New Londo was the first human city in Lordran?

Think about this. You're a human in Lordran, you're hated by Gwyn and his followers, but you have no where else to go. So you build a city away from Gwyn right under his nose, and let you're fellow human outcasts join you, make a society, eat cake bla bla bla. My main argument for that this is a human city is the Darkwraiths that reside here. They must be human. They have been mutated by the abyss, similar to the residents of Oolacile. The four kings, like Manus, mutated as well (they use Life Drain, which steals humanity, so it makes sense that their humanity went wild as well because they drained tons of it). Surely if a none human went their, they would get slaughtered by the knights?

My friend asked me why New Londo? I believe that it is a insult to Gwyn, it's basically saying 'our londo is better then yours!' That is my view anyway. Although, it does raise the question of how Kaathe got there? I don't know that part, some one tell me please.

I am not certain about the lore, but it was a residential area known for its culture. the four kings of new londo were each given a piece of a lord soul by gwyn for their leadership. However, they ended up falling to the darkness and their knights turning into the darkwraiths, which hungered endlessly for humanity. The 4 sealers sacrificed all the the humans(now the ghosts) to flood new londo and stop the dark wraiths from spreading throughout Tamriel. Also, no people lived in Anor Londo. All of the humans lived in New londo.

I think naming it 'New Londo' was a testament to Anor Londo, not an insult to it. I think New York was not named such by English colonists to diss York. (neither, I think, were all of the other cities in America that are named after African/European/Asian cities)
I also think that humans seeking into Anor Londo were just turned away, not 'slaughtered.' Based on the history that Gwyn gave part of his soul to the kings of New Londo, I think the two states were originally peaceful (at least enough) towards each other.

sergeantstrawbery wrote:I am not certain about the lore, but it was a residential area known for its culture. the four kings of new londo were each given a piece of a lord soul by gwyn for their leadership. However, they ended up falling to the darkness and their knights turning into the darkwraiths, which hungered endlessly for humanity. The 4 sealers sacrificed all the the humans(now the ghosts) to flood new londo and stop the dark wraiths from spreading throughout Tamriel. Also, no people lived in Anor Londo. All of the humans lived in New londo.

1. Forgot about the soul part
2. TAMRIEL!?!?!

The Abyss seems to follow several symbolic and traditional rules for "dark" powers. The first is that it is weakened by light, hence the silver amulet in Oolacile requiring a light source to obtain, showing that the finder is not "dark." Secondly is that it is severely hampered, if not damaged, by water. It is what was used to seal off New Londo, and we can even guess that the hydra lake was altered somewhat to be an actual lake, so that the water would wash away the darkness.

In short, the surface world would be nearly inhabitable for the Abyss, which shrinks in the presence of light and water, which abound on the surface. So where else to go but the underground city?

It's really unlikely that the gods hated humans. They had no reason to and to the best of my knowledge there's no evidence to support that idea. As for Kaathe: the mofo eats Humanity. He's a greedy serpent. He sniffs the stuff out and harvests it whenever and wherever he can.

Anor Londo was a holy place. It's where the gods and their otherworldly servants dwelled. In almost any Western religion, gods and people don't live in the same place. We can think of Anor Londo as Olympus. New Londo was just another city, but since it was in the Land of Lords, was a cultural epicenter and its kings were well-respected by Gwyn we can assume it was a heck of a city.

We know it was also an Undead city at one point, likely the first time the First Flame began to fade, before Gwyn linked the fire. Perhaps it became an Undead city again before it was flooded, though if that's the case then the timeline is a little screwy.

However, we know that after Gwyn left the city was corrupted. There are quite a few hints about this that haven't been pointed out in some of the popular vids out there. For one thing, the Crimson Robe of the sealers clearly shows the crescent moon ABOVE the sun. Remember that the Sealers were the good guys in the New Londo story; well-respected and ultimately tragic figures. Also, we know they created sorceries like Remedy that imitated and infringed on the gods' territory. And, of course, the Four Kings ordeal.

