Kaathe/Darkwraiths/The Abyss--Hold On, What?

So, this has been bothering me for a while--allow me to explain myself.

From where I stand, I see the Abyss as being a largely negative mechanism in the game (e.g., it corrupted Artorias, Kaathe lives there and he's responsible for the corruption of New Londo kings, etc.), but when presented with the option to talk to either Kaathe or Frampt, Kaathe seems to have the implied "Age of Man" as his motive for selection (whereas Frampt wants you to link the fire and continue the age of the gods). This could just be me, but if Kaathe is for humanity and against the gods--which is safe to assume judging by his rivalry with Frampt, who was Gwyn's buddy--why is he kicked back, chilling in the Abyss? Maybe we're not meant to trust him and in not linking the fire, you usher in an age of darkness consistent with the Abyss (wildly speculating now)? If someone could give me some insight, it would be greatly appreciated.

Another concern of mine is the 4 kings and the Darkwraiths, and the role of the sealers. Going from the standpoint that Kaathe is "good" (assuming player sentiment towards a human-dependent society detached from the gods), how did he "corrupt" the 4 kings? Or was that just the Abyss that he happens to dwell in? And the darkwraiths--even after forming a covenant with Kaathe, they attack you. Going off of that, I can assume a couple different things, but here's what I'm thinking currently: The Abyss was responsible for the corruption of the 4 Kings of New Londo. Kaathe is responsible for the Darkwraiths. Somewhere along the line, the Darkwraiths go rogue (hence explaining why they attack the player whilst in the same covenant--perhaps they do not feel they are bound by it), and the sealers, seeing the potential for destruction, agree to flood the previously-contained New Londo. And the sealers--where did they come from, and why didn't they act when the Darkwraiths were first presented (or did they, or does anyone even know?)

All that speculation aside (and believe me, I'm guessing a lot--I'm somewhat new to this whole lore thing, so please don't jump on me too hard if I'm wrong!), I still don't fully understand why Kaathe would be volunteering to help the player if he's allied with the Abyss and such. Yes, perhaps he's simply looking to human weakness in order to achieve an ends which he would find suitable (in other words, he's tricking you), but I feel like everything he says makes sense in conjunction with the beginning cutscene (about the Dark Soul, the pygmy, etc). It all seems quite suspect in the end though, so I'm not sure what to think. Any feedback would be greatly appreciated, and I apologize in advance for this overlong post!

-Jack

No posts? Ill try and get the ball rolling.
Danger Spoilers!
Don’t read anymore if you have not seen both endings!!!!



Ok if we go will with the simple setup, Frampt wants light, Kaathe wants dark.

So keeping specifics to a minimum, whatever Gwin did seems to have shut down the “dark” and made “light” the main way of life around the land.

Kaathe wants dark, so he tells you to go and bust Gwin and just walk away. As a bonus he tells you how man is going to rule instead of those no good gods.

What's the end game if you go with Kaathe’s plan? You become the big boss of the dark (abyss).

But what happened to the other big bosses of the dark (abyss)? They all went bonkers and attack anything that moves (just like the dark wraths that attack you even if you are members of their club).
So Kaathe plans on just wating until the new “dark lord” loses his/her mind and then it will be back to the good old days like he wants.

Now for some WILD speculation just to create some controversy.

Perhaps Kaathe (and the rest of his worm brethren in the ending) are able to control the minds of subjects corrupted by the abyss. The lordvessle also has a corrupting influence, so if you take out the 4 kings while holding it Kaathe makes his move. Tells you what you want to hear so he can replace the 4 kings with the “dark lord”.
If you have already set the lordvessle for Frampt, then Kaathe just waits in the shadows for the next round, he knows the new fire will start to go out eventually and perhaps he can talk the next "fire linker" into doing his bidding.

I love you people. Not being dark-loving bat-people, as fun as they can be to debate with <3

First off, I really appreciate your feedback--thanks!

I really like this idea of the lordvessel being the source of corruption and Kaathe biding his time--I never thought of it that way. Very, very interesting...

