Question~~

^You've got a point when it comes to lore. Havel is also a very old and like it was pointed out before his muscles have probably deteriorated over time. Tarkus died when he and Oscar were escaping from the Painted World from what I can recall from Serious's lore forum. Havel was a sworn enemy of a dragon, hell his weapon is a dragon tooth. So lore wise Havel would win.

However gameplay wise, Tarkus would win. It's mainly because Havel can't tank any hits from a +10 weapon. I would say it took me two backstabs with the thief's dagger before Havel finally died. On the other hand if you have ever fought Havel as an invader it takes several backstabs and parries before Tarkus can be killed.

So on an actual in-game fight Tarkus is very likely to win.

InfiniteDoomsday wrote:Biased opinions everywhere,

Story-wise, Tarkus is an ant compared to Havel the Rock, who was the sworn enemy of Seath the Scaleless himself. Who outweighs the Iron Golem by ALOT. Havel can handle the heaviest full loadout, so that should mean that Havel is obviously strong enough to beat Tarkus in an arm wrestle.

Tarkus fanboys are so blind, no offense. =S

Yes, so true. Even though I am a tarkus fan boy, look at the load on Havel, if he is dead and old yet he can still carry all the armor and swing that tooth, I believe that he is stronger than Tarkus. Iron Tarkus is strong and really awesome, but in Feats of strength I have to say Havel.

TAAAARRRRKUSSSSSSSSS

But, lore wise, i'm pretty sure he would lose to the guy who fought dragons with blunt weapons, and then probably went "this tooth is mine now! D:< "

reim0027 wrote:Tarkus is like the Chuck Norris of DkS. He has my vote.

^ This.

TARKUUUUUUSSS!!!

skarekrow13 wrote:Tarkus. Because his wallet says "Bad Mother****er" on it

Tarkus doesn't need a wallet, he pays the iron price. The black iron price.

Thanks for blowing up my movie reference!


So we wanna go lore with this debate eh?

Sure, Havel's armor is heavier but Tarkus' set says it's so unwieldy he's the only one capable of wearing it. Now we know that's not true since we can wear it at some point (I can anyway) so what conclusions can we realistically draw about comparative strength?

There's about 10 difference in weight in armor. So far Havel (or one of his soldiers depending on your take on the lore) has a small advantage. Same with weapon and shield (Havel carries 44 in his hands while Tarkus has 28 potentially). Total weight of equipment for Havel is 94 while Tarkus is only carrying 68.

Havel is clearly stronger.....



BUT WAIT! We know the guy in the tower drops Havel's ring. Again, this depends on your lore stance (I believe it is Havel in the tower) but that means to carry that weight he almost certainly uses the ring. Now, the ring grants a 50% increase in carrying capacity, meaning using my maths and such, the weight he's carrying should feel like 2/3 of the actual weight. Divide 94 by three is 31.3333333, multiply by 2 and:


Havel's equipment at 94 weight FEELS like 62.6666666 weight. So Tarkus is actually carrying the heavier burden. I would need to actually watch more and see about rolling but I always felt he was a little more spry as well. So in addition to his Black Iron wallet saying "Bad Mother****er" on it, he seems to be less bothered by a larger burden.

skarekrow13 wrote:Thanks for blowing up my movie reference!


So we wanna go lore with this debate eh?

Sure, Havel's armor is heavier but Tarkus' set says it's so unwieldy he's the only one capable of wearing it. Now we know that's not true since we can wear it at some point (I can anyway) so what conclusions can we realistically draw about comparative strength?

There's about 10 difference in weight in armor. So far Havel (or one of his soldiers depending on your take on the lore) has a small advantage. Same with weapon and shield (Havel carries 44 in his hands while Tarkus has 28 potentially). Total weight of equipment for Havel is 94 while Tarkus is only carrying 68.

Havel is clearly stronger.....



BUT WAIT! We know the guy in the tower drops Havel's ring. Again, this depends on your lore stance (I believe it is Havel in the tower) but that means to carry that weight he almost certainly uses the ring. Now, the ring grants a 50% increase in carrying capacity, meaning using my maths and such, the weight he's carrying should feel like 2/3 of the actual weight. Divide 94 by three is 31.3333333, multiply by 2 and:


Havel's equipment at 94 weight FEELS like 62.6666666 weight. So Tarkus is actually carrying the heavier burden. I would need to actually watch more and see about rolling but I always felt he was a little more spry as well. So in addition to his Black Iron wallet saying "Bad Mother****er" on it, he seems to be less bothered by a larger burden.

