Primordial Serpent theory

just out of curiosity why do you say gough arrivved first followed by artorias and then ciaran? im not disagreeing or anything just curious what facts your drawing that from?

There are no facts to support this but I believe that logically we can deduce that it was in that order. If something was afoot in Oolacile I think it would be likely that Gough would have volunteered to go check it out, we can make this assumption due to how he refers to it with a loving tone, he obviously favors Oolacile.

When Gough is imprisoned there is no word to Anor Londo as to what is happening there we can assume that Artorias, being a proper knight (again, we can deduce this from Ciaran's recollection about how he would feel about her assumptions) would take up the cause to get to the bottom of things.

Artorias arrives in Oolacile, sees what is going on, and actually finds Gough but Gough, being the gentle giant he is doesn't mind being imprisoned since he probably couldn't bring himself to harm his beloved captors. Artorias then continues into the abyss to face Manus and is corrupted. Gough continues to remain imprisoned at this, in my opinion, because he fears Artorias.

Ciaran, obviously in love with Artorias, finds out about what has happened and follows after him, searching for her object of affection, only to find he has been corrupted and thusly slain by you. She then offers you her weapon in exchange for his soul. Being an assassin this is a pretty huge deal. That she would give up her life-tool for the soul of Artorias is pretty big.


This is why I believe it happened in that order...it's not just about the text but the inflections of the speech. Plus it's really the only order that makes sense to me, but if you can present an alternate I'd be more than happy to listen .

Looking back on the one time I played through the DLC, didn't Gough say something about being retired?

Really, I think the most important thing to take from the whole DLC is how much Ciaran cares for Artorias. She gives up her blades, the very things she built her existence upon, is very telling about how much she cares for the wayward knight. Though, we could also assume that she just wanted the soul for some sort of gain, but I don't think so, otherwise she wouldn't give up her weapons.

I think this also cements the fact that at this point Gwyn has linked the flames. Ciaran is willing to give up her trade tools for the soul of the one she loves because with Gwyn gone, most of the Gods leaving Anor Londo, and even Gough imprisoned, she is simply tired of going on with the tedium of things.

Most people would say that the fact that there are bonfires would solidify the fact that Gwyn had linked the flames but I disagree, I think the bonfires exist in every land as a means to connect it to Lordran, home of the Gods, the only thing Gwyn achieves by linking them is boosting the light a minimal amount, like taking 2-3 small torches to make a fire....I expound on this theory in another post somewhere, but I just wanted to put it out there again.

I imagine that he probably was retired but he has a soft spot for Oolacile, again listen to his inflections, he is obviously depressed or regretful that there is no place for him with the dragons gone, I believe that may have been a big motivator. When he became "locked" in the tower he just resigned to spend his days there...you can't tell me you actually believe that that tower could hold him.

Kingseeker Frampt refers to himself a lot as "The Primordial Serpent" As if there is only one. Now, whether this is to state the truth that Kaathe and Frampt are one being is an option, but it could be he says this so that the Chosen Undead does not go looking for another Serpent (i.e. Kaathe) to learn the "Truth" (Or lie, no-one knows). This sounds more likely because Frampt is a deceiving bastard.

Offtopic: I was at Firelink shrine the other day headed to the Undead Asylum when I saw the most disturbing thing. There are two eggs in the birds nest, and when the Camera is positioned in a certain way, the eggs, nest and Frampt come together to form a rather believable Phallis! I'm serious. Take a look for yourself. It sure gave me a laugh.

alchemydesign wrote:Well, I've given up trying to convince anyone otherwise, but as a final hurrah, the Oolacile Gardeners are scarecrows, wooden artifacts imbued with magic...darkroots ents are ents...demon trees...the buildings have different dimensions...the so called kalameet/hydra ladders are in totally different orientations, if you stand with the ladder to the left of you and face away from kalameet you see a huge cliff face...if you do the same in darkroot...stand with the ladder to your left and face to the back of the hydra you see a huge cove...sooooo, take what you will from that....plus the oolacile sanctuary area is too small to be Sif's arena, as well as it is surrounded by high cliff walls....MUCH higher than Sif;s arena.



Anyhow, like I said, I'm done trying to convince anyone otherwise...there are too many things that go one way or another...I believe 100% in my correctness however, so with a handshake and a bow I shall not discuss this any further.