Also, going along with this theme of the player becoming the Dark Lord, would they become something akin to Manus?

And the abyss would eventually take over the entire world, as I understand it...so I guess humanity's rule would be cut short by cataclysm? Interesting stuff.

Again, thanks for the input!

1. Don't assume Kaathe and Frampt are 2 different entities. The Caduceus Round Shield shows us a 2-headed serpent right next to Frampt's sleeping place. Unlikely this is coincidence.

2. Related to #1, don't assume Kaathe and Frampt have different underlying motivations. Their apparent motives are pretty clear, but at least one of them is a liar and they're out to screw you in the end.

3. Serpents are symbols of greed for reason. I have no doubt that if Frampt was a friend of Gwyn, he was manipulating the throne for his own ends.

4. If Frampt and Kaathe are both the same serpent, they/it are most likely just trying to hedge their bets.

DE5PA1R wrote:1. Don't assume Kaathe and Frampt are 2 different entities. The Caduceus Round Shield shows us a 2-headed serpent right next to Frampt's sleeping place. Unlikely this is coincidence.

2. Related to #1, don't assume Kaathe and Frampt have different underlying motivations. Their apparent motives are pretty clear, but at least one of them is a liar and they're out to screw you in the end.

3. Serpents are symbols of greed for reason. I have no doubt that if Frampt was a friend of Gwyn, he was manipulating the throne for his own ends.

4. If Frampt and Kaathe are both the same serpent, they/it are most likely just trying to hedge their bets.

That would be quite the trick is the other end of Frampt is Kaathe.
I guess the questions would be, does one know what the other is up to?

But the main question would be this:
Is Frampt flat out lying? He sure seems burned up at you when you go with Kaathe's plan.
But is that part of the "sell" on the dark lord idea they are pushing....hmmmm... so many questions.

Fun Fact: "Kaathe and Frampt" may actually be in this ancient Mayan stone coffin lid (kind of hard to see at first. Two headed snake near middle, their mouths are open). From may have been inspired by this, the back story on Mayan serpents is really close to Dark Souls.

DE5PA1R wrote:1. Don't assume Kaathe and Frampt are 2 different entities. The Caduceus Round Shield shows us a 2-headed serpent right next to Frampt's sleeping place. Unlikely this is coincidence.

2. Related to #1, don't assume Kaathe and Frampt have different underlying motivations. Their apparent motives are pretty clear, but at least one of them is a liar and they're out to screw you in the end.

3. Serpents are symbols of greed for reason. I have no doubt that if Frampt was a friend of Gwyn, he was manipulating the throne for his own ends.

4. If Frampt and Kaathe are both the same serpent, they/it are most likely just trying to hedge their bets.

1. I'm completely open to this idea--never noticed that. Thanks for pointing it out!

2. I always assumed that they were both out to screw you over, but their face motives couldn't be more different, which leads me to believe that--assuming cooperation with each other--neither cares what outcome there is because regardless, as long as Gwyn is out of the way, they can achieve the ends to their means (whatever that may be), and they do that by appealing to one extreme or the other. If they aren't cooperating, then...what?

3. Agreed. I've always thought that Frampt being all close with Gwyn and then wanting you to kill him was incredibly suspicious.

4. As stated in 2, agreed.

prophetteonit wrote:...Agreed. I've always thought that Frampt being all close with Gwyn and then wanting you to kill him was incredibly suspicious.

There is a big opportunity in Dark Souls 2 to fill in one of the major mystery's of Dark Souls 1:

What does Gwyn think of all this! What was he reaaally up to.
Everyone in the game tells you what Gwyn wants you to do... everyone but Gwyn himself =P

May not be about the fire, light, dark at all... that would be quite the change up.

MosquitoPower wrote:

DE5PA1R wrote:1. Don't assume Kaathe and Frampt are 2 different entities. The Caduceus Round Shield shows us a 2-headed serpent right next to Frampt's sleeping place. Unlikely this is coincidence.

2. Related to #1, don't assume Kaathe and Frampt have different underlying motivations. Their apparent motives are pretty clear, but at least one of them is a liar and they're out to screw you in the end.

