Kaathe/Darkwraiths/The Abyss--Hold On, What?

Shkar wrote:

ExplodingPenguin wrote:Kaathe doesn't betray you though- he straight up tells you he wants you to kill Gwyn and bring on the Age of Man/Dark.
Frampt on the other hand neglects to mention you need to kill Gwyn and burn alive in order to succeed him. He also lies about you burning would stop the Undead from happening; Gwyn forcibly prolonging the Age of Fire is what caused the Undead in the first place.

No, the intro says that the undead curse appeared because the flame started to burn out. Remember, they already have legends about undead by the time we start going around: that suggests there has been an undead curse before. Say, like when the flame started to die the first time.

I corrected myself in my latest posts on the issue.

Now for the post I was going to post last night before my internet died:

ExplodingPenguin wrote:

They need to stop trying to prevent the Age of Dark/Man from happening. It's just causing problems.

The Undead is a purely human trait, no one else is afflicted by it. It's one of reasons why Undead can regain their normal flesh via humanity. The Pygmy, who's been confirmed as humanities ancestor, found the Dark Soul; "It found the Lord Soul and humanity is like a fragment of it. Kinda like an ancestor, so the descendants have a part of that soul."
So being Undead is something only humans can be afflicted by and only certain humans catch it, hence why some get the Darksign and others don't. It's like a trait, so to speak.

Gwyn is causing problems by trying to prolonging the Age of Fire; instead of just dying, it's dying incredibly slowly. He's afraid of change and that is making problems.

Even the Witch of Izalith screwed things up monumentally; by trying to re-create the First Flame, she got turned into a bug/Bed Of Chaos which is the source of all demons.

And just because the Age of Fire is going, doesn't mean every flame is going to be snuffed out. It will simply change.

In my opinion, we humans can't really screw things up as bad as the previous Lords. They need to let go of the Age of Fire and bring on the new Age.

I don't really see why you brought up the point about humans. Yes, undeath is a human condition (seemingly). I don't really know what that has to do with it.

Yes, the Witch reached too far and messed up. Experimenting with the soul of the world is dangerous, very much so. Was Gwyn foolish to throw himself at the flame to try to build it back up?

When you look at it in that way, yes. But letting the flame die is also risky, as you are fundamentally changing the world to a way it has never been before, like blowing up the sun.

The flame created Life, Light, Heat, and their opposites. And yeah, big deal for that. Cook a steak and it will stay cooked, even without the fire. But the intro goes out of it's way to link two things with the fading of the flame: endless nights and the undead curse.

The undead curse is the cycle of life and death being broken. Humanity can't die, but they likely can't reproduce as undead. But we also have a fair bit of evidence that the cycle of day-night has been broken:

A. The intro basically says so.

B. Gwyndolin felt the need to create an illusion of the sun in Anor Londo. Why would he do so if the sun was continuing as normal?

C. Solaire came to Lordran to "seek his sun;" He's obsessed with the idea, like a boy who grew up to stories of the sun and it's warm rays, but never got to actually see it. (Also explains his "time is distorted theory" if he lived before the sun went wonky. 24 hour daytime? Madness!)

So light and life are breaking down. We also have the estus flasks, or liquid "heat," which sustains the undead, only able to be filled at a bonfire. That doesn't seem like very strong evidence that Lordran is in the middle of the Bahamas; makes it seem pretty cold to me.

Bring a heater into a room and notice it gets warmer. Move it away and notice it starts to get colder. You would never leap to the conclusion that smashing it would get rid of coldness.

It's the same thing with the flame and undeath. The flame created Life and Death (heat). The flame starts to die (moving it away), and that cycle starts to stop (getting colder). How does it make sense that putting the flame out would end the undead curse?

I literally don't know. It completely baffles me as to why anyone would pull for the Dark Lord ending in light of this evidence, as it seems so simple to me.

Shkar wrote:Now for the post I was going to post last night before my internet died:

ExplodingPenguin wrote:

They need to stop trying to prevent the Age of Dark/Man from happening. It's just causing problems.

The Undead is a purely human trait, no one else is afflicted by it. It's one of reasons why Undead can regain their normal flesh via humanity. The Pygmy, who's been confirmed as humanities ancestor, found the Dark Soul; "It found the Lord Soul and humanity is like a fragment of it. Kinda like an ancestor, so the descendants have a part of that soul."
So being Undead is something only humans can be afflicted by and only certain humans catch it, hence why some get the Darksign and others don't. It's like a trait, so to speak.

Gwyn is causing problems by trying to prolonging the Age of Fire; instead of just dying, it's dying incredibly slowly. He's afraid of change and that is making problems.

Even the Witch of Izalith screwed things up monumentally; by trying to re-create the First Flame, she got turned into a bug/Bed Of Chaos which is the source of all demons.

And just because the Age of Fire is going, doesn't mean every flame is going to be snuffed out. It will simply change.

In my opinion, we humans can't really screw things up as bad as the previous Lords. They need to let go of the Age of Fire and bring on the new Age.

I don't really see why you brought up the point about humans. Yes, undeath is a human condition (seemingly). I don't really know what that has to do with it.

Yes, the Witch reached too far and messed up. Experimenting with the soul of the world is dangerous, very much so. Was Gwyn foolish to throw himself at the flame to try to build it back up?

When you look at it in that way, yes. But letting the flame die is also risky, as you are fundamentally changing the world to a way it has never been before, like blowing up the sun.

The flame created Life, Light, Heat, and their opposites. And yeah, big deal for that. Cook a steak and it will stay cooked, even without the fire. But the intro goes out of it's way to link two things with the fading of the flame: endless nights and the undead curse.

The undead curse is the cycle of life and death being broken. Humanity can't die, but they likely can't reproduce as undead. But we also have a fair bit of evidence that the cycle of day-night has been broken:

A. The intro basically says so.

B. Gwyndolin felt the need to create an illusion of the sun in Anor Londo. Why would he do so if the sun was continuing as normal?

