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    Comment on the Serious(_Much)ness of PvP

    RANT
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    Post by RANT Fri May 10, 2013 10:44 am

    some of you really missed the point imo, im pretty sure he was talking about the pointless threads about best weapons and stuff like that that leads to pointless arguments, meh.
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    Post by Jansports Fri May 10, 2013 12:49 pm

    RantFromRant wrote:some of you really missed the point imo, im pretty sure he was talking about the pointless threads about best weapons and stuff like that that leads to pointless arguments, meh.

    What makes a thread about what people think are the best weapons pointless?

    Is it not relevant to PvP?
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    Post by RANT Fri May 10, 2013 12:55 pm

    pointless because people never agree on something and 'best weapon' is an opinion and people are never gonna agree on one.
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    Post by Jansports Fri May 10, 2013 12:59 pm

    I ask you "Hey Rant what do you think the best weapon is, and why do you like it so much?"

    you answer.

    We never had to agree on anything. Noone agrees on the best way to build STR at SL100 either, but people don't throw fits about that.
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    Post by RANT Fri May 10, 2013 1:07 pm

    that's not what im talking about dude, jut look at all these threads that get locked because people just keep going back and forth about things that in the end doesn't matter since on one will ever change their mind, and a lot of the times they end with people fighting, meh, im just sick of them like serious said.
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    Post by AnCapaillMor Fri May 10, 2013 1:17 pm

    Oh the irony.
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    Post by Tolvo Fri May 10, 2013 1:42 pm

    Rants means the threads where people just say things as if they are objective, rather than subjective.
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    Post by skarekrow13 Fri May 10, 2013 1:58 pm

    I'd say there's a difference in approaches that makes things agreeable to discuss or not. Similar to Tolvo's statement I don't think anyone would have a problem with a thread following the format of "What you do think is best?" followed by a response and then "oh ok, I understand your position." Or even "I disagree with you but understand that we're discussing opinions here." I would even say debates are fine. Debates are drastically different than arguments.

    The problem threads creeping up recently are more along the lines of "This is my opinion but it's really not an opinion so don't bother talking to me about anything I don't agree with."

    It's the closed mind approach that's been a turn off lately in this section.

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    Post by Animaaal Fri May 10, 2013 2:43 pm

    There are things in this game that are not subjective, but rather made out to be. The most annoying thing I've heard is "skill trumps everything". While thats true, its misleading to people newer to the game.

    Also, people learn a lot from debates. Through arguing and explaining different points of view, opinions are obviously going to be intejected.

    I also dont like it when some things are being discussed and someone says something like, "well that wrong based on xyz" <--without putting "imo" after it, and people make it sound like you're saying "shut up you stupid noob".

    I also dislike it when a certain point of view is trying to be discussed and then someone inevitably says, "Well everything has a counter" and "something or other completely distracting from the premise of the conversation", then only to and try to get the conversation back on track to where it was intended to go, without ignoring what people are saying (waaaaaay more rude imo) then have people tell you that you are "forcing your opinion on people" or "you are saying you are right and they are stupid" or "You must be mentally dense" when all the while your opinions and objective of a certain thread were clearly outlined in the original post.

    Who cares though right?!?!?! The search for knowledge is eternal, and a difficult road.
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    Post by Forum Pirate Fri May 10, 2013 2:45 pm

    I don't have any fun if I'm not taking things seriously. That is my fun. Creating and executing new ways to win as often as possible.


    Also, creativity ( ie a build you won't meet 9000 copies of) is entirely possible, within a min/maxed framework designed to win. It tends to be subtle, I'll give you that, but its not always so.

    http://mmdks.com/29km

    I've lose with this build less than 20% of the time in randoms, and 35-40% of the time in organised duels, and I've never seen another build quite like it.

