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    Summon Range Calculator

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    Post by Emergence Sun Dec 23, 2012 9:11 pm

    Hey peoples, just wanted to call out that we have a summon range calculator on the Wiki now:

    http://darksoulswiki.wikispaces.com/Summon+Range+Calculator

    It was put together by our very own ManatuBear from the chatbox and one of our Organizers on the Portuguese wiki, who is a co-op sage. He graciously allowed us to host the code on the wiki. This should be helpful for people from rookies to vets, do the math for you and take some of the guesswork out of the online play!

    Enjoy! If you get a chance, hop on the chat and give Mana some love! (Tell him you like his beard winking)
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    Post by Carphil Mon Dec 24, 2012 12:56 am

    this is great, a fantastic contribution to the co-op area
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    Post by The_Hallion Mon Dec 24, 2012 10:35 am

    Nice one! This will be very useful
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    Post by bunnywink Mon Dec 24, 2012 11:42 am

    This is really helpful! happy
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    Post by Tolvo Mon Dec 24, 2012 1:01 pm

    Man, what a dumb and useless thing, 0/10.

    Added to the resources thread.
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    Post by XachAttack Mon Dec 24, 2012 2:31 pm

    Dude! Freakin yes O_O!
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    Post by lextune Tue Dec 25, 2012 7:57 pm

    This is a wonderful new resource!

    It already seems likes an absolutely indispensable, resource for making CoOp builds.

    ....love it.
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    Post by PlasticandRage Wed Dec 26, 2012 1:02 pm

    This is awesome. Especially considering how often I've found myself asking this exact question in the last couple of weeks.
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    Post by befowler Wed Dec 26, 2012 1:13 pm

    PlasticandRage wrote:This is awesome. Especially considering how often I've found myself asking this exact question in the last couple of weeks.

    Bingo.
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    Post by FinPeku Wed Dec 26, 2012 1:25 pm

    Has someone actually confirmed that sunbros have different summon range? According to retro's research, they don't.
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    Post by Emergence Wed Dec 26, 2012 2:47 pm

    Manatubear tested it extensively with Sunbro and was able to get summons consistently close to the 15% mark (14.5% mostly and 16% in rare instances). He said things like affective groupings (where you connect easier with someone you already made a connection with) also come into play with summons and ranges which makes all summoning a wee bit murky on the edge of ranges.
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    Post by Emergence Wed Dec 26, 2012 3:39 pm

    I spoke with Mana, he confirmed what I said, but being the good guy he is is mobilizing the wiki chat for re-confirmation. happy
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    Post by FinPeku Wed Dec 26, 2012 7:20 pm

    Good to hear happy

    I really hope he is right. It would be another nice little detail in this game.
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    Post by ManatuBear Thu Jan 17, 2013 8:33 pm

    Shame on me for not checking the forum before... doing the portuguese wiki and co-oping takes all my attention!
    Summon tests were re-made after patch 1.06 and calculator was updated (im sure everybody noticed it).
    Sorry for only mentioning it here now. happy
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    Post by Carphil Thu Jan 17, 2013 9:08 pm

    ManatuBear wrote:Shame on me for not checking the forum before... doing the portuguese wiki and co-oping takes all my attention!
    Summon tests were re-made after patch 1.06 and calculator was updated (im sure everybody noticed it).
    Sorry for only mentioning it here now. happy

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    Post by retro Mon Jan 21, 2013 5:21 pm

    Hey, thanks for making this! It seems quite close to being accurate, but I think it may be slightly off (very close, though). It's a very great resource, but I think it may be able to be improved slightly. Sorry if this comes across as pedantic, but I've done a lot of level range testing and there is always confusion about 10 + 10% vs. 10 + 15%.

    A couple things -

    1.
    I don't believe the co-op range was ever 10 + 15%, not even for sunbros, so I would consider removing mention of that. I did level range testing in 1.05, 1.06, and 1.07. I'm certain that the belief in the 10 + 15% formula comes from a mistake where players tried calculating from the host's level. You can't do this, as the range is calculated from the phantom's perspective.

