Dark Lord Ending Conjecture

by δelta Fri Aug 09, 2013 12:44 am

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Post n°101

Re: Dark Lord Ending Conjecture

Post by δelta Fri Aug 09, 2013 12:44 am

Undiscovery wrote:Long text but I'll address what I can.

They are not assumptions, you are simply picking apart evidence with an underdeveloped view of the lore. Humans did not exist before the fire, pygmy's did, all were pygmy's who lived in the dark underground and there were dragons ontop. From the Dark they came and attained the power of Lords. BOTH the Pygmy and Gwyn bequeathed their souls, Gwyn to his family and select few to create the Gods, the pygmy was the progenitor of the human race, 'human' being nothing more than a name we call ourselves.. It is possible Quel bequeathed her soul, but She used most of hers on the BoC and Nito used his to administer the cycle of death to the world.

And I don't understand how grinding has anything to do with what I said on purpose. You are driven by something whether it be conceit, like stated by the Crestfallen Merchant, or any number of reasons you continue through dark souls.

Zero evidence that Manus came into contact with the Abyss

?? I have no idea where you're getting all your lore info or how you go about interpreting it but Manus is the FATHER of the abyss, it emanates FROM HIM. The Abyss is the power of the Dark Soul. Life drain is the attempt to reform as much of the Dark Soul as possible. Dark doesn't 'devour' itself, because it is nothingness.. that is the literal definition of Abyss. The whole point is to destroy everything so that none of it remains, 'dark' doesn't exist anymore at that point because there is no disparity to classify something as dark.

Perhaps a human soul is closer to matter in its humanity."--Dark Orb/Bead

i.e. physical matter as the first part of the full DB description would describe it.. Without human nature, the desire to 'own' something, we lack any desire of manifestation from our Souls PoV. Our Desires and purposes is what shapes the physical world, we're closer to physical matter in our humanity/human nature. Physical matter as in 'an object' Having no actual free will just the illusion of it.

I say reread my posts more carefully and do a bit more digging. I have viewed all the cut content I am not equating Man to Dark as much as I mean Humanity. As not all humans even became undead, only the more powerful Dark Soul shards.

However I agree humanity and the soul are different I think that it's a rhetorical question on the description. "The mysteries of souls, crystals, and the sorceries are deeply intertwined." --CSS. As the Everlasting Dragons and Pygmys did exist as the original Life of the Soul, and Dragons being the keepers of the primordial crystal.

On that note, Primordial is more than a suggestion it literally means the first of something, Kaathe says himself the pygmy is the progenitor of man, and Chester subsequently refers to Manus as Primordial man, The first of Man. What does not connect about that?

Also the firekeepers are not human, they are physical manifestations of the bonfires, the point of which is to surrogate humanty and dampen the influence of The Dark. The firekeeper soul is eternally gnawed on my surrogated humanities

Sorry for the nitpick response, it was kind of ill-considered. I'll hold up booze and 72 hours of sleep deprivation as the culprit big grin

Let's respond in Socratic fashion. Yes, I knew it was said so somewhere about the Firekeepers being manifestations, but I think that it refers to the Firekeeper Souls, not the Keepers themselves, in light of what the Crestfallen Warrior said about Anastacia, and also of what we know of the Darkmoon Knightess. Also, according to your logic, the White Lady (damn we need her name) would not exist before the Daughter of Chaos bonfire, when she was alive from around the time of the Advent.

Also, you are attaching overt importance to the Primordial Crystal - it was merely part of the dragons' hoard which Seath took. By the looks of it, the dragons did not bother with it much, and only Seath experimented with it, and souls, to attain pseudo-immortality. Again, the shape of the soul is related to the crystal, and to sorcery as you mentioned, but nothing is mentioned about humanity, which has its own combo - (humanity-chaos-dark).

On the topic of those cursed with the Darksign - to my knowledge, there is no proof that only the most powerful got cursed, the event seems random as hell - look at both undead merchants, all the undead warriors etc. If I drew a relation it would be of the afflicted being unable to fully integrate with society eg Laurentius, Undead Female Merchant etc. but I have nothing solid to back it up with.