C. Solaire came to Lordran to "seek his sun;" He's obsessed with the idea, like a boy who grew up to stories of the sun and it's warm rays, but never got to actually see it. (Also explains his "time is distorted theory" if he lived before the sun went wonky. 24 hour daytime? Madness!)

So light and life are breaking down. We also have the estus flasks, or liquid "heat," which sustains the undead, only able to be filled at a bonfire. That doesn't seem like very strong evidence that Lordran is in the middle of the Bahamas; makes it seem pretty cold to me.

Bring a heater into a room and notice it gets warmer. Move it away and notice it starts to get colder. You would never leap to the conclusion that smashing it would get rid of coldness.

It's the same thing with the flame and undeath. The flame created Life and Death (heat). The flame starts to die (moving it away), and that cycle starts to stop (getting colder). How does it make sense that putting the flame out would end the undead curse?

I literally don't know. It completely baffles me as to why anyone would pull for the Dark Lord ending in light of this evidence, as it seems so simple to me.

The Lords also fundamentally changed the world by attacking the dragons; for all they knew, they could have burnt the world to ash with fire, but it was a risk they were willing to take.

A. I don't know what you are referring to in the intro.

B. Gwyndolin adores the Sun; it would make sense he would cling to what is familiar, especially if he was all on his own in Londo, hence the Gwynevere illusion as well. It seems that family have an extreme problem with change. But we get sunny weather in Undead Burg, it's nighttime in Darkroot forest, we have a snowy mountain in a painting, so I think the whole night/day thing in Lordran is strange as it is.

C. Brolaire is just kinda weird as it is, so I'm not really going to put a lot of stock in his personal quest for a sun; we have met a lot of NPC's who go mad/have weird hobbies.
The Age of Man hasn't started- for all we know all the crap happening around Lordran is due to the death throes of the Age of Fire.

It's obvious nothing good is happening by prolonging the Age; it's better to just take a leap and get to the next Age, to see what changes and how we can make things better. As it is, everything is either stagnant, or dying slower.

Your wording is just about perfect. Everything seems to be caused by the death throes of the flame. But as I said before, if having an object causes a change and removing most of that object removes most of that change as well, then it doesn't make sense that removing the rest of it would bring the change back.

We keep talking about the undead curse, so I'll put it in those terms. It is plausible that stocking the flame would remove the undead curse, much like how the light pushes away the dark. But there is no reason to suspect killing the flame would end the curse.

"We keep talking about the undead curse, so I'll put it in those terms. It is plausible that stocking the flame would remove the undead curse, much like how the light pushes away the dark. But there is no reason to suspect killing the flame would end the curse."

But if the Undead curse was a result of the Disparity created by the flame, and furthered by pushing the flame to keep burning, it's reasonable to believe that removing the flame would prevent any further undead.

At least, that's how I'm looking at it. It's pretty clear to me that neither of us are going to change our opinions, which is fine with me. This is all speculation anyway. :3

Given: The Undead curse is a symptom of the Flame fading.

Given: The First Flame initiated disparity. Heat/cold, life/death, light/dark. We would not have disparity without the First Flame.

Given: The curse serves to make some humans Undead. An Undead is a creature that is, in a sense, neither living nor dead.

Conclusion A: The Undead curse represents a breakdown of the barrier between life and death. It marks the beginning of the end of the disparity that the First Flame created.

Conclusion B: Without the Flame, this disparity would vanish completely. Nothing would be living or dead any longer.


Oh, and stop believing everything Kaapmt tells you. The Age of Dark is not the Age of Man just because Kaathe said so.

1st:, We don't have proof that the chosen undead died when he linked the flame. Gwyn linked it before and survived.

Soul of Gwyn, the Lord of Sunlight
and Cinder, who linked the First Flame.



Lord Gwyn bequeathed most of his power to the
Gods, and burned as cinder for the First
Flame, but even so, Lord Gwyn's soul
is a powerful thing indeed.

Also, It seems the gods did not start with with their souls.

Then, from the Dark, They came
And found the Souls of Lords within the flame.



Nito, the first of the dead
The Witch of Izalith, and her daughters of chaos
Gwyn, the Lord of Sunlight, and his faithful knights
And the furtive pygmy, so easily forgotten

Therefore the Pygmy, ancester of humans, has the same origions as the gods. However, he wanted the Dark to remain, even though the other gods wanted to create an Age of Fire.

After the advent of fire, the ancient lords found the three souls.
But your progenitor found a fourth, unique soul.
The Dark Soul.
Your ancestor claimed the Dark Soul and waited for Fire to subside.
And soon, the flames did fade, and only Dark remained.
Thus began the age of men, the Age of Dark.

The Dark Soul found by the Pygmy is a Lord Soul, and it's similar to humanity.

The Darkwraiths, incited by Kaathe, use the
power of the dark soul to absorb humanity, an
art shared by this weapon

The gods wanted the Dark and Humanity gone.

Lord Gwyn trembled at the Dark.
Clinging to his Age of Fire, and in dire fear of humans

What is the Dark? I think it's the Abyss. One of his knights went to the Abyss. It could've been because he was ordered to go there.

One of the special rings granted to the four knights of Gwyn.
The wolf ring belongs to Artorias the Abysswalker.

The thing in the Abyss is Manus. He is guarded by humanities, and his dark magic is described as being similar to humanity.

In contrast to standard soul sorceries,
Abyss sorceries are weighty and inflict
physical damage. Perhaps a human soul is
closer to matter in its humanity.

Sorcery of Manus, Father of the Abyss.
Grant a fleeting will to the Dark of humanity, and volley the result.

Also, his soul is described as humanity.

Soul of Manus, Father of the Abyss.
This extraordinary soul is a viscous,
lukewarm lump of gentle humanity.