3. Serpents are symbols of greed for reason. I have no doubt that if Frampt was a friend of Gwyn, he was manipulating the throne for his own ends.

4. If Frampt and Kaathe are both the same serpent, they/it are most likely just trying to hedge their bets.

That would be quite the trick is the other end of Frampt is Kaathe.
I guess the questions would be, does one know what the other is up to?

But the main question would be this:
Is Frampt flat out lying? He sure seems burned up at you when you go with Kaathe's plan.
But is that part of the "sell" on the dark lord idea they are pushing....hmmmm... so many questions.

Don't assume that their goal is really to make you the dark lord. If they truly are working towards a common goal, it wouldn't make sense for that goal to be to place you on a throne. Frampt goes the completely opposite direction in that regard.

Instead, look at what both serpents want you to do: Fill the lordvessel and kill Gwyn. Their plans are identical to that point, and they don't vary until then. So it seems probable to me that their goal is actually just for you to do that, and the different "endings" are how they try to convince you to do so.

They don't know what the CU will be like, selfish or selfless. So in playing both sides, they double their chances to succeed.

It's kinda hard to gauge a Primordial Serpent- they seem to be very capricious creatures. One tricked that Princess Dusk into freeing Manus and we all know how that went.

Frampt helps you, but he neglets to tell you that in order to succeed Gwyn you need to burn alive for eternity. Kaathe says it more like it is-Kill Gwyn and become the Lord of the Dark. And even Frampt bows down to you in the Dark Lord ending, so Kaathe is kinda closer to the truth. Frampt just seems to be neglectful with his information

In all, I don't really trust either of them, but...as odd as it sounds, I would say Kaathe is more truthful- after all, the Undead only started showing up when Gwyn went and forcibly prolonged the Age of Fire, despite Frampt claiming that you succeeding Gwyn would stop the Undead Curse. He also says you'll become Lord of the Dark. Seeing as the player has already been in the Abyss and could have killed the maker of the Abyss and killed Gods, it seems doable.

As for Frampt, when you open the Kiln door, he remarks for you to enjoy your "serendipity" which means a
"happy accident" or a "pleasant surprise." Frampt, being forced to burn
alive is not a happy accident or a pleasant surprise. So Frampt tries
to twist his way as a better idea and seems more manipulative about it. Kaathe is straight up in his facts to an extent-he's right in the fact the Age of Fire needs to die. We have had the whole Age of Ancients (when dragons ruled), then the Age of Fire, now it's time to move onto the next age. Gwyn has already caused a crapload of problems in forcing it to extend, hence the whole Undead thing. So I think Kaathe has a better idea about letting the Flame go out, rather than prolonging everything.

As for the Darkwraiths....I think they are just a bunch of gankers, hence why we invade and kill other people. Little wonder we kill and invade each other XD I simply view that Covenant as "every Undead for themselves" hence the attacking of each other. I don't think Kaathe got them deliberately corrupted by the Abyss.

After all, Manus started the Abyss thing, and a Primordial Serpent tricked the Princess into freeing him. I don't think it was Kaathe though, as I don't think he would want everyone insane and crazy since he would most likely get killed as well, or become corrupted after a while.

As for the meeting in the Abyss...well, I thought it was to show a contrast between the two serpents. Frampt hangs out at the clubhouse, where there are trees and grass and sunlight and it's all bright and chirpy, while Kaathe hangs out in a place that is just pitch black with nothing. You could even say it's a manipulative thing on Frampt's part- he's trying to make himself look way more approachable so you'll do his bidding more willingly, while Kaathe doesn't really care about that. Also, he could just like the Abyss since he can move a lot more freely, unlike Frampt who's stuck in a hole.So I don't think Kaathe is allied with the Abyss-Since the Chosen Undead can kill Manus, Father of the Abyss and Kaathe doesn't give a crap.

I don't have much to add that hasn't already been said but, I only had to look around at the arena where you fight Gwyn to decide that the age of fire had to go.