-Artorias' memorial ('fake grave') found in Darkroot forest.
-Enchanted ember found in Darkroot forest. 'This enchanted ember, a form of sorcery, is a vestige of the lost land of Oolacile.'
-Dusks corpse as well as vestige from past summoning sign located in Darkroot basin.
-Alvina and Sif located in both Oolacile and Darkroot forest.
-Cirian located in Oolacile, whilst a corpse with her ring on it located in Darkroot forest.
-Sentient mushroom's located in both Oolacile and Darkroot forest.
-Stone Guardian's located in both Oolacile and Darkroot garden.
-Sentient tree's located in both Oolacile and Darkroot forest and garden.
-Manus pulls you back into the time of Oolacile from the location of Darkroot basin.

The evidence is incredibly strong almost borderline overwhelming that the ruins Oolacile are located in the Darkroot region and that's before we nitpick architecture/flora/area/magic lore similarities e.t.c

Wow, thank you, where is that from? It's soooo much easier with a map view. I stand corrected on the places not being the same. As far as construction differences it wouldn't matter because I was basing my argument on is no longer valid as it assumed that the Alvina section was on the South side of the Ravine but we see it is not. Well done.

alchemydesign wrote:Wow, thank you, where is that from? It's soooo much easier with a map view. I stand corrected on the places not being the same. As far as construction differences it wouldn't matter because I was basing my argument on is no longer valid as it assumed that the Alvina section was on the South side of the Ravine but we see it is not. Well done.

Dark Souls 3d map viewer, I don't have the version that has the DLC on it though so I can't help you with that one. It's probably around somewhere though.
The version I have : http://www.mediafire.com/?b6kqp19eqo61o98
It's pretty useful when you're researching lore.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tyTB5vhKGSI

it really is soooo much easier to have it laid out like that it, makes it a lot clearer...however, while I do secede to them being the same place, I don't think that it's spatial alignment is proper, I think Bonfires act as a sort of space warp, connecting a certain radius to Lordran allowing access to the Gods...this is kinda hard to explain though. At least, how I mean it...

You should probably start a new thread for that theory or try sounding it off with people? Anyway, enough with my off-topic derailing, time for the serpent discussion to continue.

Did anyone point out the importance of the Caduceus shields, and the fact that you find one right next to Frampt?

What do you mean? All it says is that the giant trees of Lordran are related to the ancient archtrees. Which would make sense that the Gods would try to carry on with the trees.

Talking about the designs on the shields. Should've clarified.

The caduceus is a symbol of a serpent with 2 heads. It's the symbol of heralds, messengers, merchants, gamblers, shepherds, liars, thieves, and guides of the dead.

Oh, yeah, hm, that is interesting, never put those two together, it's hard to say, it's not very useful unless it's only there simply as symbolic gesture.

alchemydesign wrote:Oh, yeah, hm, that is interesting, never put those two together, it's hard to say, it's not very useful unless it's only there simply as symbolic gesture.

That's what almost all of the lore is. Location of item is very significant, and so is the obviously relevant mythology that inspired many of the plot lines.

Yeah, and it would also point to a couple of different things...if you look at the shield the serpent image is in a U shape, connected in the lower-bound apex pointing out that they are indeed a single entity. But also if you take the image of our current caduceus (two serpents intertwined around a staff) then you could draw the conclusion that while the serpents may be separate they are involved in the one goal, signifying that both endings are the same end...no good, no bad...at least as far as they are concerned.

The problem with the theory of all the primordial serpents being one entity is that the game uses "a primordial serpent" which indicates that is possible for there to be more than one.

Solid Knight wrote:The problem with the theory of all the primordial serpents being one entity is that the game uses "a primordial serpent" which indicates that is possible for there to be more than one.

No, they say "the."

I may have said it here before, but I still lean towards the theory that both serpents are trying different methods to get the CU to return the Lord Souls to the flame (The Lordvessel connects, after all; it's a bonfire).

Just talked to Kaathe, he says "the other serpent, Kingseeker Frampt"

Dutchy wrote:Just talked to Kaathe, he says "the other serpent, Kingseeker Frampt"

Can't trust either of them tho, especially about this.

Yeah, just putting it out there