Ancient Manus was clearly once human.
But he became the Father of the Abyss
after his humanity went wild, eternally
seeking his precious broken pendant.

Manus is the Pygmy. The Pygmy is the monster that almost wiped Oolacile off the map.
Gwyn is just trying to save Lordran from the Abyss by preserving the Age of Fire.

Chosen Undead. Your fate is… to succeed the Great Lord Gwyn.
So that you may link the Fire, cast away the Dark, and undo the curse of the Undead

Also, the undead were caused by the flame fading, so I think rekindling it would fix the problem.

Even now, there are only embers, and man sees not light, but only endless nights
And amongst the living are seen, carriers of the accursed Darksign.

Where did all this support come from suddenly? Typically I'm the only one debating the "Fire good" side. Are my allies starting to come out of the woodwork, or have I converted some people?

prophetteonit wrote:"We keep talking about the undead curse, so I'll put it in those terms. It is plausible that stocking the flame would remove the undead curse, much like how the light pushes away the dark. But there is no reason to suspect killing the flame would end the curse."

But if the Undead curse was a result of the Disparity created by the flame, and furthered by pushing the flame to keep burning, it's reasonable to believe that removing the flame would prevent any further undead.

At least, that's how I'm looking at it. It's pretty clear to me that neither of us are going to change our opinions, which is fine with me. This is all speculation anyway. :3

IF that is true, then yes, you are right. But the evidence doesn't support that. The intro links the appearance of the dark sign to the fading of the flame (though even I admit the wording is done weakly), and Anastacia claims that linking the flame will end the curse. Granted, she's a human, but the firekeepers seem to have an incredible link with their bonfires.

Which, now that I think about it in a specific way, paints a mental image to me of dark wraiths being almost ungrateful (jokingly, of course). Not a single person played through the game the first time without dying; if you claim to, I don't believe you; so story-wise, every person only got to the end because of the flame.

And they want to kill that flame, that got them there in the first place.

DE5PA1R wrote:Given: The Undead curse is a symptom of the Flame fading.

Given:
The First Flame initiated disparity. Heat/cold, life/death, light/dark.
We would not have disparity without the First Flame.

Given: The curse serves to make some humans Undead. An Undead is a creature that is, in a sense, neither living nor dead.

Conclusion
A: The Undead curse represents a breakdown of the barrier between life
and death. It marks the beginning of the end of the disparity that the
First Flame created.

Conclusion B: Without the Flame, this disparity would vanish completely. Nothing would be living or dead any longer.


Oh, and stop believing everything Kaapmt tells you. The Age of Dark is not the Age of Man just because Kaathe said so.

The Dragons were Everlasting; but just because they couldn't die in normal means doesn't mean death didn't exist in that Age. They even have still-living corpses that litter Lordran, yet this isn't causing a calamity. And why would that be a hassle, having a blurred line of living/dead? We already have a living Gravelord, living undead Dragons, the line is already plenty blurred.

I'm a lot more inclined to believe Kaathe than I am to believe that liar Frampt. And they aren't the same serpent; you see that in the Dark Lord end.

@Reece
Gwyn isn't human, he's the nephew to Allfather Loyd, who is basically the God in Dark Souls, hence why he is 'adequate' kindling for the dying Flame. For all we know, the Chosen Undead is only a source that works for a week, since they are merely human, not god.

It is never stated that Manus is in fact the Pygmy; there are some vague references but nothing concrete. For all we know, he is the Pinwheel to the Pygmy and simply stole some of the Pygmy's power/abilities like Pinwheel did to Nito. His soul is as saying "Once human." The Pygmy is the ancestor of ALL humans, he isn't a normal human, he's the patriarch of the human race.

Writing human over and over has made it look like I'm spelling it wrong...hmmm.

Yet perhaps

And Anastacia had her tongue cut out so she won't say a god's name in vain. I'm not putting much stock in what she claims, since linking the Fire doesn't halt the Undead, since even though Gwyn went and burned, it was still occurring.

We don't know if all fire get's extinguished in the Age of Dark; it could just be rare to find- there is even a bonfire in the Abyss, so obviously fire is kinda resilient. There was also fire in the Age of Ancients as well; we just had to find it first. And yes, if I see someone who has actually done Dark Souls without dying I will eat my chihuahua.

ExplodingPenguin wrote:

The Dragons were Everlasting; but just because they couldn't die in normal means doesn't mean death didn't exist in that Age. They even have still-living corpses that litter Lordran, yet this isn't causing a calamity. And why would that be a hassle, having a blurred line of living/dead? We already have a living Gravelord, living undead Dragons, the line is already plenty blurred.

I'm a lot more inclined to believe Kaathe than I am to believe that liar Frampt. And they aren't the same serpent; you see that in the Dark Lord end.

@Reece
Gwyn isn't human, he's the nephew to Allfather Loyd, who is basically the God in Dark Souls, hence why he is 'adequate' kindling for the dying Flame. For all we know, the Chosen Undead is only a source that works for a week, since they are merely human, not god.

It is never stated that Manus is in fact the Pygmy; there are some vague references but nothing concrete. For all we know, he is the Pinwheel to the Pygmy and simply stole some of the Pygmy's power/abilities like Pinwheel did to Nito. His soul is as saying "Once human." The Pygmy is the ancestor of ALL humans, he isn't a normal human, he's the patriarch of the human race.

Writing human over and over has made it look like I'm spelling it wrong...hmmm.

Yet perhaps

And Anastacia had her tongue cut out so she won't say a god's name in vain. I'm not putting much stock in what she claims, since linking the Fire doesn't halt the Undead, since even though Gwyn went and burned, it was still occurring.

We don't know if all fire get's extinguished in the Age of Dark; it could just be rare to find- there is even a bonfire in the Abyss, so obviously fire is kinda resilient. There was also fire in the Age of Ancients as well; we just had to find it first. And yes, if I see someone who has actually done Dark Souls without dying I will eat my chihuahua.