Oh and interestingly- Kaathe was telling the truth when he claimed the Fugitive Pygmy was the ancestor of the Chosen Undead which is why they would usher in the Age of Man/Dark. Word of God confirms that the Pygmy is the ancestor of humans, hence why there are so many massive animals/people walking about and humans are so small in comparison; we are the pygmy race of Lordran.

So Kaathe is more truthful than Frampt in that aspect.

Kaathe might be telling the truth, but he might be doing that to gain your confidence.
For example I help this guy out 3 times, he then trusts me a lot and would never expect a betrayal.
That's what Kaathe's doing

Kaathe doesn't betray you though- he straight up tells you he wants you to kill Gwyn and bring on the Age of Man/Dark.
Frampt on the other hand neglects to mention you need to kill Gwyn and burn alive in order to succeed him. He also lies about you burning would stop the Undead from happening; Gwyn forcibly prolonging the Age of Fire is what caused the Undead in the first place.

ExplodingPenguin wrote:Kaathe doesn't betray you though- he straight up tells you he wants you to kill Gwyn and bring on the Age of Man/Dark.
Frampt on the other hand neglects to mention you need to kill Gwyn and burn alive in order to succeed him. He also lies about you burning would stop the Undead from happening; Gwyn forcibly prolonging the Age of Fire is what caused the Undead in the first place.

No, the intro says that the undead curse appeared because the flame started to burn out. Remember, they already have legends about undead by the time we start going around: that suggests there has been an undead curse before. Say, like when the flame started to die the first time.

Shkar wrote:

ExplodingPenguin wrote:Kaathe doesn't betray you though- he straight up tells you he wants you to kill Gwyn and bring on the Age of Man/Dark.
Frampt on the other hand neglects to mention you need to kill Gwyn and burn alive in order to succeed him. He also lies about you burning would stop the Undead from happening; Gwyn forcibly prolonging the Age of Fire is what caused the Undead in the first place.

No, the intro says that the undead curse appeared because the flame started to burn out. Remember, they already have legends about undead by the time we start going around: that suggests there has been an undead curse before. Say, like when the flame started to die the first time.

No it doesn't- the intro just states that there are only embers of the Flame left, which causes the Darksign- the Ember being Gwyn burning to try and keep the Flame alive.

But regardless, Frampt is blatantly lying when he claims you burning would do away the Undead Curse.

ExplodingPenguin wrote:

Shkar wrote:

ExplodingPenguin wrote:Kaathe doesn't betray you though- he straight up tells you he wants you to kill Gwyn and bring on the Age of Man/Dark.
Frampt on the other hand neglects to mention you need to kill Gwyn and burn alive in order to succeed him. He also lies about you burning would stop the Undead from happening; Gwyn forcibly prolonging the Age of Fire is what caused the Undead in the first place.

No, the intro says that the undead curse appeared because the flame started to burn out. Remember, they already have legends about undead by the time we start going around: that suggests there has been an undead curse before. Say, like when the flame started to die the first time.

No it doesn't- the intro just states that there are only embers of the Flame left, which causes the Darksign- the Ember being Gwyn burning to try and keep the Flame alive.

But regardless, Frampt is blatantly lying when he claims you burning would do away the Undead Curse.

"Even now, there are only embers, and man sees not light, but only endless nights.
And amongst the living are seen, carriers of the accursed Darksign."

Even if your analysis about it only talking about the embers is correct, there is no support for it referring to Gwyn. Whether you look at it as an actual fire or a literary metaphor, the embers refer to it having burned down.

ember
noun
1. a small live piece of coal, wood, etc., as in a dying fire.
2. embers, the smoldering remains of a fire.

Shkar wrote:

ExplodingPenguin wrote:

Shkar wrote:

ExplodingPenguin wrote:Kaathe doesn't betray you though- he straight up tells you he wants you to kill Gwyn and bring on the Age of Man/Dark.
Frampt on the other hand neglects to mention you need to kill Gwyn and burn alive in order to succeed him. He also lies about you burning would stop the Undead from happening; Gwyn forcibly prolonging the Age of Fire is what caused the Undead in the first place.

