A Theory on Artorius and Manus

I'm not sure if anybody has addressed this before or if it seems obvious, but I figured I'd put in my thoughts.

Artorius is known for falling to the dark and rampaging through Oolacile. But we also know that he fought the Darkwraiths, implying that he would have gone to New Londo. But how and when? For Artorius' story to make sense, when the Abyss began to spread, Artorius would have been dispatched to New Londo in order to deal with the spread of the Abyss and stop the Four Kings.

But he didn't, did he? Which means when he got there something happened that changed the valiant knight. Who do we know that lives down there? Kaathe. Kaathe got to Artorius before he could stop the Four Kings and this is when he must have made the pact with the Abyss. Kaathe tricked him and told him if he truly wanted to stop it, he would have to go to Oolacile.

Granting him some supernatural power of the Abyss, Artorius succumbed to it and before anyone knew what happened he had fallen to dark. After being defeated by the Chosen Undead, Elizabeth preserved his legend. But if he was sent to Oolacile, what would he fight? Manus.

Manus, as far as I stand is the Furtive Pygmy. When he received the fourth Lord Soul, the Dark Soul, the Age of Fire was beginning and its power was minescule. As a Dark Soul, the darker the world, the greater its power. Jealous of the power of his bretherin, the Pygmy began to seek for a new source of power which he found in the Abyss.
Dealing with the Primordial Serpents, the Pygmy became engorged with power and with this, his Lord Soul, his Humanity, shattered driving him crazy. His Lord Soul became Humanity as we know it, the imperfect fragments of the soul.

Humans, undead or no, are imperfect and the Humanity they posses is a reflection of this. Humanity, specifically the sprites in the Abyss always clump close together and always simply move toward you, wanting to be one with their whole again and thus be perfect once more. the pendant Manus desparatly searches for is the one thing he can use to reunite his Humanity into its perfect form, thus becoming perfect himself.

Pretty much all of this is speculation, but it makes some sense to me. If there are any holes in my theory, please let me know and tell me what you guys think!

I'm sure everyone is tired of seeing me link this but it's easier than typing out my theories over and over XD. I had a theory on the "Dark" of the abyss that involves a discription that is on Artoria's Armor. https://soulswiki.forumotion.com/t15104-analysis-series-dark-souls-intro-truths-reveled If you have time please give it a read and let me know what you think.

While the theory of Artorias going to new londo and being corrupted there by kaathe is something to be desputed (Personally i think he only fought darkwraiths who escaped and hunted down humanity before going to oolicile and being killed by manus and his body reanimated) you have touched on one of my big theorys - as the power of the light souls fade so does the power of the dark soul increse. Commendations to you for your logic.

I don't think the pendant has anything to do with humanity, specifically. As you said, humanity seems to try to group up without it. I'm thinking that the Pendant just has fond memories from before he died, and it's the only part of him that is able to remain somewhat-sane in his insanity.

As for Artorias, I believe his ring only began to allow one to walk the Abyss after he was corrupted. After all, the ring isn't needed in Oolacile.

Not sure about the arty bit...

However the manus and humanity is pretty much shown to be the truth (without need for speculation). Just look at the giant humanities and the fact dark magic has the same appearance as humanity.

I find it weird though that when you fight manus you don't need the covenant of artorias to go into the abyss.. that made no sense to me

But when you look at it, there was actually ground, tangible ground. In the Four Kings abyss, you can see absolutely no ground.

As for Artorias, I believe his ring only began to allow one to walk
the Abyss after he was corrupted. After all, the ring isn't needed in
Oolacile.

The timespan between the events in Oolacile and venturing into New Londo is roughly 200 or so years. As much as i hate to bring it up everytime, the Monumental in Demon's Souls talked about lands that had been "banished to infinite darkness" and by definition the thing needed for this was the absence of souls/humanity in the land in question. Just look at New Londo, no bonfires, hollow people everywhere, drowned corpses... Only ghosts, abominations and Darkwraiths roam the flooded streets.

I think people are flying a bit off the tangents when it comes to analyzing the Abyss, as the time when the Chosen Undead visits Oolacile, the process of the Abyss spreading is in it's first stages. Artorias roused Manus, the result was another Abyss starting to take place.

I think New Londo was abandoned by Anor Londo. The citizens of New Londo celebrated humankind and accepted Undead, and practiced Sorcery rather than having faith in the Lords. Like Oolacile, the residents of NL attempted to use Sorceries to imitate what would normally be Miracles performed by gods (manipulating light and healing curses/poisons/diseases, respectively). Even worse, they regarded the moon as higher than the sun (seen on the Crimson Robe).