The dragons CAN die. They are alive; the intro suggests that the dragons existed before the flame, but I have talked before about how the wording could be taken another way just as easily. But the undead aren't "walking corpses." They have died, so they arguably aren't alive, and they certainly seem to have an unnatural resillience that suggests they aren't. Yet their heart beats, they have to breath, and they can think; their vital functions are still working, so they aren't dead. Undead refers to the inability to truly die, not the ability to walk as a corpse.

We honestly don't know very much about Lloyd. His title is very impressive, certainly, but "Gravelord" sounds imposing as well. And we know that humanity works well as a fuel for the flame; you kindle the bonfires with it, and they are fueled by undead bones: likely with some lingering humanity attached. Whether that's just because they are fragments of a lord soul (albeit a negative one) or for some other reason, they burn well.

But here's where we get into unreliable commentary. Kaathe is a serpent, and there is every literary and literal reason why that should shed some doubt on their words; there is a reason that I never quote Frampt in my defense of the Light.

And just as unreliable is the Crestfallen Knight. Are there a few followers of the gods liable to cut someone's tongue out preemptively? Likely; there are people in real life who commit far worse in the name of religion. Are they the norm, with activities like that being common?

Probably not. People like to throw around accusations of the gods hating and fearing humans, but remember that Gwyn, the greatest and King of the gods, gave a portion of his very soul to four humans.

Who promptly betrayed him. Can you really fault them for having some fear of the humans who are so flighty?

Shkar wrote:

ExplodingPenguin wrote:

The Dragons were Everlasting; but just because they couldn't die in normal means doesn't mean death didn't exist in that Age. They even have still-living corpses that litter Lordran, yet this isn't causing a calamity. And why would that be a hassle, having a blurred line of living/dead? We already have a living Gravelord, living undead Dragons, the line is already plenty blurred.

I'm a lot more inclined to believe Kaathe than I am to believe that liar Frampt. And they aren't the same serpent; you see that in the Dark Lord end.

@Reece
Gwyn isn't human, he's the nephew to Allfather Loyd, who is basically the God in Dark Souls, hence why he is 'adequate' kindling for the dying Flame. For all we know, the Chosen Undead is only a source that works for a week, since they are merely human, not god.

It is never stated that Manus is in fact the Pygmy; there are some vague references but nothing concrete. For all we know, he is the Pinwheel to the Pygmy and simply stole some of the Pygmy's power/abilities like Pinwheel did to Nito. His soul is as saying "Once human." The Pygmy is the ancestor of ALL humans, he isn't a normal human, he's the patriarch of the human race.

Writing human over and over has made it look like I'm spelling it wrong...hmmm.

Yet perhaps

And Anastacia had her tongue cut out so she won't say a god's name in vain. I'm not putting much stock in what she claims, since linking the Fire doesn't halt the Undead, since even though Gwyn went and burned, it was still occurring.

We don't know if all fire get's extinguished in the Age of Dark; it could just be rare to find- there is even a bonfire in the Abyss, so obviously fire is kinda resilient. There was also fire in the Age of Ancients as well; we just had to find it first. And yes, if I see someone who has actually done Dark Souls without dying I will eat my chihuahua.

The dragons CAN die. They are alive; the intro suggests that the dragons existed before the flame, but I have talked before about how the wording could be taken another way just as easily. But the undead aren't "walking corpses." They have died, so they arguably aren't alive, and they certainly seem to have an unnatural resillience that suggests they aren't. Yet their heart beats, they have to breath, and they can think; their vital functions are still working, so they aren't dead. Undead refers to the inability to truly die, not the ability to walk as a corpse.

We honestly don't know very much about Lloyd. His title is very impressive, certainly, but "Gravelord" sounds imposing as well. And we know that humanity works well as a fuel for the flame; you kindle the bonfires with it, and they are fueled by undead bones: likely with some lingering humanity attached. Whether that's just because they are fragments of a lord soul (albeit a negative one) or for some other reason, they burn well.

But here's where we get into unreliable commentary. Kaathe is a serpent, and there is every literary and literal reason why that should shed some doubt on their words; there is a reason that I never quote Frampt in my defense of the Light.

And just as unreliable is the Crestfallen Knight. Are there a few followers of the gods liable to cut someone's tongue out preemptively? Likely; there are people in real life who commit far worse in the name of religion. Are they the norm, with activities like that being common?

Probably not. People like to throw around accusations of the gods hating and fearing humans, but remember that Gwyn, the greatest and King of the gods, gave a portion of his very soul to four humans.

Who promptly betrayed him. Can you really fault them for having some fear of the humans who are so flighty?

That's my point; they can die, despite being Everlasting. (From that title, I guess they don't die from old age- only a mortal death can kill them)

Yeah, Loyld doesn't really do much. But he actively encourages Undead hunting. Jerk.
Well, Nito was kickass- but he existed in an age where the dragons didn't die- hence him unleashed death and disease on them. Basically he made them killable by afflicting them with death. However that was his Golden Years- now death is part of nature, he was needed when Everlasting Dragons were exempt from the rule. Now death is normal and he is nearly useless in that aspect.

But Undead do die repeatedly until they finally go insane or, dare I say it, loose what remains of their humanity. (Spiritual I mean, not the actual stuff) they can be killed after they do that.

But she doesn't like talking due to being "impure". But the other Firekeepers don't have that problem, even the Fair Lady will speak regardless. It seems to me she was "broken" into her role and conditioned to be ashamed/afraid to speak.

Four humans? You mean the Kings? We don't know they are human though; they could be like Ornstein or Ciaran who aren't human but vaguely resemble them in terms of physical form.

Yet the gods abandoned us all when they fled Anor Londo- they simply buggered off when it got dark apart from lone Gwyndolin. Why should we trust them to take care of us when they are so useless at it?