Now, on the Pygmy... look at the literal meaning of the words "furtive Pygmy." Furtive means pseudo-hiding nearly all the time, and Pygmy is defined as - An individual of unusually small size and/or considered to be of little or no importance. Also, since it is shown that there was society before the advent of the Fire - hell, there were fire sorceries that had nothing to do with it, it is a fair bet to say that humans did have functioning realms before the Fire, and thus identifying the Pygmy as the original Life of the Soul is kind of... yeah.

But this contradicts directly with your interpretation (and the Gods', I believe) of the Dark Orb spell and humanity in general. Listen to the cut content again - Artorias disagrees with you, in believing that humans must be something more. Basically big theological battle going on here, and according to your interpretation, humanity is destined to implode in Dark Souls, which I disagree with big time. Call it a difference of opinion happy

About Manus... what I meant is that I hold (and there's plenty of evidence of it) that the New Londo and Oolacile Abyss are separate in both nature and location (duh). The Oolacile abyss is darkness with the intent to devour, and emanates from Manus, primordial man, who I hold to be /= furtive pygmy (the word ornery does not suit the pygmy, and other reasons besides). The Oolacile Abyss was generated when the citizens drove Manus' humanity mad... but I keep talking in circles, Straight to the point... I think that Dark=Nothingness is a false equivalency, and there is a difference between "Dark cast upon the world" and "nothing" (think Darkness as put forward in the Malazan books), and it especially contradicts the implied loop in Dark Souls (though that is just my theory).

Now on to the beginning of the post - I believe there is a difference between "use the power of", "broke into shards", and "the soul broke into a million pieces". Nito used the power of the Lord Soul to rule, as did the 4 Kings before their Fall to the Dark. The Witch used the power of her soul to create the Flame of Chaos, which devoured her and her daughters to create a hybrid amalgamation ie Bed of Chaos. The Lord Soul remained intact in BOTH cases. Gwyn broke his into pieces for others to use, and the Dark Soul broke into millions of pieces. Also there is no evidence that pygmy=human being - the furtive pygmy seems more a title (see definition above) though that is up to interpretation like much in Dark Souls.

I guess the point I am trying to make is that just as Dark Soul is not = Dark, the Flame and its souls are not = Fire - both existed before the Advent.

by Undiscovery Fri Aug 09, 2013 10:53 am

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Post n°102

Re: Dark Lord Ending Conjecture

Post by Undiscovery Fri Aug 09, 2013 10:53 am

Now I feel i'm being taken too literally.

They are called Pygmy's because they are the smallest race on the planet. This is relative terminology it doesn't necessarily say that little people were the first, and humans were distinct from them, human seems more of a denotion to those who own a Dark Soul, and that is the only real difference I see in a 'Pygmy' and a 'Human.'

Artorias follows Gwyn who has paraded his fear of man.. Artorias was raised around human prejudice, just because you have Dark within you does not mean you will do evil, this is a stereotype of humans to people like Artorias, Gough, Ciaran, and every other God/Godling/whatever term you want to you. Having Dark merely ensures that you will have a desire to 'own' something, a human nature, but as the pursuers explains, it can be out of love (a positive trait) just as well as any other purpose negative or otherwise, so it is not inherently evil, it is inherently destructive because it stops at nothing to achieve it's desire to own. (Own an object, own a destiny, own a power, own a choice, you name it.)

The primordial crystal was not just a 'thing' it was the only thing like it that granted immortal life at the keep of the Everlasting Dragons, sounds pretty damn important. Why would the gods not have an interest in such things? For whatever reason you decide, It is evident the Gods detenst sorceries and the dark, by association they also detest dragons, soul artes, and humans. Soul Trafficking is the literal currency in Lordran. But there is a lot of unseen history on these topic's. My point is the Primordial Crystal isn't a small ill-thought plot device for the dragons to have a toy.

