The "Bad Guy" in Dark Souls

When you looked at the title of this topic you probably thought of Gwyn instantly. He is after all the final boss in the game, he seemed to have done a lot of bad things in his time like taking the powers of his firstborn son, and your quest seems to be to defeat and succeed him. I thought that too, until I realized something very important.

After you defeat Gwyndolin, you get to a chamber. This was as far as I know some kind of a memorial room because Gwyn offered himself to the flames. In one of the chests you can find the miracle "Sunlight Blade". I will give you a quote from the description of it:

"When the eldest son was stripped of his
deific status, he left this on his father's
coffin, perhaps as a final farewell."

If you read that somewhat closely, you can see that his status as a god was removed AFTER Gwyn had offered himself to the flames. Now, what does that mean? Well, contrary to what most people seem to automaticly assume, it was not Gwyn who did it. So who could it be?

How about the person ignored and hated by everyone he knew? The man raised as a woman because of his attributes, and seemed to have been isolated from the other gods? How much hatred do you think had been growing inside Gwyndolin towards the other familymembers after what they did to him? And who do you think would be in controll after Gwyn offered himself? Surely not the lastborn. No, the god of war, the firstborn would.

In some other item description related to this (cannot remember which) it was stated that the firstborn was stripped of his powers because of his foolishness. If you think about it, this can be interpreted in different ways. One could be that he did something stupid, and the other is that someone tricked him, and clearly Gwyndolin would be able to do that considering his intelligence. He could have droven out the other gods too, and may be the reason why he is the only god left in Anor Londo.

I think it is pretty clear by now that I think Gwyndolin is the bad guy in this game, and not Gwyn. However, what about Gwyn? Why did he even offer himself to the fire? Of course, the Age of Fire was fading and all that, but he must have known the consequences, namely torment until someone else decided to offer himself. What if Gwyndolin persuaded him to do it. Gwyndolin could have had all this planned all along, and he simply wanted to get more power. I know this is purely speculation, but I think it is worth thinking about.

Now, back to the firstborn. Personally, I think it is Solaire. He doesn't seem like the sharpest knife in the drawer, so he seems like to could have fell for something like that. Also, he has the symbol of the firstborn several places, such as on his shield, and doesn't it sound weird that he is looking for his own sun? I am not sure how Gwyndolin did it as of yet, but I will think more about it. Anyways, listen to one of his last dialogues. At one point he says: Was it all a lie? Of course, we cannot know for sure at any time in this game, but atleast this is what I think at the moment.

There is also one last person that seems very connected to Gwyndolin, and that is Velka. She is, as you might know, the goddess of sins, and her job is to punish those who do it. However, isn't that Gwyndolin's job? I think she was the previous leader of the Blade of the Darkmoon covenant. However, she isn't anymore, so what happened? Did Velka get the same fate as the other gods, and was driven out of Anor Londo? Either that or she left the covenant because of all the terrible acts Gwyndolin did? The point is, in both of these theories, Gwyndolin sinned.

Velka seemed to have fled or was banished in the painted world, considering all her followers items are found there, and several crow-like creatures too, which are associated with Velka. The fact is that only people or gods who are feared come in there. Now, why would Gwyndolin fear Velka? Obviously because he sinned. So what is the punishment? I think Velka released the undead curse, and created the darksign. This is the reason why the undead asylum was built. To prevent the undead from reaching him. He also made sure that anyone who actually managed to get out would think Gwyn was the bad guy instead, so that the Age of Fire would be extended even more.

So basicly, I think the main character is on a mission by Velka to punish Gwyndolin, who is really the bad guy in this game, not Gwyn, contrary to popular belief.

Remember, most of all this is purely speculation, so please take it with a pinch of salt and tell me what you think of my theory.

Sorry for the wall of text btw.

interesring theory man. really left me thinking about that

Solaire is a follower of the GoW, that's why he wears the symbols of him.
Gwyn needed to relink with the flames otherwise the gods would lose their power because it (almost, maybe actually did) went out. He wouldn't need to be tricked because its something he would doof his own accord.
As for foolishness, history is written by the victors. If the GoW did something like exstinguish the first flame because he was the Dark Lord then Gwyn would consider his actions foolish (and probably more).
Just because Gwyn was in the kiln doesn't mean he had no influence. He could have still affected his son from the kiln before the flame consumed him.
Also due to the nature of his departure the grave could have been built before Gwyn left for the flame meaning Gwyn could have stripped him of his powers then left.