ExplodingPenguin wrote:I'm a lot more inclined to believe Kaathe than I am to believe that liar Frampt. And they aren't the same serpent; you see that in the Dark Lord end.

Kaathe can't be trusted.

Long ago, the Four Kings were powerful men. Only, their hearts were weak.
When an evil serpent dangled the art of Lifedrain before them, they were unable to resist, and became pawns of evil.

He doesn't say which serpent is responsible, but Kaathe is the most logical choice. He's in the same area as the 4 kings, and he is the head of the Darkwraiths. He even offers us Lifedrain.

Believe it or not…
Oolacile has brought the Abyss upon itself.
Fooled by that toothy serpent, they upturned the grave of primeval man, and incited his ornery wrath.

I suspect thou hast taken a gander at it,
But the Dark of the Abyss, which swallowed poor Artorias, threatens to devour our entire land of Oolacile.
It seems that this dire fate is unavoidable.
But, seduced by a Dark serpent or no,
They awoke that thing themselves, and drove it mad.

We really don't know which serpent did this. It was probably Kaathe. He is one of the two serpents we talk to, and he destroyed New Londo.

ExplodingPenguin wrote:@Reece
It is never stated that Manus is in fact the Pygmy; there are some vague references but nothing concrete.

There is nothing concrete about anything in this game. Almost whole story is nothing but vague references.

ExplodingPenguin wrote:The Dragons were Everlasting; but just because they couldn't die in normal means doesn't mean death didn't exist in that Age. They even have still-living corpses that litter Lordran, yet this isn't causing a calamity. And why would that be a hassle, having a blurred line of living/dead? We already have a living Gravelord, living undead Dragons, the line is already plenty blurred.

Everyone going insane isn't a calamity?

I'm a lot more inclined to believe Kaathe than I am to believe that liar Frampt. And they aren't the same serpent; you see that in the Dark Lord end.

No. Nobody sees that in the Dark Lord ending, because it's not in the Dark Lord ending. Go look at the Caduceus Kite Shield design again and note that it's right next to Frampt.

DE5PA1R wrote:No. Nobody sees that in the Dark Lord ending, because it's not in the Dark Lord ending. Go look at the Caduceus Kite Shield design again and note that it's right next to Frampt.

That doesn't necessarily mean they're conjoined. It could just be there to tell the player that there's another choice. Considering one would be more likely to encounter the graveyard than the abyss early in the game, I'd be inclined to believe so.

And there's nothing in the item description. If it held that much significance, I would think that there would be more material there.

DE5PA1R wrote:

ExplodingPenguin wrote:The Dragons were Everlasting; but just because they couldn't die in normal means doesn't mean death didn't exist in that Age. They even have still-living corpses that litter Lordran, yet this isn't causing a calamity. And why would that be a hassle, having a blurred line of living/dead? We already have a living Gravelord, living undead Dragons, the line is already plenty blurred.

Everyone going insane isn't a calamity?

I'm a lot more inclined to believe Kaathe than I am to believe that liar Frampt. And they aren't the same serpent; you see that in the Dark Lord end.

No. Nobody sees that in the Dark Lord ending, because it's not in the Dark Lord ending. Go look at the Caduceus Kite Shield design again and note that it's right next to Frampt.

Nito is plenty sane and he's been dead for a really long time. For all we know the insanity is part of the Fire's death throes, it would change when we truely entre the age. As it is, Undead go insane even in the Age of Fire so that is meaningless.
|"Medium metal shield. Decorated by an ancient blue Caduceus. A standard, widely-used shield."
...how is that relevant? Because it has a design with serpents on it?

@Reece so the Kings got greedy and bit off more than they could choose and they paid for it. So Kaathe tempted them; he does the same for you but the Chosen Undead doesn't go loony like they did. But I could even say Kaathe did Lost Londo a favour, showing how weak their leaders really were. Kinda extreme but there you go.
Princess Dusk is a stupid moron and is responsible for the entire death of her people due to her freeing Manus. Maybe she did get tricked, but she still let him loose and the serpent didn't hold her down and force her to free Manus, he just tricked her stupidity into doing it. It's her damn fault, Artorias should have let her lie in the bed she made.
About as vague as those people claiming Solaire is the First Born.

ExplodingPenguin wrote:Nito is plenty sane and he's been dead for a really long time.

No reason to believe this.

For all we know the insanity is part of the Fire's death throes, it would change when we truely entre the age. As it is, Undead go insane even in the Age of Fire so that is meaningless.

Irrelevant. I'll ask it again: Isn't everyone going insane a calamity? (HINT: It's a rhetorical question. Obviously the answer is yes. No input necessary.)

|"Medium metal shield. Decorated by an ancient blue Caduceus. A standard, widely-used shield."
...how is that relevant? Because it has a design with serpents on it?

1. Wrong description. We're talking about the Caduceus Round Shield, not Kite.
2. The description isn't the important part. It's a combination of the design and the location.

ExplodingPenguin wrote:

DE5PA1R wrote:

ExplodingPenguin wrote:The Dragons were Everlasting; but just because they couldn't die in normal means doesn't mean death didn't exist in that Age. They even have still-living corpses that litter Lordran, yet this isn't causing a calamity. And why would that be a hassle, having a blurred line of living/dead? We already have a living Gravelord, living undead Dragons, the line is already plenty blurred.

Everyone going insane isn't a calamity?

I'm a lot more inclined to believe Kaathe than I am to believe that liar Frampt. And they aren't the same serpent; you see that in the Dark Lord end.

No. Nobody sees that in the Dark Lord ending, because it's not in the Dark Lord ending. Go look at the Caduceus Kite Shield design again and note that it's right next to Frampt.

Nito is plenty sane and he's been dead for a really long time. For all we know the insanity is part of the Fire's death throes, it would change when we truely entre the age. As it is, Undead go insane even in the Age of Fire so that is meaningless.
|"Medium metal shield. Decorated by an ancient blue Caduceus. A standard, widely-used shield."
...how is that relevant? Because it has a design with serpents on it?