And I find it fair to say the stronger Dark Souls became the undead because it is consistent with everyones fear of the Dark, fellow humans in the Way of White hunted the Undead and Locked them in Asylums, they who follows the Gods were taught by them to fear the Dark. It is called the 'Darksign' which is obviously a 'Sign to indicate the Dark.'

Also it's evident that being a Firekeeper is more of a punishment, and only a duty to an over-zealous God-follower like the Knightess. I'm not saying the White Witch Sister could not have existed the, but somehow her soul was transformed into a surrogate womb for Humanity, this probably has something to do with the Chaos Flame and/or Blightpus. Just like Anestacia, it is clear her condition is punishment, the Firekeeper soul description implies agony.

Chaos relates to humanity because they are both of a chaotic nature. This is meant to show a connection between the Human Condition and The Demons of Chaos. I.e. the more humanity/human nature you have the more chaotic you will become, and thus the more chaos power you shall retain. A similar trait is also described to the Demons of Demons Souls as well.

And furthermore, the the location of Oolacile and New Londo are directly adjacent, you can veiw the valley of drake bridge that connects them at the bottom of the DR Basin. New Londo Abyss is only a more developed abyss, as in Oolacile where we're seeing the start of its corruption and it literally turned the ground into nothingness after it turned it sludggy dark. The Abyss in New Londo being a more literal nothingness realm shows it's development and is consistent with the Four Kings timeline being coaxed into continuing the spread of the abyss. The fact that they were able to pick up Manus' torch tells me that the Abyss also emanated from them after they attained a large portion of the Dark Soul. They're lifedrain is proof they were granted Dark Souls. "Lifedrain uses the power of the dark soul to absorb humanity...The ancients, particularly, could sap the humanity of even a replete saint in the blink of an eye."-Dark Hand. It Also notes that the Ancients, who we know were the Everlasting Dragons, had the ability to lifedrain as well, this also shows that the Dark Soul existed before the Advent of Fire as well which lines up with my theory on disparity. It is called the Age of Dark only because it comes after disparity, meaning you have a comparison to call it dark. Whereas in the Age of Ancients this would be considered the Standard. It also shows how the Pygmys, who without humanity could not self-determinate, were oppressed by the Dragons, and why a large sum of them chose to rise to power and defeat the Dragons with the Lord Souls. What remains unclear is the Furtive Pygmy/Manus' motivations then possibly without the guidance of Kaathe, to go into hiding and split apart the Dark Soul. This is implying that he was trying to hide the Dark Soul itself rather than his successors.

The only assumptions I made were about Kaathe and Frampt specifically being referenced by the Serpent rings. As they are associated with the Serpents at least in general.

Everything I said about Manus is consistent and supported with all in-game dialogue/content.

by δelta Fri Aug 09, 2013 12:31 pm

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Post n°103

Re: Dark Lord Ending Conjecture

Post by δelta Fri Aug 09, 2013 12:31 pm

Undiscovery wrote:wall of text redacted for making my wall of text look better

And now it feels like we are talking past each other's heads lol

Let's take it blow by blow...

Firstly, who called them Pygmys? Nobody other than the intro, and it uses the singular form, imo as a sort of title. The pygmy is not mentioned at ANY time other than the intro - see Kaathe smoothly dodging with "your ancestor" giving leeway for frustration to lorefags. Go back 2000 years to Oolacile - everyone calls them humans there too. Also, the lords are very different in size and shape - Gwyn is 10 feet tall, the Witch is like 15 feet tall, though anatomically similar to humans, Nito is an amalgamation of skulls, and the Furtive Pygmy is standard human sized. Thus, I find little evidence for the "pygmys" being a singular race. And all the lords fall under the classification of "they" by the intro, but they are not even of the same species, imo.

You are correct about the primordial crystal, but I was speaking by its relative importance to the dragons. They are already everlasting - what need do they have of undeath? (though they seem to have conducted experiments on undeath late in the war, because Gwyn and his bolts.)