This was....genius o.o

What the Old Guard already knows but the New Blood should learn ASAP: Don't eff with skare!

skarekrow13 wrote:Thanks for blowing up my movie reference!


So we wanna go lore with this debate eh?

Sure, Havel's armor is heavier but Tarkus' set says it's so unwieldy he's the only one capable of wearing it. Now we know that's not true since we can wear it at some point (I can anyway) so what conclusions can we realistically draw about comparative strength?

There's about 10 difference in weight in armor. So far Havel (or one of his soldiers depending on your take on the lore) has a small advantage. Same with weapon and shield (Havel carries 44 in his hands while Tarkus has 28 potentially). Total weight of equipment for Havel is 94 while Tarkus is only carrying 68.

Havel is clearly stronger.....



BUT WAIT! We know the guy in the tower drops Havel's ring. Again, this depends on your lore stance (I believe it is Havel in the tower) but that means to carry that weight he almost certainly uses the ring. Now, the ring grants a 50% increase in carrying capacity, meaning using my maths and such, the weight he's carrying should feel like 2/3 of the actual weight. Divide 94 by three is 31.3333333, multiply by 2 and:


Havel's equipment at 94 weight FEELS like 62.6666666 weight. So Tarkus is actually carrying the heavier burden. I would need to actually watch more and see about rolling but I always felt he was a little more spry as well. So in addition to his Black Iron wallet saying "Bad Mother****er" on it, he seems to be less bothered by a larger burden.

Genius

Hold on everyone. Before you heap on too much praise I think I better let you know that I'm working on more research that could blow this whole question up. I have some typing to catch up on at work before I post my results but I think I'm on to something even bigger than my last position statement on this one.

Ok...I think I have the conclusive answer finally. Math seemed like a legit way to come to a decision but I feel that only tells us who is stronger. Now...to win an arm wrestling contest, might I suggest we debate who is better able to go

OVER THE TOP!!!

Based on this question, I think I've come up with a clear cut, five point criteria on how to win at arm wrestling. I've evaluated both Havel and Tarkus on these five points:

1. An arm wrestler needs wrist flexibility.
Based on this criteria I've looked at their armor sets. Tarkus' armor has a clear design emphasis on allowing wrist movement. Havel....not so much. Now, this only applies to when they're wearing armor I admit which they might not wear for this matchup. However, since they're both custom armor sets, I think it's fair to say that they're designed based on what each warrior feels is important.

Winner- Tarkus

2. The ability to ram through things like a semi to confront the villain.
Both use bash techniques so this one seemed to be a close one at first. However, Havel is trapped behind two wooden doors that are possibly over 1,000 years old and does no bashing. Tarkus' shield specifically references it's ability to bash. Havel's shield actually kind of is "anti-bash" with what it does.

Winner- Tarkus, though I admit I'd actually like to see him ram through a few gates to call this conclusive

3. An estranged son that you try to reconnect with during a road trip.
The obvious answer is that Tarkus is a knight and Havel is a bishop. Suggesting that a man of the cloth might be more likely to have a vow of abstinence. I don't know enough about their religion to lean that way though so...

Winner- Tie, we just don't know enough about their religion

4. A rich, overbearing father-in-law to start a custody battle with you.
This is another tough one. A knight could just as easily be part of the nobility than a bishop and therefore have an a-hole rich father in law.

Winner- Tie

5. A blue collar work ethic, with a heart of gold hidden deep within.
Let's start with the heart of gold. Havel's items indicate he held a lot of hatred inside and tries to smash you on sight. Tarkus is not only helpful, he's willing to do all the work. Even on NG+++ where I summoned him just to see if he can hold his own still (the answer is, oh hell yes). As for the blue collar work ethic, I just assumed that the Iron is "Black Iron" from his proximity to semi smokestacks.

Winner- Tarkus

That's two ties and three to Tarkus. Sorry Havel fans, evidence suggests that Tarkus is more similar to Lincoln Hawk than Havel is.

Spoiler:

Now that's a proper analysis

However if I may, we should consider endurance as well, even if it's hard to measure.