    There are many builds with similar stats, but they have very different focuses (seeong as my build was built to shut them down.)
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    Post by Serious_Much Sat May 11, 2013 7:06 am

    Glad some of the more senior posters came on board here. It really does just boil down to pointless threads being created, or to posts that reject everyone else's opinion for no true reason other than they're close minded, or arguing over nothing. (lets be honest here, if you're getting worked up over someone having a different opinion to you there's something wrong anyway)

    I'd rather nip it at the bud and avoid/get rid of the very close minded over competitive mind set that some people have, and regularly demonstrate it.. But frankly I guess we'll have to settle for everyone keeping objective, absolutist opinions to themselves for the sake of peace.
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    Post by nsane32 Sat May 11, 2013 7:55 am

    games are for fun and shouldn't be taken seriously but people do anyways well let them yell at each other about a virtual world
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    Post by Forum Pirate Sat May 11, 2013 3:12 pm

    nsane32 wrote:games are for fun and shouldn't be taken seriously but people do anyways well let them yell at each other about a virtual world
    As I said, taking things seriously is my fun. If the goal is to have fun, then my concept of fun demands I take it seriously.
    Serious_Much wrote:I'd rather nip it at the bud and avoid/get rid of the very close minded over competitive mind set that some people have, and regularly demonstrate it.. But frankly I guess we'll have to settle for everyone keeping objective, absolutist opinions to themselves for the sake of peace.
    Being competitive and being closed minded are different things. One can be both, but they are not inherently linked.
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    Post by Animaaal Sat May 11, 2013 4:03 pm

    Forum Pirate wrote:
    nsane32 wrote:games are for fun and shouldn't be taken seriously but people do anyways well let them yell at each other about a virtual world
    As I said, taking things seriously is my fun. If the goal is to have fun, then my concept of fun demands I take it seriously.
    Serious_Much wrote:I'd rather nip it at the bud and avoid/get rid of the very close minded over competitive mind set that some people have, and regularly demonstrate it.. But frankly I guess we'll have to settle for everyone keeping objective, absolutist opinions to themselves for the sake of peace.
    Being competitive and being closed minded are different things. One can be both, but they are not inherently linked.

    I support this message Bow
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    Post by SirArchmage Sat May 11, 2013 4:17 pm

    Animaaal wrote:
    Forum Pirate wrote:
    nsane32 wrote:games are for fun and shouldn't be taken seriously but people do anyways well let them yell at each other about a virtual world
    As I said, taking things seriously is my fun. If the goal is to have fun, then my concept of fun demands I take it seriously.
    Serious_Much wrote:I'd rather nip it at the bud and avoid/get rid of the very close minded over competitive mind set that some people have, and regularly demonstrate it.. But frankly I guess we'll have to settle for everyone keeping objective, absolutist opinions to themselves for the sake of peace.
    Being competitive and being closed minded are different things. One can be both, but they are not inherently linked.

    I support this message Bow
    Seconded.
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    Post by Forum Pirate Sat May 11, 2013 4:51 pm

    I'm also going to point out that being competitive isn't a bad thing. At all.

    It can be taken too far, but so can the "just have fun" attitude. When people go around condeming others for being the competitive, it is no less of an issue than when competitive people go around condemning people for not caring about wins and losses.

    Your desire to stop people being "overly competitive" (an ambiguious term, as there is no objective or expressed standard to determine when one is overly competitive) borders on close minded.
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    Post by Tolvo Sat May 11, 2013 4:52 pm

    Well I do think there is a point where one is overly competitive, but that's more so if their health is at risk. Like if you are spending so much time perfecting builds that you aren't eating put down the controller and grab a pop tart.
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    Post by Serious_Much Sat May 11, 2013 5:25 pm

    pirate, I guess you want more elaboration, which really wasn't my intention with my post but oh well:

    It should be fairly obvious that what I'm talking about isn't just being competitive. Everyone is competitive. It's when people take competitiveness too far that negative emotions, bad blood and arguments come to the fore. That is what i mean by overly competitive (which also should have been obvious if you weren't just trying to be awkward here)

    A guy who doesn't care about winning isn't going to argue about you winning using cheap tactics or anything, but the overly competitive guy will take it up, will make an issue out of it- which is a bad thing.

    I'm not condemning people for counting wins, just like you wont condemn people for not, thats fairly moot i feel

    I'm afraid I'm not being close minded. I fully accept competition, and I enjoy being a bit competitive here and there too. However, there's nothing good about being overly competitive, it starts arguments like the ones i condemned in the OP. there's a good side to being competitive and a bad side. I'm simply condemning the bad side here. Wanting to play and get some wins isn't wrong. Starting arguments over it is.

    I have to declare now I'm not gonna respond to anything else, I feel it's detracting from the message i wanted to share in the OP:

    Just chill out, and don't take it too far
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    Post by Animaaal Sat May 11, 2013 5:31 pm

    Serious_Much wrote:....However, there's nothing good about being overly competitive...