Concerning the stronger Dark Souls thing, I believe your "fear" argument to be strawman at best. Ask any Jew who was in Germany during WWII and suffered concentration camps... your argument breaks apart there.

Concerning firekeepers, if the dragon hatchling in Ash Lake is indeed one, as it seems... but that makes it even more confusing, so I won't go there.

About chaos and its connection to humanity - the flame of chaos literally granted life, and warped existing lifeforms to something else (see statues in Izalith). Same with humanity and its implicit connection to the soul - which is completely at odds with the "dark will devour" thing.

On that last thing - firstly, Ancients is NOT equal to dragons. I'd say 2000 years is enough to consider a Darkwraith ancient - and that is further compounded by Dark Mask description - Some say the skeletal mask of an ancient Darkwraith is partially fused with the flesh of its face..

Same goes for New Londo Abyss and Manus Abyss - one devours everything - land, water etc and warps beyond recognition, while the other one just.... sits, and can be sealed up by ONLY water, which by all logic does not trap it - it simply traps its agents... there is a big difference here. Also adjacent is not equal - are you suggesting that the Abyss simply got up and moved to New Londo, whose abyss logically spawned before Oolacile? (Artorias and his covenant)

Also the game clearly said that the Dark Soul was there along with the other souls at the Advent of Fire, NOT before.(intro) And the Everlasting dragons being able to use lifedrain would mean they were creatures of the dark, and possessed part of the dark soul... sorry, but that is ridiculous in that it crashes with the intro and the game.

Also, what implies that the "Pygmys" could not self-determinate before the fire? They had fire sorcery, clothes, civilization, spiders etc before the Advent, thus implying they also had civilization and society. And I'd say that the members of an intelligent civilization should be able to self-determinate.

One last thing - we all make assumptions here. The only reason that we are able to debate so freely is because Dark Souls overarching lore is ambiguous as hell. Thus, someone's theory may be consistent with the game and yet be plain wrong, as anyone who theorizes knows(and so do I, the hard way). You can also put down Stephen Hawking, Albert Einstein etc on the list of people who were proven wrong even when they thought evidence was on their side - both *** genii beyond their time. (and actually Einstein was proven wrong, and then later people found out that he was actually right - see cosmological constant)

by Undiscovery Fri Aug 09, 2013 1:22 pm

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Post n°104

Re: Dark Lord Ending Conjecture

Post by Undiscovery Fri Aug 09, 2013 1:22 pm

Yes, yes, yes. Both of our interpretations can be backed-by the game, I don't see them as a debate, it looks more like we're talking about the same things in a different context honestly. This is because all of the terms are relative to different times and locations in the game. The intro uses the Furtive Pygmy in a singular form, not Pygmy by itself as in out of the pygmy's he is the Furtive one. (Out-of-game example. Of the seven Dwarfs we have, Sneezy, Grumpy, etc.) The Furtive pygmy also resembled perfectly the 'they' that 'came from the dark, so to me, it's fair to say they only became giants after attaining such Lord Soul Power. Manus is as well giant denoting his larger Dark Soul ability. I make all these connections genuinely by what the game shows me, and I add-up details to deduce what I do.

I do follow your ancient argument though, but if you want to split-hair on terminology the dragons were still classified as ancients, and as it state 'the ancients' not a category of ancients i.e. you cant single out Darkwraiths.

I don't really get the WW2 reference. I still follow through, the Darksign brands the undead it is a 'sign of the dark.' This does not denote a 'random selection' as you have said, this denotes those who hold Dark would have became Undead, that is a more than fair and logical conclusion.

Firekeepers, you are correct, let's just drop them. They are just a headache.

I don't see how your chaos/humanity point countered mine? It created a bed of chaotic life, yes, and demons come from that chaotic bed. Humans are also a chaotic lifeform in their humanity. The showcase of these is the similarity Humans have to Demons in their nature. They don't have to be the same thing to resonate. Both Chaos and The Dark can corrupt.