As any fallout 2 player will tell you, one needs endurance just as much as strength to arm wrestle, otherwise he just ends up with a ball gag

HAVEL FOUGHT DRAGONS. He was locked away by Unknown reasons. (Mad? Anger?)
TARKUS FOUGHT Iron Golem...AND WON. BUT HE DIED AGAINST Painting Guardians...(I would guess that since his body is found there.)

bla wrote:Now that's a proper analysis

However if I may, we should consider endurance as well, even if it's hard to measure.

As any fallout 2 player will tell you, one needs endurance just as much as strength to arm wrestle, otherwise he just ends up with a ball gag

Considering everyone just went off their armor, I'd say END is accounted for.

Havel has at least 50 strength because of his shield, while Tarkus only has 34(minimum). The question is, does Tarkus have more strength than his shield requires? And how much DEX does he have?

Tarkus would win. Maybe havel is stronger, maybe havel has OP weapons and armor... But Tarkus. BLACK **** IRON TARKUS has the power of PWNAGE.

Summon Tarkus = Dark Souls easy mode activated.

Tarkus dont needs strenght because he has SWAG

tarkus has superior range to havel becaue of his gs's r2, also havel has arounf 1000...1200 hp? and tarkus has... has anyone actually calculated it?

Lol. You got me, in game stats would suggest Tarkus actually has more endurance than Havel, not strength. Common sense and real life theories (which was more my thought process) suggest he is stronger as well since he carries more weight with less difficulty. Havel's equipment has the higher str. stat investment but in reality that doesn't say what their max is. I think for other stats we'd have to make pretty wild speculation (like I haven't already). I would say Tarkus has more dex based on the armor construction and weapon type. Again, these would be reality based observations. I can tell you from personal experience that anything (we're talking oversized weapons here )with a blade requires more dexterity than a club primarily due the increased chance of overextending with a large weapon and needing an exit strategy.

How much HP does Tarkus have?

Also, isn't there a way to see their stats and equipment from game data?

TARKUUUUSSSSS!

i've seen how badly Tarkus wrecks every invader he encounters. i've seen Tarkus tank through a dark wraith's wrath of god only to one shot the poor sod. i've seen Tarkus laugh off a hornet ring backstab only to flick the invader off a ledge with that greatsword of his. i've seen Tarkus solo two invaders at once and utterly demolish them, then go on to solo the Iron Golem like it was just another day at the office.

i've also seen Havel violated by every green toon that ever crossed his path.

the only reason why so many aspire to be like Havel instead of Tarkus is because there can only ever be one Tarkus.

Ashran wrote:Tarkus would win. Maybe havel is stronger, maybe havel has OP weapons and armor... But Tarkus. BLACK **** IRON TARKUS has the power of PWNAGE.

Summon Tarkus = Dark Souls easy mode activated.

Tarkus dont needs strenght because he has SWAG

You do realize that the word swag was originally an acronym standing for "secretly we are ***" and used to organize orgies right? If tarkus has that, he would lose, hands down.

I was always under the impression that the word "swag" was merely a defiled version of the word "swagger"

Sloth9230 wrote:I was always under the impression that the word "swag" was merely a defiled version of "swagger"

i thought swag was more of pirate thing.

Aznul wrote:

Ashran wrote:Tarkus would win. Maybe havel is stronger, maybe havel has OP weapons and armor... But Tarkus. BLACK **** IRON TARKUS has the power of PWNAGE.

Summon Tarkus = Dark Souls easy mode activated.

Tarkus dont needs strenght because he has SWAG

You do realize that the word swag was originally an acronym standing for "secretly we are ***" and used to organize orgies right? If tarkus has that, he would lose, hands down.

Okay, I'm actually quite offended that that word is censored..... Why not censor lesbians or something. =\

RedderAI wrote:

Aznul wrote:

Ashran wrote:Tarkus would win. Maybe havel is stronger, maybe havel has OP weapons and armor... But Tarkus. BLACK **** IRON TARKUS has the power of PWNAGE.

Summon Tarkus = Dark Souls easy mode activated.

Tarkus dont needs strenght because he has SWAG

You do realize that the word swag was originally an acronym standing for "secretly we are ***" and used to organize orgies right? If tarkus has that, he would lose, hands down.

Okay, I'm actually quite offended that that word is censored..... Why not censor lesbians or something. =\

Most likely because some use it as an insult or derogatory term. I didn't mean my comment to be insulting though, I am just tired of seeing that phrase used by people who don't know its origin.