    Tell that to the contestants on Survivor, people realizing they just walked into a cannible camp, or all the great honest politicians nowadays....sheesh! :roll:

    Spoiler:
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    Post by Serious_Much Sat May 11, 2013 5:38 pm

    Animaaal wrote:
    Serious_Much wrote:....However, there's nothing good about being overly competitive...

    Tell that to the contestants on Survivor, people realizing they just walked into a cannible camp, or all the great honest politicians nowadays....sheesh! :roll:

    Spoiler:

    I shall break my silence just once to say- successful spoiler troll is successful
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    Post by Animaaal Sat May 11, 2013 5:43 pm

    Serious_Much wrote:...I shall break my silence just once to say- successful spoiler troll is successful...

    Oui...my cover is blown....

    Might as well reveal the plot:

    Spoiler:
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    Post by Forum Pirate Sun May 12, 2013 6:31 pm

    Serious_Much wrote:pirate, I guess you want more elaboration, which really wasn't my intention with my post but oh well:

    It should be fairly obvious that what I'm talking about isn't just being competitive. Everyone is competitive. It's when people take competitiveness too far that negative emotions, bad blood and arguments come to the fore. That is what i mean by overly competitive (which also should have been obvious if you weren't just trying to be awkward here)

    A guy who doesn't care about winning isn't going to argue about you winning using cheap tactics or anything, but the overly competitive guy will take it up, will make an issue out of it- which is a bad thing.

    I'm not condemning people for counting wins, just like you wont condemn people for not, thats fairly moot i feel

    I'm afraid I'm not being close minded. I fully accept competition, and I enjoy being a bit competitive here and there too. However, there's nothing good about being overly competitive, it starts arguments like the ones i condemned in the OP. there's a good side to being competitive and a bad side. I'm simply condemning the bad side here. Wanting to play and get some wins isn't wrong. Starting arguments over it is.

    I have to declare now I'm not gonna respond to anything else, I feel it's detracting from the message i wanted to share in the OP:

    Just chill out, and don't take it too far
    Someone could easily do the same thing when you say your favorite band is "_____" by procieding to tell you how and why "_______" sucks and nightwish is better.

    Thats not really being overly competitive, its a superiority complex or a sense of entitlement or the belief that ones perspective is absolute (in this case) ect. (there are any number of potential reasons.)

    Competition is merely the framework for these explinations, as if the point was competition the competitive person would argue any point the believed they had a decent argument against, just for the chance to win the arguement.

    While people do this, I don't see it here.
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    Post by Saturday-Saint Sun May 12, 2013 6:56 pm

    Well Pirate let's be fair here, Nightwish is pretty good.
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    Post by Forum Pirate Sun May 12, 2013 7:11 pm

    Course it is, thats why I mentioned it.

    My point being though, that what serious is condemning isn't actually someone being competitive, at least not that I've seen demonstrated here, but at least one of a number of other things, and its unfair to reference such occurances as "overly competitive" because its an ambiguious term, and stigmatises competitive people in general, due to the ambigious nature of the term.

    He also condemned the critisism of builds with "character" in favor of "clones" which is a stereotypically competitive thing to do, which also attaches his "overly competitive" lable to anyone who errs towards established methods of effective building/play in voicing critisism.

    Considering the established methods are the established methods because they have been proven to work well, consistently and under most conditions, critisism in favor of "clones" is entirely valid, from a competitive stand point, unless the player can give specific and detailed reasoning for unconventional builds. As this is the PVP forum, unless it is otherwise stated, it is fair to give advice from a pvp point of view.

    I see where he's coming from, and the things he's referenced as examples (eg absolutist opinions, asinine arguements {rather than intellectual debates} about wether or not wog is op, ect.) are irritating, but that is not, in itself competition, as it generally precludes the possibility of losing (a requirement for competition), as its a subjective issue (again, the ambiguios nature of the term over contributes to this) but, again, it is unfair (and generally incorrect) to call that "overly competitive."
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    Post by Serious_Much Sun May 12, 2013 8:25 pm

    Saturday-Saint wrote:Well Pirate let's be fair here, Nightwish is pretty good.

    Not much of a fan of their own compositions (I'm not much into symphonic metal really), but their covers of phantom of the opera and over the hills and far away are top notch.

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