No, the intro says that the undead curse appeared because the flame started to burn out. Remember, they already have legends about undead by the time we start going around: that suggests there has been an undead curse before. Say, like when the flame started to die the first time.

No it doesn't- the intro just states that there are only embers of the Flame left, which causes the Darksign- the Ember being Gwyn burning to try and keep the Flame alive.

But regardless, Frampt is blatantly lying when he claims you burning would do away the Undead Curse.

"Even now, there are only embers, and man sees not light, but only endless nights.
And amongst the living are seen, carriers of the accursed Darksign."

Even if your analysis about it only talking about the embers is correct, there is no support for it referring to Gwyn. Whether you look at it as an actual fire or a literary metaphor, the embers refer to it having burned down.

ember
noun
1. a small live piece of coal, wood, etc., as in a dying fire.
2. embers, the smoldering remains of a fire.

Okay, so how about we agree it's really vague when the whole Undead thing occurs.

Still shows Frampt is a liar though.

They both want Gwyn to be succeeded.

Frampt makes it sound like a walk in the park and neglects to tell the player that s/he will be sacrificing themselves; Kaathe tells the truth about the origin of the dark soul, etc., making him, in retrospect, more reliable.

Gwyn may not have created the undead BY prolonging the flame, but it was a byproduct of the circumstances created by his prolongation, suggesting that he was responsible in a roundabout way.

In other words, Frampt is a deceitful bastard, Kaathe is less so; Gwyn done messed up big time, so he has to go. And you get caught right in the middle of the whole mess.

prophetteonit wrote:They both want Gwyn to be succeeded.

Frampt makes it sound like a walk in the park and neglects to tell the player that s/he will be sacrificing themselves; Kaathe tells the truth about the origin of the dark soul, etc., making him, in retrospect, more reliable.

Gwyn may not have created the undead BY prolonging the flame, but it was a byproduct of the circumstances created by his prolongation, suggesting that he was responsible in a roundabout way.

In other words, Frampt is a deceitful bastard, Kaathe is less so; Gwyn done messed up big time, so he has to go. And you get caught right in the middle of the whole mess.

Too be fair, Kaathe could be lying just as much about the Dark Soul. His is the only knowledge we get in respect to that.

And while I can certainly see why Frampt was deceitful and why Gwyn has to be succeeded, I don't really see how Gwyn "messed up." His goal was to preserve the flame, and he did; you can't fault a guy for not being able to be used as an infinite power source.

Shkar wrote:

prophetteonit wrote:They both want Gwyn to be succeeded.

Frampt makes it sound like a walk in the park and neglects to tell the player that s/he will be sacrificing themselves; Kaathe tells the truth about the origin of the dark soul, etc., making him, in retrospect, more reliable.

Gwyn may not have created the undead BY prolonging the flame, but it was a byproduct of the circumstances created by his prolongation, suggesting that he was responsible in a roundabout way.

In other words, Frampt is a deceitful bastard, Kaathe is less so; Gwyn done messed up big time, so he has to go. And you get caught right in the middle of the whole mess.

Too be fair, Kaathe could be lying just as much about the Dark Soul. His is the only knowledge we get in respect to that.

And while I can certainly see why Frampt was deceitful and why Gwyn has to be succeeded, I don't really see how Gwyn "messed up." His goal was to preserve the flame, and he did; you can't fault a guy for not being able to be used as an infinite power source.

I don't fault him for that, but his refusal to usher in the Age of Man after the Age of Fire just seems self-centered (even if he was doing it for the collective sake of the other gods, 1000 years--or however long it was--is a long time for entities to be holding sway over human actions). It's been said that the Age of Man is comparable to the Renaissance, which I am in favor of. Basically, all I'm trying to say is that Gwyn pushed something past its due date, so it expired, which is a puzzling move to me. Regardless of whether he thought he was doing the right thing or not, the consequences were largely negative. He preserved the flame for too long and at too great a cost.

