 second and you get a cool weapon
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Yes guns will ruin the game
Yes i was being overly dramatic with the death star and whatnot (to make a point about some things blatantly not belonging).
No serious_much guns are not a few years ahead of this time they are a few centuries ahead.
No just because you have gunpowder doesnt mean it instantly leads to guns. It takes centuries. Explosives are quite easy to make but it was hard to get all the components (chamber etc) made with the materials available at the time hence the many years of delay.
Yes reaperfan your idea could work in a way depending on how it was implemented.
Oh and yes much it is personal preference as to if they fit the theme and in my opinion it is not.
Anyways i have noticed things are getting a bit circular here making points that have already been made. I would respectfully and humbly ask that people please read the whole thread before posting. And make it quite clear that i am not at all or angry or disrespectful of your opinions etc. I know it can be hard to tell cos you cant really put emphasis or emotions in type.
Yes i was being overly dramatic with the death star and whatnot (to make a point about some things blatantly not belonging).
No serious_much guns are not a few years ahead of this time they are a few centuries ahead.
No just because you have gunpowder doesnt mean it instantly leads to guns. It takes centuries. Explosives are quite easy to make but it was hard to get all the components (chamber etc) made with the materials available at the time hence the many years of delay.
Yes reaperfan your idea could work in a way depending on how it was implemented.
Oh and yes much it is personal preference as to if they fit the theme and in my opinion it is not.
Anyways i have noticed things are getting a bit circular here making points that have already been made. I would respectfully and humbly ask that people please read the whole thread before posting. And make it quite clear that i am not at all or angry or disrespectful of your opinions etc. I know it can be hard to tell cos you cant really put emphasis or emotions in type.
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The chinese had clip fed repeating crossbows, and they were significantly less powerful than standard crossbows.
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Also, did i not just explain that guns show up in roughly the 14th century, which in terms of our actual history, fits the technologhy level present in the soul series? The earliest fire arms (12th century chinese hand cannons) actually predate the level of technology present in dark souls.)samster628 wrote:Yes guns will ruin the game
Yes i was being overly dramatic with the death star and whatnot (to make a point about some things blatantly not belonging).
No serious_much guns are not a few years ahead of this time they are a few centuries ahead.
No just because you have gunpowder doesnt mean it instantly leads to guns. It takes centuries. Explosives are quite easy to make but it was hard to get all the components (chamber etc) made with the materials available at the time hence the many years of delay.
Yes reaperfan your idea could work in a way depending on how it was implemented.
Oh and yes much it is personal preference as to if they fit the theme and in my opinion it is not.
Anyways i have noticed things are getting a bit circular here making points that have already been made. I would respectfully and humbly ask that people please read the whole thread before posting. And make it quite clear that i am not at all or angry or disrespectful of your opinions etc. I know it can be hard to tell cos you cant really put emphasis or emotions in type.
I don't want them included, but your assertion that they can't fit historically is wrong, and demonstrably so.
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I don't think it would fit the general style of the game, weather it fits the time period or not. Bows, swords and magic don't mix well with guns. 
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What if the "Gun Class" had these weapons:
1) Pistol: Deals 75 Damage (No scaling). Drains 150 Stamina (Essentially a ranged Black Combustion) if blocked. .7 second build up time, instant shot, 1 second reload (That only reloads upon pressing the Heavy Attack of whichever hand it's on.
2) Blunderbuss: Deals 50 damage (No scaling). Drains 150 Stamina upon hit if blocked. Same stats as Pistol, hits in an area about the same size as the Forest Shotgun.
THey have their own niche, they have their own use, they are incredibly powerful against Turtles (Something that needs nerfed anyway), and are in no way overpowered. Mechanically, this is different from both bows and X-bows.
1) Pistol: Deals 75 Damage (No scaling). Drains 150 Stamina (Essentially a ranged Black Combustion) if blocked. .7 second build up time, instant shot, 1 second reload (That only reloads upon pressing the Heavy Attack of whichever hand it's on.
2) Blunderbuss: Deals 50 damage (No scaling). Drains 150 Stamina upon hit if blocked. Same stats as Pistol, hits in an area about the same size as the Forest Shotgun.
THey have their own niche, they have their own use, they are incredibly powerful against Turtles (Something that needs nerfed anyway), and are in no way overpowered. Mechanically, this is different from both bows and X-bows.
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This is the main point i am on about. Your main argument against it seems to be 'oh you have ridiculous armors and such why not have guns' and that is why i pointed out you should put in the death star. It is an invalid point that just because you can put something in you should.Bontee wrote:I don't think it would fit the general style of the game, weather it fits the time period or not. Bows, swords and magic don't mix well with guns.
In regards to the time i am going to quote my whole past statement all over again to re-explain.
Oh and ResIsBestStat i have just realised who your profile picture is and i have to commend you for it.
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samster628 wrote:
According to out old friend wikipedia (don't get me started on wikipedia) The medieval ages lasted from the 5th to the 15th centuries. Now consider that the earliest firearm was developed in china in the form of a huge bambo tube that fired out some gunpowder and a few projectiles in the 13th century. That is the latter end of the medieval ages (and i consider dark souls to be based in the medieval ages) so it is unlikley there would be firearms in dark souls but even if there were flintlock pistols (the ones you are showing) were not introduced until the 17th century.