Probably wrong but isn't the kiln of the first flame the location of the first human city? I struggle with judging where everything is from top to bottom in relation to each other but we know it's quite far down which the first civilization would be as the world was originally one giant ash lake. This is part of a theory that the Gods were actually humans orginally and had some form of life before finding the flames and it makes sense that they would build a small city just above ash lake or within it. I always got the feeling the kiln was destroyed by dragons before it was burned by Gwyns sacrifice due to the burnt ruins pointing in a circle as if dragons flew overhead in formation otherwise everything should be aiming away from the centre. I know this is a minor detail to go on but I think something had to start the war and maybe the dragons fire used to destroy the city was the flames the Lords used to destroy the dragons in return. Or maybe the destruction of the city inspired a higher god (Prometheus- Titan who technically came before Zeus) to give humans fire so that they could defend themselves.

Thanks if you read through this, I know it's entirely speculation but the Kiln always intrigued me and the stairs outside it that lead to 9 goblets I think.

If we take the intro narrative literally, life could not have predated the First Flame. Also, the First Flame was within/under an Archtree, which is lower than anything we see in-game.

I don't think anything provoked, or had to provoke, the dragons. They just kill things.

Just re-watched the opening cutscene- somehow I never realised that it was one giant fire that the 4 each visited separately and collected their individual Lord Soul. So if it to be believed then you're right there was no life before the first flame.

Still don't understand what the kiln of the first flame actually was. It had a giant wall (which people in dark souls seem to love) and the tower which makes it look like a city, maybe it was evacuated before Gwyn linked the flame destroying it. If it is just the place of the first bonfire that connects them all then why build around it unless it was the first city and the bonfire was made to take away the humanity of a small case of undead who had more than one piece of humanity so they would burn it up in the bonfire but then Gwyn built more and more cities higher and higher and abandoned this one but seeing its importance as the bonfire that links all others, he built the shrine to make sure he could one day return there.

As for human cities anyway Oolacile seems pretty ancient as it was built on top of Manus's cell? Whatever it was that actually kept him imprisoned (a light sphere of magic like the thing that actually protected Sif?) Apart from fearing the Dark Lord I don't think the Gods hated humans and probably let or even helped them build cities near Anor Londo. Gwyn was friends with Havel the Bishop who was a human and who probably convinced others to worship Gwyn so i see no reason to think New Londo came before any other human cities.

CakeThiefPro wrote:Just re-watched the opening cutscene- somehow I never realised that it was one giant fire that the 4 each visited separately and collected their individual Lord Soul. So if it to be believed then you're right there was no life before the first flame.

Still don't understand what the kiln of the first flame actually was. It had a giant wall (which people in dark souls seem to love) and the tower which makes it look like a city, maybe it was evacuated before Gwyn linked the flame destroying it. If it is just the place of the first bonfire that connects them all then why build around it unless it was the first city and the bonfire was made to take away the humanity of a small case of undead who had more than one piece of humanity so they would burn it up in the bonfire but then Gwyn built more and more cities higher and higher and abandoned this one but seeing its importance as the bonfire that links all others, he built the shrine to make sure he could one day return there.

As for human cities anyway Oolacile seems pretty ancient as it was built on top of Manus's cell? Whatever it was that actually kept him imprisoned (a light sphere of magic like the thing that actually protected Sif?) Apart from fearing the Dark Lord I don't think the Gods hated humans and probably let or even helped them build cities near Anor Londo. Gwyn was friends with Havel the Bishop who was a human and who probably convinced others to worship Gwyn so i see no reason to think New Londo came before any other human cities.

Don't feel like writing, so a few blurbs will do.

We don't know how long Manus was dead, but it was his grave, not his cell that we fight near. Though, now I want to draw a parallel between the abyss and undeath...

We don't know that Havel was a human. Given that he survived from the war against the Dragons, he is likely whatever the heck the silver knights are.

We also have no evidence that the gods actually feared the "Dark Lord." He is only ever brought up by one npc, who clearly is serving his own goals, not yours.