As for the Abyss, i'm just saying the difference in locations in negligible when you consider how every location in Lordran is piled on top of one another. Four Kings were coaxed first, fine. That's not a arguement-breaking point, as I was using Manus relation to the Abyss to better describe the Four Kings. I'm just trying to show you the connection there is between The Abyss, The Dark Soul, and Humanity, and that the two abysses are not different in nature. If the game physics state that a flood of water can seal the abyss, then so-be-it. That is in-game physics that doesn't depend on our sense of logic. The New Londo Abyss has stopped it's growth because of the Seal, after you open the Seal and kill the Four Kings, it's spread stays haulted. It haulted in Oolacile after you killed Manus who it says the Abyss emanated from. The Four Kings are no different, after that long lifehunting it would make sense the Abyss could emanate from them as well, it is the influence of Dark in the world, after becoming a Dark Lord (mind you now hold ALL Lord Souls aswell as the Largest Dark Soul) it makes sense the Abyss will no doubt emanate from you as well. Or who knows? I'm just saying it's a fair connection.

End Case though. The game points you in all directions and the creator says himself the Lore is meant to be based more on the imagination of the player than the game. This was on purpose. By that logic, everyone's view of the lore is correct as long as it follows in-game dialogue/content. That's what theories are, they are consistent with what makes sense on given grounds. Dark Souls theories and interpretations can be completely different but if they are not inconsistent with what little the game gives us then they are not by any principle wrong.
In real-life polytheism, the Gods mythologies of cultures are metaphoric anyway, this story is really no different, a lot of things are synonymous and continually reworded and recontexted throughout.

So yeah it was all meant for subjective interpretation, I was only striving to describe a most objective interpretation as I could.

Random thing to note, the stairway into the Kiln resembles an anti-abyss, endless white instead of dark. But that's a dead-lead.

by δelta Fri Aug 09, 2013 2:32 pm

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Post n°105

Re: Dark Lord Ending Conjecture

Post by δelta Fri Aug 09, 2013 2:32 pm

Undiscovery wrote:redacted (again )

Yeah, the multiple viewpoints thing is a bit too obvious to rub in someone's face. I apologize. But keeping that in mind, let's do this again...

Undiscovery wrote:The Furtive pygmy also resembled perfectly the 'they' that 'came from the dark, so to me, it's fair to say they only became giants after attaining such Lord Soul Power.

The point I'm making is that the Lords are included in the "they". The Dark Soul was found along with the 3 Lord Souls in the Fire, thus this seems a logical assumption.

Undiscovery wrote:I don't really get the WW2 reference. I still follow through, the Darksign brands the undead it is a 'sign of the dark.' This does not denote a 'random selection' as you have said, this denotes those who hold Dark would have became Undead, that is a more than fair and logical conclusion.

WWII reference as in Nazis in concentration camps. And since humans obtained the Dark Soul, I hold that they all have a portion of the Dark Soul in them. And as a side note, the Age of Dark is far more complicated than just nothingness e la Abyss, just like humans themselves(thought this is probably an unnecessary point)

The chaos/humanity relation ties in to this - as in how humanity, a figment of the Dark Soul and as you argue, utter nothingness, have so much in common with an attempt to reproduce creation.

As for your abyss argument it breaks apart here - Manus was Father of the Oolacile Abyss - he spawned it. 4 Kings are in no way a similar equivalent to the New Londo Abyss - they die, nothing changes. Secondly, yes, the locations are piled on top of each other, but that does not make it any less relevant, especially since the intent is gameplay convenience.

Third, even if you open the floodgates, breaking the seal, still nothing changes. I mean, the main door is open, and the Darkwraiths and Kings stay inside and will do so for the entirety of the game. You are probably correct about the Kings emanating Abyss (I want dat deodorant), but the effect is induced, not produced as was the case for Manus.

And if you want more differences in the nature of the two abyss, compare their effects on people. 2000 year old darkwraiths? Function like a human(except the face) and remembers all their techniques. 6 month corrupted people(hyperbole)? Inhuman movements, multiple eyes, face inside a face etc.