@Reece so the Kings got greedy and bit off more than they could choose and they paid for it. So Kaathe tempted them; he does the same for you but the Chosen Undead doesn't go loony like they did. But I could even say Kaathe did Lost Londo a favour, showing how weak their leaders really were. Kinda extreme but there you go.
Princess Dusk is a stupid moron and is responsible for the entire death of her people due to her freeing Manus. Maybe she did get tricked, but she still let him loose and the serpent didn't hold her down and force her to free Manus, he just tricked her stupidity into doing it. It's her damn fault, Artorias should have let her lie in the bed she made.
About as vague as those people claiming Solaire is the First Born.

The Caduceus is said to be important because it shows a double-headed serpent. That is to say, two-headed like the main character from Catdog.

Why would the hollowing be related to the Age of Fire? The undead curse as a whole only happens as the world approaches the Age of Darkness, so why would the insanity specifically be linked to the Age of Fire? What exactly are you trying to get across, that in the "Age of Man" people would still go undead, but just not go insane? (Didn't realize how aggressive that sounded; it wasn't my intent, I'm still just debating.)

For the second part, I literally find it incomprehensible that you are arguing the point you are. You admit that the actions of Oolacile were foolish and destructive, but Kaathe isn't to blame because he just tricked them into doing it? The story implies that the "tricking" was more of a tempting and less of "You'll die if you don't do it!" scenario, so I'll admit that they may not be blameless, but Kaathe still knowingly damned them to death. Same with New Londo; he knowingly seduced them into soul-sucking marauders, knowing they would likely be wiped out by Anor Londo.

Just because the character doesn't go insane doesn;t mean you can just write off the others as pathetic weaklings. Remember, not only is the protagonist literally the strongest person to walk the earth, but they are also lead by the player, who, for obvious reasons, can't go insane from something in-game.

ExplodingPenguin wrote:Princess Dusk is a stupid moron and is responsible for the entire death of her people due to her freeing Manus. Maybe she did get tricked, but she still let him loose and the serpent didn't hold her down and force her to free Manus, he just tricked her stupidity into doing it. It's her damn fault, Artorias should have let her lie in the bed she made.

Oops, I didn't notice this.

Frist, there's no reason at all to believe that Dusk was in any way responsible for Manus's awakening.

Second, you're basically arguing that it was wrong to save the residents of Oolacile because a few Oolacileans woke Manus up. That's ridiculous.

Third, you're assuming that those who awakened Manus had a reason to believe that it would be dangerous. He/She/They may have had no way to know what would happen.

Fourth, what Shkar said.

DE5PA1R wrote:

I'm a lot more inclined to believe Kaathe than I am to believe that liar Frampt. And they aren't the same serpent; you see that in the Dark Lord end.

No. Nobody sees that in the Dark Lord ending, because it's not in the Dark Lord ending. Go look at the Caduceus Kite Shield design again and note that it's right next to Frampt.

Both the Caduceus Kite and Caduceus Rond Shields have the description, "Decorated by an ancient blue Caduceus" A caduceus is "a short staff entwined by two serpents, sometimes surmounted by wings." It's a picture of two serpents, not one double - headed sepent. Also, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PJXPTedeZ_A

Shkar wrote:

ExplodingPenguin wrote:

DE5PA1R wrote:

ExplodingPenguin wrote:The Dragons were Everlasting; but just because they couldn't die in normal means doesn't mean death didn't exist in that Age. They even have still-living corpses that litter Lordran, yet this isn't causing a calamity. And why would that be a hassle, having a blurred line of living/dead? We already have a living Gravelord, living undead Dragons, the line is already plenty blurred.

Everyone going insane isn't a calamity?

I'm a lot more inclined to believe Kaathe than I am to believe that liar Frampt. And they aren't the same serpent; you see that in the Dark Lord end.

No. Nobody sees that in the Dark Lord ending, because it's not in the Dark Lord ending. Go look at the Caduceus Kite Shield design again and note that it's right next to Frampt.

Nito is plenty sane and he's been dead for a really long time. For all we know the insanity is part of the Fire's death throes, it would change when we truely entre the age. As it is, Undead go insane even in the Age of Fire so that is meaningless.
|"Medium metal shield. Decorated by an ancient blue Caduceus. A standard, widely-used shield."
...how is that relevant? Because it has a design with serpents on it?

@Reece so the Kings got greedy and bit off more than they could choose and they paid for it. So Kaathe tempted them; he does the same for you but the Chosen Undead doesn't go loony like they did. But I could even say Kaathe did Lost Londo a favour, showing how weak their leaders really were. Kinda extreme but there you go.
Princess Dusk is a stupid moron and is responsible for the entire death of her people due to her freeing Manus. Maybe she did get tricked, but she still let him loose and the serpent didn't hold her down and force her to free Manus, he just tricked her stupidity into doing it. It's her damn fault, Artorias should have let her lie in the bed she made.
About as vague as those people claiming Solaire is the First Born.

The Caduceus is said to be important because it shows a double-headed serpent. That is to say, two-headed like the main character from Catdog.

Why would the hollowing be related to the Age of Fire? The undead curse as a whole only happens as the world approaches the Age of Darkness, so why would the insanity specifically be linked to the Age of Fire? What exactly are you trying to get across, that in the "Age of Man" people would still go undead, but just not go insane? (Didn't realize how aggressive that sounded; it wasn't my intent, I'm still just debating.)

For the second part, I literally find it incomprehensible that you are arguing the point you are. You admit that the actions of Oolacile were foolish and destructive, but Kaathe isn't to blame because he just tricked them into doing it? The story implies that the "tricking" was more of a tempting and less of "You'll die if you don't do it!" scenario, so I'll admit that they may not be blameless, but Kaathe still knowingly damned them to death. Same with New Londo; he knowingly seduced them into soul-sucking marauders, knowing they would likely be wiped out by Anor Londo.