New Londo simply wasn't a priority for Artorias. He went to New Londo, fought some Darkwraiths, decided it wasn't worth it and the city was done for, then left. Later, when a similar event happened in Oolacile, Artorias was the de facto guy to send in to investigate since he had seen it before.

That doesnt make much sense, as the Sealers (and especially Ingvard) along with the Four Kings were on very favourable standing with Gwyn, he even bequathed a part of his soul to all of them.

For all its worth, the timeline just doesn't match up. If a premature chasm of an abyss doesn't harm the traveler within it, but a land swallowed comletely by darkness does, then at what point did Artorias visit New Londo? After Gwyn's departure is the only option and considering this, we know that Gwyn departed prior to the events in Oolacile.

Am i really led to believe that Gwyn used himself as a fuel for a grand fire for MORE than two centuries? No wonder the man is hollow, insane and drained of all essence when you face him...

New Londo fell to Dark after Gwyn's departure. Naturally. Gwyn wouldn't have given the Four Kings part of his Lord's Soul while they sought the power of Dark.

NL turned to Dark after the sunlight began to fade.

The covenant isn't needed in Oolacile because it isn't the abyss, it is the Darkness which emanates from Manus...plus you have to take into account that before the DLC things were changed due to being rushed...so the DLC is kind of a retcon on the whole abyss thing.

With that said, I like the OPs theory, Arty went to New Londo first because Kaathe had subverted the 4Ks while Gough was sent to Oolacile to figure out what was goin down there but Kaathe intercepted Arty and decieved him, telling him that Oolacile was where he needed to go and created the covenant with him. He might have needed the covenant to traverse the abyss because he, as Elizabeth states "has nary a bit of dark about him" meaning he was a creature without humanity and without the ability to move within it without great immediate harm. We can see this as we, the chosen undead do not need a covenant to enter Oolacile's darkness and the humanity sprites floating around and what not.

This makes the fact that we need the ring for the 4Ks simply a rushed game mechanic or a reason to go to Sif.....oh, I just thought of something....OR the 4Ks "Abyss" isnt really an Abyss at all, but rather a magical creation or perversion designed to protect the DWs.

The Abyss in New Londo is just an advanced form of the Abyss in Oolacile. This is why the Covenant is needed to traverse the one in New Londo but not the one in Oolacile.

Sir Mandred wrote:That doesnt make much sense, as the Sealers (and especially Ingvard) along with the Four Kings were on very favourable standing with Gwyn, he even bequathed a part of his soul to all of them.

For all its worth, the timeline just doesn't match up. If a premature chasm of an abyss doesn't harm the traveler within it, but a land swallowed comletely by darkness does, then at what point did Artorias visit New Londo? After Gwyn's departure is the only option and considering this, we know that Gwyn departed prior to the events in Oolacile.

Am i really led to believe that Gwyn used himself as a fuel for a grand fire for MORE than two centuries? No wonder the man is hollow, insane and drained of all essence when you face him...

Gwyn has been burning for a thousand years. Frampt says something along those lines.

DE5PA1R wrote:The Abyss in New Londo is just an advanced form of the Abyss in Oolacile. This is why the Covenant is needed to traverse the one in New Londo but not the one in Oolacile.

I don't know about that...it really wouldn't be very prudent to have an abyss that kills everyone if they don't have a covenant...and really who wants to be Lord of a bunch of penile looking serpents...it would be very lonely in the Dark...I'm sticking more toward a perversion of the Dark, kind of a pocket plane.

alchemydesign wrote:

DE5PA1R wrote:The Abyss in New Londo is just an advanced form of the Abyss in Oolacile. This is why the Covenant is needed to traverse the one in New Londo but not the one in Oolacile.

I don't know about that...it really wouldn't be very prudent to have an abyss that kills everyone if they don't have a covenant...and really who wants to be Lord of a bunch of penile looking serpents...it would be very lonely in the Dark...I'm sticking more toward a perversion of the Dark, kind of a pocket plane.

1. The Chasm of the Abyss is exactly like what we see in New Londo. A series of structures that is being swallowed up by nothingness below. The Abyss is actively turning the Chasm into nothingness. There are structures that have been eaten through and a broken bridge once surrounded by structures. Without the player rescuing Oolacile, it's clear that the Chasm of the Abyss would soon become exactly like The Abyss in NL.

2. You can see symptoms of the Abyss - the black crystals - above the Chasm in the Royal Wood. There is Abyssal substance/aura eating away at the ground. You can look right at it.

3. You can get outside the map in New Londo, fall through the floor and directly into the Abyss. With the Covenant of Artorias equipped, the boss fight actually starts. That's not the behavior of a pocket dimension.

4. Humanity is common and valued in both the Chasm and the Abyss of NL. The only difference is that Kaathe is harvesting all the Humanity in NL.

Too many similarities for it to be a coincidence.