Undiscovery wrote:So yeah it was all meant for subjective interpretation, I was only striving to describe a most objective interpretation as I could.

Lorefags exist for a reason. I personally debate Dark Souls lore because I find it fun and interesting. Praise the Sun

by Undiscovery Fri Aug 09, 2013 3:16 pm

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Post n°106

Re: Dark Lord Ending Conjecture

Post by Undiscovery Fri Aug 09, 2013 3:16 pm

I agree the Lords are included in the 'They'. My point was they were all the same 'pygmy-esque' race (or extremely similar to) until the Lord Souls differentiated them.

I get the Nazi's and the Way of White similar prejudice. I just didn't get your purpose for the reference. All humans can hold a Dark Soul, yes, but we do know that all humans didn't turn undead, The Way of White used the kindling of bonfires to purge humanity/Dark from people, undead bones as well as humanity is what literally fuels the bonfires. By all that I'm simply guessing that if someone held a negligible amount of the Dark Soul, they probably wouldn't go Undead before their fragment is simply reabsorbed into stronger host. Or likely easily purged.

I understand the Abysses are different, but that doesn't mean in nature. To restate my point, the New Londo Abyss is simply a more developed Abyss in my eyes, where as Manus' Abyss was only in it's infancy. But you're right there are a lot of discrepancies with the Abysses and why New Londo's is so inactive as well as chronological order on which one actually came first. I assume they Made New Londo inactive because well it's not usually long between the time of the seal break and the killing of the 4K, especially since you can just as well wait around the Royal wood for 100+ hours and nothing will happen with the Oolacile Abyss either, and just the same Oolacile will look the same before and after you defeat Manus, so you really can't use that as an example. They always say it's either spreading or haulting but the game never gives visual evidence of it actually in the process of spreading or haulting, you see my point?

Oolacile was corrupted the way it was because they were light-natured/peaceful culture. Just as Elizabeth explained that Artorias will be devoured by the Abyss, and not you, because he doesn't hold any dark. The Four Kings and the Darkwraiths weren't 'attacked' by the abyss to be corrupted by it in this way, they attained their dark from Kaathe as part of a covenant for Lifedrain power. Now that they own dark they wouldn't be corrupted by it the the same way as Oolacile, as they voluntarily corrupted themselves on their own terms. Like a Transient Curse to an Actual One, hah.

I don't mean Dark is nothingness, it's result (the Abyss) is nothingness. Dark corrosively eats away at everything, leaving nothingness behind. That is what I was trying to say. If there is nothing left to eat it will cease. The Serpents dwell in this nothingness, they love the ****, can't get enough. My original theory was getting at that after the Dark consumes everything, Serpents have their own clean slate. As beings of dark, Humans don't 'devour' ourselves per say, but with nothing left to devour, nothing to aspire to or for, we simply fade away, just like hollowing. Imagine a Black Holes function in an empty universe; there really wouldn't be one anymore.

They address you as Dark Lord out of prophetic reverence, not necessarily because you're the only calling the shots now. It's like in any given movie or cinematic of some lunatic summoning a great demon to do his bidding, they usually kiss-their-*** 'oh great powerful demon!! Hear ME!' but in the end he's still just a pawn to the summoner, a weapon to the wielder. Just because the serpents are using you doesn't mean they disrespect you in any sense, they speak to you like the great weapon you are.

by δelta Sat Aug 10, 2013 6:21 am

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Post n°107

Re: Dark Lord Ending Conjecture

Post by δelta Sat Aug 10, 2013 6:21 am

Undiscovery wrote:I agree the Lords are included in the 'They'. My point was they were all the same 'pygmy-esque' race (or extremely similar to) until the Lord Souls differentiated them.

Missed again there, man. Look at the Intro again - Nito was the First of the Dead before he became the Gravelord... same goes with the others. I'm holding Nito up as an example because he is the one who is obviously different physically.