Just because the character doesn't go insane doesn;t mean you can just write off the others as pathetic weaklings. Remember, not only is the protagonist literally the strongest person to walk the earth, but they are also lead by the player, who, for obvious reasons, can't go insane from something in-game.

Oh man, I remember that show. But that's just a design; a two headed serpent is fairly common in our world, much less Lordran. Other shields have fancy designs, but they offer no lore insight in most cases, they are simply artfully designed.
I don't mind debating; Dark Souls has a lot of debatable aspects.
But as you said, Undead are occuring regardless of the Age remaining the Age of Fire. Time to move onto the next age to see if we can sort things out then, as it is we are just delaying the problem.
I never stated Kaathe tricked Dusk into waking up Manus; in my opinion it wasn't him, just another serpent. They seem to be a fairly cunning and capricious bunch. And no, I'm not sparing the blame from the serpent, but Dusk is ultimately the one who woke up Manus, not the serpent so it's mostly her fault.
Still, the Kings accepted. If they were any kind of competent leader and so trusted by Gwyn, they wouldn't have been easily seduce by Kaathe. I'm not saying he's utterly blameless in this scenario, but in the end the Kings accepted of their own free will.
There are other Undead who remain sane and coherent. I would assume the Kings, being as they are, would be able to fight it off. But then, we don't even know if they are humans or are like Ciaran or Ornstein.

DE5PA1R wrote:

ExplodingPenguin wrote:Princess Dusk is a stupid moron and is responsible for the entire death of her people due to her freeing Manus. Maybe she did get tricked, but she still let him loose and the serpent didn't hold her down and force her to free Manus, he just tricked her stupidity into doing it. It's her damn fault, Artorias should have let her lie in the bed she made.

Oops, I didn't notice this.

Frist, there's no reason at all to believe that Dusk was in any way responsible for Manus's awakening.

Second, you're basically arguing that it was wrong to save the residents of Oolacile because a few Oolacileans woke Manus up. That's ridiculous.

Third, you're assuming that those who awakened Manus had a reason to believe that it would be dangerous. He/She/They may have had no way to know what would happen.

Fourth, what Shkar said.

But she woke up Manus; due to a serpents prompting, she dug him up from under Ooclacile (by venturing into the abyss in the first place) and he was very angry when he was awoke which caused him to corrupt all the citizens of Oolacile.
Where did I state "Dusk is stupid so the entire country of Oolacile deserves to die due to her foolishness"? I'm saying it's her fault, not her peoples, since she woke up Manus.
I did not say that. I said it's Dusk's fault and she's responsible for all those deaths. She is. I'm not saying we shouldn't save the civilians and Artorias/Sif who were caught in the crossfire. Artorias was trying to save Dusk; which led to his corruption when Manus kicked his butt.
..Waking up some random sleeping thing because a creepy serpent told you to? Wouldn't that make some people say "No let him sleep" or think on it a bit more? As is, Dusk was stupid and reckless and everyone else paid for it.

Yeah I'ma just copy-paste:

First, there's no reason at all to believe that Dusk was in any way responsible for Manus's awakening.

ExplodingPenguin wrote:
Oh man, I remember that show. But that's just a design; a two headed serpent is fairly common in our world, much less Lordran. Other shields have fancy designs, but they offer no lore insight in most cases, they are simply artfully designed.
I don't mind debating; Dark Souls has a lot of debatable aspects.
But as you said, Undead are occuring regardless of the Age remaining the Age of Fire. Time to move onto the next age to see if we can sort things out then, as it is we are just delaying the problem.
I never stated Kaathe tricked Dusk into waking up Manus; in my opinion it wasn't him, just another serpent. They seem to be a fairly cunning and capricious bunch. And no, I'm not sparing the blame from the serpent, but Dusk is ultimately the one who woke up Manus, not the serpent so it's mostly her fault.
Still, the Kings accepted. If they were any kind of competent leader and so trusted by Gwyn, they wouldn't have been easily seduce by Kaathe. I'm not saying he's utterly blameless in this scenario, but in the end the Kings accepted of their own free will.
There are other Undead who remain sane and coherent. I would assume the Kings, being as they are, would be able to fight it off. But then, we don't even know if they are humans or are like Ciaran or Ornstein.

I'm sorry, but your claim that the majority of the blame rests on Dusk just doesn't hold water. First off, the idea of it just doesn't hold up. By the way you present your logic, at least, I can only assume that if someone were to hire an assassin, it is the assassin who would get the punishment. The serpent has just as much, if not more, blame than the people of Oolacile.

Which may not be all that much. Yes, it is made abundantly clear that the whoever awoke Manus had some indication that they shouldn't have, but we don't really know how they were tricked. Remember, this wasn't "walk into a cave and wake a guy up;" They opened his tomb, in essence "grave-robbing" Manus. For all we know, the serpent told them that Manu's pendant would give them the power to overthrow the gods. It certainly seems to be the Serpents standard method of converting followers. And we don't even know for a fact that Dusk was the one to do the act; the monster kidnapping the princess is too big of a trope for the possibility to be ruled out.

Shkar wrote:

ExplodingPenguin wrote:
Oh man, I remember that show. But that's just a design; a two headed serpent is fairly common in our world, much less Lordran. Other shields have fancy designs, but they offer no lore insight in most cases, they are simply artfully designed.
I don't mind debating; Dark Souls has a lot of debatable aspects.
But as you said, Undead are occuring regardless of the Age remaining the Age of Fire. Time to move onto the next age to see if we can sort things out then, as it is we are just delaying the problem.
I never stated Kaathe tricked Dusk into waking up Manus; in my opinion it wasn't him, just another serpent. They seem to be a fairly cunning and capricious bunch. And no, I'm not sparing the blame from the serpent, but Dusk is ultimately the one who woke up Manus, not the serpent so it's mostly her fault.
Still, the Kings accepted. If they were any kind of competent leader and so trusted by Gwyn, they wouldn't have been easily seduce by Kaathe. I'm not saying he's utterly blameless in this scenario, but in the end the Kings accepted of their own free will.
There are other Undead who remain sane and coherent. I would assume the Kings, being as they are, would be able to fight it off. But then, we don't even know if they are humans or are like Ciaran or Ornstein.