That said, I will concede that Kaathe could have been lying about his motives, but it was pointed out earlier that he doesn't sweet-talk you or appear to you in a place of beauty--quite the opposite. He does appear to be more legitimate than Frampt. Now, this could be construed as part of his ruse, but I believe he also gives you the truth about the Dark Soul (the only reason I'm maintaining this is because he mentions the furtive Pygmy, who we know obtained the Dark Soul). He doesn't BS you like Frampt does with his "chosen undead" crap--he's straight-up with the player. Even if he's deceitful (which I'm sure he is), he is less apparently so in the end, leaving more up to speculation and less up to fact (e.g., you burn to death with Frampt's ending, which proves his betrayal, but there is no such concrete evidence with the Dark Lord ending).

I've said it before, and I'll say it again: we have no clue what the Age of Man will actually bring, while we have a fairly decent idea what the Age of Fire is like.

Now, taking a risk is good, in the right circumstances. If the risks are reasonable, or the need is dire.

But that's where we get into issues; there are signs that the downturn of the world is related to the dieing of the flame. The Undead, the "eternal nights", etc. I've speculated before about how this ties into the disparity the glame made, and how it going FUBAR suggests that disparity will die along with the flame.

So, risking the entire world/universe for the sake of throwing off the rule of what some believe to be tyrants is not a fair risk. The reward just isn't worth it.

Now, here's where I diverge. If you have ever taken a literature class, you know authors pick everything in their stories for a reason. That is to say, there is a reason rhe flame is a fire, and not a tree or something.

They wanted you to think of it like a fire. And a fire DOES generate light and heat, and generally die, and is a symnol of power. All of which the flame is, of course.

But a fire doesn't get worse when you kindle it. It doesn't burn out faster each time, it doesn't turn the air into a deadly neurotoxin (disregarding smoke). It just blazes back up. As long as you keep adding fuel, it would burn forever.

Shkar wrote:I've said it before, and I'll say it again: we have no clue what the Age of Man will actually bring, while we have a fairly decent idea what the Age of Fire is like.

Now, taking a risk is good, in the right circumstances. If the risks are reasonable, or the need is dire.

But that's where we get into issues; there are signs that the downturn of the world is related to the dieing of the flame. The Undead, the "eternal nights", etc. I've speculated before about how this ties into the disparity the glame made, and how it going FUBAR suggests that disparity will die along with the flame.

So, risking the entire world/universe for the sake of throwing off the rule of what some believe to be tyrants is not a fair risk. The reward just isn't worth it.

Now, here's where I diverge. If you have ever taken a literature class, you know authors pick everything in their stories for a reason. That is to say, there is a reason rhe flame is a fire, and not a tree or something.

They wanted you to think of it like a fire. And a fire DOES generate light and heat, and generally die, and is a symnol of power. All of which the flame is, of course.

But a fire doesn't get worse when you kindle it. It doesn't burn out faster each time, it doesn't turn the air into a deadly neurotoxin (disregarding smoke). It just blazes back up. As long as you keep adding fuel, it would burn forever.

They need to stop trying to prevent the Age of Dark/Man from happening. It's just causing problems.

The Undead is a purely human trait, no one else is afflicted by it. It's one of reasons why Undead can regain their normal flesh via humanity. The Pygmy, who's been confirmed as humanities ancestor, found the Dark Soul; "It found the Lord Soul and humanity is like a fragment of it. Kinda like an ancestor, so the descendants have a part of that soul."
So being Undead is something only humans can be afflicted by and only certain humans catch it, hence why some get the Darksign and others don't. It's like a trait, so to speak.

Gwyn is causing problems by trying to prolonging the Age of Fire; instead of just dying, it's dying incredibly slowly. He's afraid of change and that is making problems.

Even the Witch of Izalith screwed things up monumentally; by trying to re-create the First Flame, she got turned into a bug/Bed Of Chaos which is the source of all demons.

And just because the Age of Fire is going, doesn't mean every flame is going to be snuffed out. It will simply change.

In my opinion, we humans can't really screw things up as bad as the previous Lords. They need to let go of the Age of Fire and bring on the new Age.

@ExplodingPenguin

I agree wholeheartedly. Gwyn's not doing humanity any favors by desperately trying to cling to the last shreds of his rule.