    Here's an example:

    One player who believed in the 10 + 15% formula (the commonly-referenced steam forum DaS network guide, which has a lot of other good info about co-op), cited testing where a level 65 host could summon a level 83 phantom, but not a level 84 phantom. If the range is 10 + 10%, they must have wondered - how do you summon a level 83 player when 65 + 16.5 = 81.5?. They thought that the 10 + 10% formula couldn't explain this "larger" range they were finding, so they tried a 15% formula which they thought gave them a correct answer (but it actually didn't..., although it appeared to be closer).

    However, they failed to try calculating 10 + 10% from the phantoms range, where the calculation is actually made (I've tested this). 83 - 10 + 10%, or 83 - 18.3 = 64.7, which should round up to 65. They thought they needed a bigger formula to explain why a level 65 could summon a level 83, but didn't consider that it's the other way around - the level 65 player is in range of the level 83 player.

    In a sense, level matching is a one-way process where summon signs find the hosts. The signs are only sent to a host if the host is in range of the phantom. The phantom doesn't have to be in range of the host. Same goes for invasions. The math is done by the phantoms.

    That being said - this DOES mean that a host and a phantom at the same levels have a slightly different level range. I wrote an explanation here that explains it in detail, with an example level ranges table showing the different ranges for hosts and phantoms:
    http://darksouls.wikidot.com/co-op

    2.
    The calculator currently states that a level 100 player can be paired with levels 81 - 121. This is quite close, but like I said there should be slightly different ranges for hosts and phantoms. The phantoms should be able to paired with hosts between the levels of 80 - 120. A level 100 host should be able to be paired with phantoms between the levels of 82 - 122.

    Because finding out the range from the host's perspective is more work (requires calculating 10 + 10% from two different levels, in this case 82 and 122), I would suggest fine-tuning the calculator to only calculate from the phantom's perspective.

    In this case, it should come out to levels 80 and 120 exactly. I'm not sure how 81 and 121 can be reached with rounding, because 10 +/- (10 + 10%) at level 100 is +/- 20 exactly, which is where I see a small error with the calculator currently.

    I might also reword the field that says "Soul Lvl" to "Soul Lvl of Phantom", and "Min." and "Max." to "Min. Lvl of Host" and "Max. Lvl of Host". Or a note beneath it that clarifies that you're calculating from the phantom. Without it, players might not know which perspective they're calculating from.

    - - - -

    If not, this is close enough to still be a very handy resource, and I highly appreciate it. happy I just wanted to point out that 15% never worked and that phantoms and hosts have different ranges.
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    Post by Emergence Mon Jan 21, 2013 5:40 pm

    Hey retro, appreciate the heads up about that! I'll get in touch with Mana about this. Also, I think some of that info from your expertise would be great on the wiki, if you'd be gracious enough to share it. The more eyes that see it, the better for the community in the long run.
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    Post by retro Mon Jan 21, 2013 6:04 pm

    Thanks! If there's any conflicting research, please feel free to contact me to see if we can figure something out. If there are any specific level ranges that have been tested, we could double check to make sure that 10 + 10% works from the phantoms perspective.

    One example is that I did a lot of co-op with a level 70 phantom, who was only summoned by hosts between the levels of 53 - 87.

    Another is that a level 20 phantom could be summoned by my level 8 host (20 - 12 = 8), but when he tried hosting, my level 8 was too low level to be summoned by him (8 + 10.8 = 19).

    I then leveled up and he, still a level 20 host, could summon me up to level 33 (33 - 13.3 = 19.7, rounds to 20), but level 34 was too high for him (34 - 13.4 = 20.6, rounds to 21).

    I posted this thread here which goes into the level ranges:
    https://soulswiki.forumotion.com/t14670-all-of-the-exact-level-ranges-matchmaking-formulas-for-the-multiplayer-items
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    Post by ManatuBear Mon Jan 21, 2013 7:12 pm