Undiscovery wrote:All humans can hold a Dark Soul, yes, but we do know that all humans didn't turn undead,

Yes, we know that... but I hold that the undead turning process is random ,regardless of the "amount" of Dark Soul that one possesses. I brought up Nazis as a parallel because Jews in WWII were held up as the cause of all the problems plaguing Germany and were put in concentration camps in huge numbers, where they starved/died/got suffocated/manual labor etc. That, to me, sounds oddly similar to Undead Asylum, and especially how the Nazis ascribed threat to where there was none.

Also crazy theory time, but have you considered that the Dark Soul, over time, might have grown to the Abyss itself, with only minor parts of it breaking off? Would explain the differences between New Londo Abyss and the Oolacile one.

Undiscovery wrote:They always say it's either spreading or haulting but the game never gives visual evidence of it actually in the process of spreading or haulting, you see my point?

Yeah, got it. Hope they fix that in Dark Souls 2 happy

Undiscovery wrote:Oolacile was corrupted the way it was because they were light-natured/peaceful culture. Just as Elizabeth explained that Artorias will be devoured by the Abyss, and not you, because he doesn't hold any dark.

I think you are making a false equivalency here - firstly, you are equating dark to evil, and an (relative) abscence of dark to light-natured, and implied good. It's a bit more complex than that - especially since said peaceful culture got seduced by a Dark Serpent, woke up a guy from his tomb, and their first order of business was to torment him to madness.

Now listen to all the undead in the game telling their stories - they are also corrupted, especially the undead female merchant, but were they inherently bad? The only thing close to violent I can find is Laurentius saying that pyromancers meshed poorly with nature.

Undiscovery wrote:Now that they own dark they wouldn't be corrupted by it the the same way as Oolacile, as they voluntarily corrupted themselves on their own terms

Yes, exactly so. They did corrupt themselves out of their own free will. But the point I was trying to make is that even if the people of Oolacile had a choice (which is kind of unfeasible) they would change to the Bloated all the same, due to the inherent difference between the 2 Abyss.

One was there for who knows how long, and the other is the result of primordial man's ornery wrath, wrought with the explicit intent to destroy. Thus, this also ties into what I was saying - Dark, at its most basic, is an ABSCENCE of light, as Gwynevere (or her illusion) states. How one uses it is up to them (see lifedrain, see Kaathe dismissing everyone as failures, see Artorias, see Ciaran, see Gough etc)

Undiscovery wrote:As beings of dark, Humans don't 'devour' ourselves per say, but with nothing left to devour, nothing to aspire to or for, we simply fade away, just like hollowing.

Actually, when this happens, humans simply move to another area. What is emigration/immigration etc lol

Undiscovery wrote:Just because the serpents are using you doesn't mean they disrespect you in any sense, they speak to you like the great weapon you are.

Uh, duh

Keep your friends close, your enemies blah blah

why do i feel like this entire post is an inadequate description of my position sad

by Undiscovery Sat Aug 10, 2013 2:32 pm

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Post n°108

Re: Dark Lord Ending Conjecture

Post by Undiscovery Sat Aug 10, 2013 2:32 pm

I presume that the Death Soul is what made Nito the 'First of the Dead.' before the fire there wasn't death, correct? After he himself became the embodiment of death he administered it's cycle. There is nothing stating that the Lord Souls couldn't have been what transformed them into the beings they are, especially when they're shown as pygmy-esque before attaining them.

Yes, I agree the comparison of 'Nazi' and the 'Way of White' (Get it?) is spot on. I just don't get it being a counterpoint. There were members of the way of white who are not purged, that is why I assume some possessed too strong a Dark to do so. I just don't believe the Darksign was random, maybe the amount of dark one may have had via bloodlines and what not, which would make it appear random. But the Darksign signifies the Dark. It's in the name.