So in short pistols would be historically inaccurate, game breaking (in terms of turning a swordfight to a shootout) and altogether a lousy idea. The best i could possibly accept is a very early cannon or two that could NOT be handheld. I am sorry but i just think some people are just mad about guns but don't get me started there ether (seriously that's a dark road to walk).
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samster628 wrote:samster628 wrote:
According to out old friend wikipedia (don't get me started on wikipedia) The medieval ages lasted from the 5th to the 15th centuries. Now consider that the earliest firearm was developed in china in the form of a huge bambo tube that fired out some gunpowder and a few projectiles in the 13th century. That is the latter end of the medieval ages (and i consider dark souls to be based in the medieval ages) so it is unlikley there would be firearms in dark souls but even if there were flintlock pistols (the ones you are showing) were not introduced until the 17th century.
So in short pistols would be historically inaccurate, game breaking (in terms of turning a swordfight to a shootout) and altogether a lousy idea. The best i could possibly accept is a very early cannon or two that could NOT be handheld. I am sorry but i just think some people are just mad about guns but don't get me started there ether (seriously that's a dark road to walk).
Who's to say there aren't some of us out there who wouldn't mind a little historical inaccuracy if it brought something new and potentially interesting to the table?
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samster628 wrote:This is the main point i am on about. Your main argument against it seems to be 'oh you have ridiculous armors and such why not have guns' and that is why i pointed out you should put in the death star. It is an invalid point that just because you can put something in you should.Bontee wrote:I don't think it would fit the general style of the game, weather it fits the time period or not. Bows, swords and magic don't mix well with guns.
In regards to the time i am going to quote my whole past statement all over again to re-explain.
Oh and ResIsBestStat i have just realised who your profile picture is and i have to commend you for it.
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My point about the historical inaccuracy is a continuation of that guns don't fit the theme and a possible reason why. Things from different eras really don't go well together most of the time. For example who in their right mind would try to use a flintlock pistol against a modern day assault rifle?
Putting guns in the game is effectively putting in futuristic tech for the time in which dark souls is set. And for what? Why do we need guns in the game at all? Perhaps its 'cos everyone wants to be a gunslinger.
Putting guns in the game is effectively putting in futuristic tech for the time in which dark souls is set. And for what? Why do we need guns in the game at all? Perhaps its 'cos everyone wants to be a gunslinger.
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samster628 wrote:My point about the historical inaccuracy is a continuation of that guns don't fit the theme and a possible reason why. Things from different eras really don't go well together most of the time. For example who in their right mind would try to use a flintlock pistol against a modern day assault rifle?
Putting guns in the game is effectively putting in futuristic tech for the time in which dark souls is set. And for what? Why do we need guns in the game at all? Perhaps its 'cos everyone wants to be a gunslinger.
What about Steampunk, where you often see muskets in the same room as heavy (Gas powered) machine guns and electrical gun shenanigans?
What about Star Wars: Knights of the Old Republic, where you have lasers, but people still run around with Vibroblades?
Gears of War, where shields and chainsaws are located in the armory right next to the giant lasers of death?
Mark of the Ninja, where a ninja with a sword and smokebombs is wrecking a modern militant mercenary group?
Bioshock, where even with chemical flamethrowers and elephant guns, the best weapon in the game is the Wrench?
Real life military people, who all carry at LEAST a 6" knife and are capable of using it should someone get too close?
This is Dark Souls, a Fantasy game. It is not historically accurate, it's not real, it is a work of fiction. It is not constrained by any rules, except those that From gives it. "Historical Inaccuracy" has about as much meaning as saying "In Skyrim trolls are big and ugly and regenerate, so Dark Souls 2 Trolls have to be that way as well".
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Samster is agreeing it can be in the game. His point is that it would alter the experience negatively for him. It works in steampunk but maybe he just doesn't want the game to go down that path
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skarekrow13 wrote:Samster is agreeing it can be in the game. His point is that it would alter the experience negatively for him. It works in steampunk but maybe he just doesn't want the game to go down that path
That's not what I'm reading at all
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Who said flintlock? Flint lock would be future tech as far as I can tell (though admittedly I'm not an expert by any means) but matchlock technology fits the time period. I'm aware of no reason a matchlock pistol would be completely unattainable, though a rifle seems more likely.samster628 wrote:My point about the historical inaccuracy is a continuation of that guns don't fit the theme and a possible reason why. Things from different eras really don't go well together most of the time. For example who in their right mind would try to use a flintlock pistol against a modern day assault rifle?
Putting guns in the game is effectively putting in futuristic tech for the time in which dark souls is set. And for what? Why do we need guns in the game at all? Perhaps its 'cos everyone wants to be a gunslinger.
Again, I don't want them in either, but you're still wrong about the time period "not fitting" arguement. It ultimately depends on when the world is modeled on, but late in the era, early guns are entirely plausable.
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this wouldn't make any sense say im wearing the strongest armor in the game someone shoots me it wouldn't hurt me as much
poise against armor which would win me armor
poise against armor which would win me armor
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cerealaire wrote:this wouldn't make any sense say im wearing the strongest armor in the game someone shoots me it wouldn't hurt me as much
poise against armor which would win me armor
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