My friend Ultimateevil123 believes that you're playing as the villain.

Kaathe. He's too ugly not to be evil. And the villain.

There is nothing either good or bad, only thinking makes it so

DoughGuy wrote:Solaire is a follower of the GoW, that's why he wears the symbols of him.
Gwyn needed to relink with the flames otherwise the gods would lose their power because it (almost, maybe actually did) went out. He wouldn't need to be tricked because its something he would doof his own accord.
As for foolishness, history is written by the victors. If the GoW did something like exstinguish the first flame because he was the Dark Lord then Gwyn would consider his actions foolish (and probably more).
Just because Gwyn was in the kiln doesn't mean he had no influence. He could have still affected his son from the kiln before the flame consumed him.
Also due to the nature of his departure the grave could have been built before Gwyn left for the flame meaning Gwyn could have stripped him of his powers then left.

I might be wrong, but is there any evidence at all suggesting that it was in fact Gwyn who did it? If not, it might aswell be someone else, and to be honest I find that to be way more likely.

I find the Velka part of this theory very intriguing.

i myself read this and try to not automatically say yes thats true end of story as i hate gwyndolin and his "darkmoons protecting the gods" i find that a load of bull and myself find him far to arrogant as to not be evil. now if i might say this what if gwyndolin and a serpent frampt or kaathe planned this whole thing out? and before the instant no comes give it some thought why not frampt or kaathe make a deal with a god of "sins" to allow his living and maybe give him more power if he is the only god left in the dark a feat for sure. as for the velka idea i like it and it is well thought out but that would then tie this up with priscy as it is her domain and maybe he banished velka because of prsicy. my theory is that priscy was hated and despised by all the gods as well as feared and wanted her death. now velka know or believing priscy had not done anything to deserve this made a whole new world for her but this made gwyndolin angry. a forgotten and arrogant "god" of sins who had probably never even been known to anyone doesnt even get pity and here a beast who is hated gets a whole new world just for her. i myself might get just a bit pissed at that so what did he do? he went after priscy in a failed attempt and by not having the doll was to endure this fact and then take his wrath out on the gods he despised by making a deal with a serpent and thus having the events happen as they did. so yeah thats my theory feel free to challenge it and call me on any mistakes.

Gwyndolin tries to kill you for going near his father's coffin. He's also the only person he let's in there, and there are flowers on the coffin and a chair facing right at it.

He's clearly obsessed with his father. Given how he doesn't tell you to go after or not go after the Lord Souls, and in fact is the only covenant that TELLS you to go and do other stuff, I don't think he wants you to kill Gwyn.

Which would mean he wouldn't be allied with the serpents.

Wow, this is indeed a nice theory. Too god to be only speculation, i think it could really hide some truth. Wise deductions, op.

Except that Gwynevere, his own illusion, tells the Chosen Undead to seek out and follow Kingseeker Frampt and 'inherit the Fire of our World.' He actually says (if technically indirectly) to follow Frampt. Now, he may actually not be aware that Gwyn is Hollow and not a burned crisp; I doubt it.

well i admit i hadnt thought about that fact acarnitia but that is true and ashran you talkin about all the theories? though he may be obsessed dont you think maybe hes obsessed by his want OF his father's power when it was at it's peak? if i were him id at least be thinkin how awesome his power was and being where he is all the time might make him go crazy if thats his only thought thus the deal with the serpent or serpents.

Acarnatia wrote:Except that Gwynevere, his own illusion, tells the Chosen Undead to seek out and follow Kingseeker Frampt and 'inherit the Fire of our World.' He actually says (if technically indirectly) to follow Frampt. Now, he may actually not be aware that Gwyn is Hollow and not a burned crisp; I doubt it.

If I remember correctly, it never actually states that Gwyndolin made the illusion. Gwynevere may have made it before she left Anor Londo, which would explain how you can use her miracles while in her covenant.