I'm sorry, but your claim that the majority of the blame rests on Dusk just doesn't hold water. First off, the idea of it just doesn't hold up. By the way you present your logic, at least, I can only assume that if someone were to hire an assassin, it is the assassin who would get the punishment. The serpent has just as much, if not more, blame than the people of Oolacile.

Which may not be all that much. Yes, it is made abundantly clear that the whoever awoke Manus had some indication that they shouldn't have, but we don't really know how they were tricked. Remember, this wasn't "walk into a cave and wake a guy up;" They opened his tomb, in essence "grave-robbing" Manus. For all we know, the serpent told them that Manu's pendant would give them the power to overthrow the gods. It certainly seems to be the Serpents standard method of converting followers. And we don't even know for a fact that Dusk was the one to do the act; the monster kidnapping the princess is too big of a trope for the possibility to be ruled out.

...well yeah, since the assassins is the one who actually killed the person. And I do not think the person who hired the assassin is blameless. I don't know how you got that from my comments since I stated the serpent isn't blameless yet he ultimately wasn't the one to wake Manus.
But the serpent didn't actually free Manus; Dusk was stupid enough to do so, and her stupidity resulted in Oolacile dying. It's mainly her fault. Yes, the serpent tempted her, but she could have easily told him to screw off or not go crawling around in Manus's tomb, pissing him off. He certainly wasn't happy when he found out his amulet was gone.

He was buried in a tomb. That's a pretty big indication to leave him alone. You would figure in Lordran people would understand that grave-robbing is a deadly pasttime. Dead people don't like being woken up.

Dusk is the Princess of Oolacile- she holds the power and no doubt gave permission to upend Manus's tomb or the serpent approached her directly since she could make it happen; after all, even is some renegades tried doing it on the sly, digging up under the city is far from subtle.

ExplodingPenguin wrote:

Shkar wrote:

ExplodingPenguin wrote:
Oh man, I remember that show. But that's just a design; a two headed serpent is fairly common in our world, much less Lordran. Other shields have fancy designs, but they offer no lore insight in most cases, they are simply artfully designed.
I don't mind debating; Dark Souls has a lot of debatable aspects.
But as you said, Undead are occuring regardless of the Age remaining the Age of Fire. Time to move onto the next age to see if we can sort things out then, as it is we are just delaying the problem.
I never stated Kaathe tricked Dusk into waking up Manus; in my opinion it wasn't him, just another serpent. They seem to be a fairly cunning and capricious bunch. And no, I'm not sparing the blame from the serpent, but Dusk is ultimately the one who woke up Manus, not the serpent so it's mostly her fault.
Still, the Kings accepted. If they were any kind of competent leader and so trusted by Gwyn, they wouldn't have been easily seduce by Kaathe. I'm not saying he's utterly blameless in this scenario, but in the end the Kings accepted of their own free will.
There are other Undead who remain sane and coherent. I would assume the Kings, being as they are, would be able to fight it off. But then, we don't even know if they are humans or are like Ciaran or Ornstein.

I'm sorry, but your claim that the majority of the blame rests on Dusk just doesn't hold water. First off, the idea of it just doesn't hold up. By the way you present your logic, at least, I can only assume that if someone were to hire an assassin, it is the assassin who would get the punishment. The serpent has just as much, if not more, blame than the people of Oolacile.

Which may not be all that much. Yes, it is made abundantly clear that the whoever awoke Manus had some indication that they shouldn't have, but we don't really know how they were tricked. Remember, this wasn't "walk into a cave and wake a guy up;" They opened his tomb, in essence "grave-robbing" Manus. For all we know, the serpent told them that Manu's pendant would give them the power to overthrow the gods. It certainly seems to be the Serpents standard method of converting followers. And we don't even know for a fact that Dusk was the one to do the act; the monster kidnapping the princess is too big of a trope for the possibility to be ruled out.

...well yeah, since the assassins is the one who actually killed the person. And I do not think the person who hired the assassin is blameless. I don't know how you got that from my comments since I stated the serpent isn't blameless yet he ultimately wasn't the one to wake Manus.
But the serpent didn't actually free Manus; Dusk was stupid enough to do so, and her stupidity resulted in Oolacile dying. It's mainly her fault. Yes, the serpent tempted her, but she could have easily told him to screw off or not go crawling around in Manus's tomb, pissing him off. He certainly wasn't happy when he found out his amulet was gone.

He was buried in a tomb. That's a pretty big indication to leave him alone. You would figure in Lordran people would understand that grave-robbing is a deadly pasttime. Dead people don't like being woken up.

Dusk is the Princess of Oolacile- she holds the power and no doubt gave permission to upend Manus's tomb or the serpent approached her directly since she could make it happen; after all, even is some renegades tried doing it on the sly, digging up under the city is far from subtle.

I agree that the people likely were aware that graverobbing isn't right, or in this case, smart. However, there is no indication of the undead at that time, so it's not even as if that would be an indication. Besides, phrase something right and you can get someone to do just about anything. That fact even applies to real life; confessions gained from police interrogations aren't automatic case enders. Why? There's a specific manner of going about an interview that can get a confession something around 80-90% of the time, even if the person didn't commit the crime.

As for the digging, the cave seems (mostly) natural to me. We really have no clue what the actual exchange between the Oolaciains and the Serpent was, nor do we know what came between that and us showing up. And too be honest, I think From intended that.