    Hi Retro!
    My calculations were all made from the host lvl, since it is the host the person who summons. From the phantom point of view the range is different, because, for example, instead of making lvl+10+10%, the phantom would have to make lvl+10%+10, and that would give different results. Example, if a lvl 80 wants to know what is the max lvl he can summon, he has to do (80+10)+10%=99, however, if a lvl 80 wants to know what is the max lvl host that can summon him, he has to do (80+10%)+10=98, and this matches the calculator, if you insert 99 has host lvl the min that he can summon is 81, 98 will be able to summon a 80.
    Several summons were made, not trying to follow any formula, but rather checking when the phantom/host would be in range/out of range, either by summoning once, phantom lvled up once, re-summoning until it went out of range (host lvling up to check the lower end), in the end , all summons seem to obey to the formula (lvl+10)+10(to 11)% or (lvl-10)-10(to 11)%, the max i could summon was (lvl+10)+11,3%, the min was (lvl-10)-11,2%, so i assume there is a +/-1% margin.
    I think before patch 1.06 the formula was the same, but the "servers" were just more relaxed ( i managed to summon someone on a 16% range once!)
    I wanted the calculator to be simple, so i didnt include tabs, i thought of having a Host tab and a Phantom tab, but in the end its always the host doing the summon, and reversing the formula is not too hard. (People can always find the limit by aproximation using the host calculator)
    As is it says in the calculator, its a reference, it was never made for 100% accuracy.
    I suspect 100% accuracy is impossible, since that 1% margin might oscilate from day to day, and to get the closest possible, it would involve tests with highs lvl (above 100-200), and because of the amount of souls needed to lvl up, and lvl "caps" the community tries to stick to, it would be hard, and a bit of a waste of time, to do.
    The results are rounded for simplicity, if the min someone could summon is 81,6 it rounds to 82, but there is no reason to not try to summon a 81, the opposite for max lvl, because 81,6 is not 82, but its always worth to try, that 1% margin might be enough.
    I hope this helps!
    -----
    Edit: Forgot to add that the calculator was made with the wiki chat in mind, that´s the reason why its from the host point of view, so people can insert their lvl and then ask in the chat if someone between lvl xx and xx can help them.
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    Post by retro Mon Jan 21, 2013 7:39 pm

    Ah, thank you. I think you've got the rounding correct, but my initial point is that you can't calculate exactly from the host's perspective. It seems counterintuitive, but don't think of it as the host finding the signs - it's the signs finding the hosts. That's how it works.

    I think it can be 100% accurate if we calculate from the phantom's perspective always.

    Trying to find out the host's range of phantoms requires not applying a formula to the host, but applying the formula to the two phantoms that will happen to have the host at the outer-limits of their formulas.

    For example, a level 100 host can be paired with phantoms between levels 82-122, not because of any math applied to level 100. The 10 + 10% math is applied to those two levels, because it's from the phantom's perspective always.

    82 + 18.2 = 100.2
    122 - 22.2 = 98.8

    I don't believe you summoned someone on a 16% range if you did the math from the perspective of the phantom. It wouldn't truly be a 16% range from the host's perspective, because it wouldn't have worked out as 16% on both ends.

    Here's an example:

    One person believed in 10 + 15% because at level 50, they could summon a level 67 phantom at the highest. 50 + (10 + 15%), or 50 + 17.5 = 67.5

    I would argue that its the 10 + 10% formula, because it works from the phantom's perspective.
    67 - (10 + 10%), or 60 - 16.7 = 50.3

    Is it just a matter of perspective? 15% from the host,10% from the phantom.
    It isn't, actually. 15% won't hold up.

    Because consider the minus part of + / - in the formula.

    With the 10 + 15% formula, the host will think they can summon a level 33 player at the lowest (50 - 17.5 = 32.5).
    With the 10 + 10% formula, the host will think they can summon a level 36 phantom at the lowest (36 + 13.6 = 49,6).

    So the two formulas can give you very different answers, which is why trying to do things from the host's perspective simply doesn't work. +/- 10 + 15% or 16% doesn't truly work in any situation.
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    Post by ManatuBear Tue Jan 22, 2013 9:41 am

    Retro, all that matters to me is the host point of view, so people can ask for the correct lvls in the chat.
    Its hosts that ask for help, not phantoms. And to hosts the result showed works 100% as far as i tested, and as far as people using it in chatango are concerned, i NEVER had someone say that the calculator showed a lvl impossible to summon. My only goal is to help the chatango community, not do a 100% autopsy of the game mechanics and p2p lobby.
    I know some people thrive on that, and i admire their inititive, but im not that much concerned with 100,0000% accuracy, the calculator is a mega-basic excel spreadsheet being opened by excel wep app, and has it says, its reference only.
    If you want to change it to make phantom calculator instead of a host calculator, please feel free to do it, i can give you the link to the xls file.

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