It never is directly stated. Gwyndolin says pretty little directly. He is also a god of the Moon, which is often associated with illusion, magic, darkness and evil, and there are apparently many things in Anor Londo that are far form what they seem to be.
Even if Gwynevere made the illusion we see, then that means that Gwynevere herself supports Frampt, (or at least did) which, considering that she was/is the Queen of Sunlight, I think makes it likely that at least the majority of the Gods share Frampt's goal. That would mean that Gwyndolin isn't interfering with the Chosen Undead slaying Gwyn and linking the Fire, meaning he's either neutral towards or in support of it. In either case, A god is in league with Frampt.

twilightwarwolf wrote:i myself read this and try to not automatically say yes thats true end of story as i hate gwyndolin and his "darkmoons protecting the gods" i find that a load of bull and myself find him far to arrogant as to not be evil. now if i might say this what if gwyndolin and a serpent frampt or kaathe planned this whole thing out? and before the instant no comes give it some thought why not frampt or kaathe make a deal with a god of "sins" to allow his living and maybe give him more power if he is the only god left in the dark a feat for sure. as for the velka idea i like it and it is well thought out but that would then tie this up with priscy as it is her domain and maybe he banished velka because of prsicy. my theory is that priscy was hated and despised by all the gods as well as feared and wanted her death. now velka know or believing priscy had not done anything to deserve this made a whole new world for her but this made gwyndolin angry. a forgotten and arrogant "god" of sins who had probably never even been known to anyone doesnt even get pity and here a beast who is hated gets a whole new world just for her. i myself might get just a bit pissed at that so what did he do? he went after priscy in a failed attempt and by not having the doll was to endure this fact and then take his wrath out on the gods he despised by making a deal with a serpent and thus having the events happen as they did. so yeah thats my theory feel free to challenge it and call me on any mistakes.

Interesting.. I agree, this could also be a very good explanation for all this.
Atleast there is something fishy about Gwyndolin.

I totally agree with Gywndolin being the real enemy, he always seemed to be far to arrogant and manipulative to be a good or neutral person

I did a pretty big analysis on something very simular. I think you'd like my connections I made between Velka and Gwyndolin. If you have time read it and let me know what you think.

https://soulswiki.forumotion.com/t14106-analysis-series-velka-gwyndolin-way-of-the-white-nito-priscilla

Okay so Im gonna have to come to the defense of Gwyndolin as an avid DM. Granted I am a little biased but please hear me out. I do not think that Gwyndolin is evil or the bad guy because you can play through the entire game and never have any direct contact with him whatsoever. He is protecting his father's tomb but that doesn't make him obsessed or evil. If someone was trying to desecrate YOUR fathers tomb, wouldn't you also want to stop them. If Gwyndolin wants you to link the flames, How is that bad? Do not the flames provide warmth and light to the humans. Do you really think that in the Age of Dark the humans will do any better at running the world than the gods did?

If you've played through the dlc and talked to Gough and Ciaren, they both comment on how evil is the true nature of humans. (granted they only say this if you attack them)

I don't think Gwyndolin is the bad guy. In fact i don't think that the bad guy is a person to begin with. The "bad guy" is an all consuming unrelenting force of nihilism and corruption.

The Abyss. You can either fight it off a little longer by linking the fire thus ending the curse of the undead at least temporarily. Or you can give in and let the Abyss win without a fight by becoming the Dark Lord. But even as the Dark Lord you are merely a pawn of the Abyss, lord of nothing but a dark empty shell of a world.

Shkar wrote:Kaathe. He's too ugly not to be evil. And the villain.

I believe almost the exact opposite. Kaathe desires progress for a world suffering in the Age of Fire. While I think that good and evil are certainly not distinct forces in Dark Souls, I think Kaathe is one of the only characters who desires a change that could benefit many rather than just a select group.

Someone up rep thymos if they can spare it.

I was trying to zoom in with my phone and accidently downvoted him.

As for the topic, I believe there is no bad guy or good guy.

Everyone has a little corruption on them, the only clear cut bad guy is Lautrec and he's not THE bad guy.

I think Kaathe is the ultimate villain. This kind of depends on your interpretation of the dark lord ending but with all of the lord souls gone and the gods defeated I see no reason why the abyss wont spread. All sources of light are destroyed including Oolacile which the serpents schemed directly to destroy and to release the abyss upon. We know some form of abyssal demon was present in Astora so who's to say how many other sources of abyss there are that could now engulf which the serpents would benefit from. Unless the lord of water or Flame Lord Flann appear there seems to be nothing to stop the serpents as 8/10 of them could easily knock you over the edge or swallow you whole. The bonfires could still be going but that seems to contradict the age of dark idea as people would still be clinging to fire even dark souls fueled fire?

As for Gwyndolin,I think he loved his farther- spends all of his time in his tomb- and that Frampt convinced Gwyn to link the flame just as he does with you. He was raised as a girl- is smaller than all the other gods seem to be except for those creepy snakes he stands on making him an outcast. He just seems to damaged/lonely and too weak to be the ultimate villain. Rather than driving the Gods out he could have been abandoned. He tries to act tough and confident because that's what his father would do but really I think he's pretty broken, the snakes are a lot more manipulative and evil than he is.

i can certainly see it but the way he acts before your entering the tomb and when you join his cov i just feel he would at least have a part. As for kaathe i do join the DW's granted they are not the nicest people but ive heard to do the right hing sometimes you must do evil. now they may just be bad but i genuinely feel that without the flames the world is better off and let me ask you this. So you go to gwyns kiln and have defeated him and the gods before so you light the flame whoop de do but your locked in that room and you can't help anyone so i hardly see how it would be beneficial. unless someone can bring up a point i missed. Also the abyss was stopped in oolacile when Manus died so i dont see how that would spread unless you mean the abyss in New Londo but even then with the kings dead and after your killing of gwyn how would it spread? i found it just a place of well nothing though that to could be wrong because if you have died by it it looked like people or things had grabbed you and were dragging you down to your death so not sure what that means but just noticed that.

The way I see the link the fire ending is this: you light the first bonfire which is connected to all other bonfires and it takes all the humanity from every other bonfire and uses it in one giant explosion throughout the land. This means when undead die, they stay dead. Balder for example was destroyed by an outbreak of the undead as people hollow and start attacking their husbands, wives and children (there's a place in the Capra demon area with a swarm of hollows holding tourches trapping and killing someone with a twin humanity demonstrating the effect it has on everyone). Alternatively this creates the first flame (seen in the intro) and your character is actually ascending to godhood himself and is therefore powerful enough to help everyone.

As for the abyss it comes from large amounts of humanity or the dark soul-hence manus created a massive abyss under oolacile. This was once contained (by light magic most likely) but once it's released, it spreads as this is the nature of humanity which spreads to every one and as seen in oolacile, it corrupts everything it touches- Artorias, even buildings are destroyed by it. Kaathe is collecting humanity from all of the dark wraiths to recreate the abyss which this time will spread and destroy all land- They even flooded New Londo purely to prevent this happening, killing everyone in the city. Even if this wasn't true, what does your character do after they become the Dark Lord? Sit on a throne while the serpents compliment them? Travel to Astora and demand to be treated as a god?

I don't really think Dark Souls has a good or bad ending, they both seem like dreadful options to me. Either way you're playing the serpents game and that means we lose regardless of what we do unless we kill them, but From had to go and make them indestructable :evil:

i agree we really are in the serpents game personally i want to know what the gods might do if we let them rule. I myself would let Nito rule he my fav and he doesnt do much let alone harm others so im curious aside from that. So lets say your right on the link of the fire and it kills pretty much all undead for good your still trapped in one spot so how are you helping? also how far does the fire reach because if it goes around the world ( my assumption is the world is inflicted with this curse) and kills all the innocent? as for the nature of humanity the game for humanity looks at it as a part or equal to a soul give or take. and artorias as much as i hate to say it may not have been human from lore that i cant remember atm so he may not have been able to defeat the abyss. as for the abyss its all from manus or at least that one seeing as how their is one in new londo maybe kaathe is creating one. im not sure but i feel kaathe is doing the right thing becuase as he said before gwyn tremebled at the dark and defied nature to keep the flames going.