I've said before I am not equating Dark to Evil, I'm saying it's destructive whether good-intentioned or not. I mean 'Light-natured' by their magic, they didn't mess with soul sorceries or anything occult, just because they were tempted doesn't make them not kind/peaceful. I'm saying the difference in the Abysses is in that Oolacile was ATTACKED by the Abyss where as New Londo was given to the Abyss, there was no force. I wouldn't expect the 4K and Darkwraiths to corrupt to such an extent when they are on the Abysses Side, so to speak.

The Undead Merchents lunacy is a product of her Hollowing.
Pyromancy meshed poorly with society, it is sourced by nature. (I think you just made an honest mistake here.)

Yes Dark is the absence of light, this is why I say it existed before the Flame. It's the Flame of disparity, before everything was cold and dark, this is all anyone knew so it was just seen as normal. Flame gave the choice of light and warmth, the Lord Souls are representations of this disparity. And the Age of Dark will be now called Dark because it once had light to compare it to.
Without Light around, Dark has no identity, it's a two-sides-of-the-same-coin argument. Everything starts in darkness and ends in darkness, this is the all-repeating-rhetoric of any light/dark themed story.

And I'm talking once EVERYTHING is gone.. No place to immigrate, I'm not talking just shortly after only Dark remains I'm saying when All is the Abyss. Nothing at all to devour, no where to immigrate. The End.

Your clearly know your lore. We may see things at slightly different angles but really I think we've saying the same things in different contexts. I just don't think there was ever a place for 'man' to be on top in the world of Dark Souls, he was never meant to rule. From everything the story tells us (or just me I guess) shows that man is meant to be, by prophecy, a weapon, a pawn.

by δelta Sat Aug 10, 2013 3:01 pm

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Post n°109

Re: Dark Lord Ending Conjecture

Post by δelta Sat Aug 10, 2013 3:01 pm

Undiscovery wrote:I presume that the Death Soul is what made Nito the 'First of the Dead.'

Death Soul? Yes I know the intro states them in such a manner, but look at the Lord Souls carefully. They are literally identical - only difference is in their usage.

Undiscovery wrote: I just don't believe the Darksign was random, maybe the amount of dark one may have had via bloodlines and what not, which would make it appear random.

Then let's leave it at that. 100 bucks says Dark Souls 2 does not tackle this, because apparently Miyazaki(?) disliked the very concept of humanity.

Undiscovery wrote:I mean 'Light-natured' by their magic

Actually, the word "decadent" (or maybe frivolous) pops to mind when I think of Oolacile. Their sorceries and mentality also point in the same direction, and ties in with what Gough says (easily seduced and all that).

Undiscovery wrote:I'm saying the difference in the Abysses is in that Oolacile was ATTACKED by the Abyss where as New Londo was given to the Abyss, there was no force.

About New Londo, I think that only the Kings and their knights overdrew on Lifedrain - I mean, the gods did tolerate the Abyss a bit (Artorias and his covenant)... or maybe they sent him to his death against Manus because of it? Pure speculah. Thus, the lack of evacuation for the citizens of New Londo means either the gods have hair trigger mentaity toward Dark or they were waiting for New Londo to fall...

Undiscovery wrote:Pyromancy meshed poorly with society, it is sourced by nature. (I think you just made an honest mistake here.)

Damn... my bad. I didn't even see that I had typed in nature happy

Undiscovery wrote:Yes Dark is the absence of light, this is why I say it existed before the Flame.

My point is, since flame sorceries existed before the appearance of the first flame... how come the Advent of Fire... basically I can't reconcile these two. Also, dragons breathe fire, right?

Undiscovery wrote:And I'm talking once EVERYTHING is gone.. No place to immigrate, I'm not talking just shortly after only Dark remains I'm saying when All is the Abyss. Nothing at all to devour, no where to immigrate. The End.

What is time travel, space travel, parallel worlds etc lol

by Undiscovery Sat Aug 10, 2013 11:29 pm

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Post n°110

Re: Dark Lord Ending Conjecture

Post by Undiscovery Sat Aug 10, 2013 11:29 pm

Well if they could use the souls as pleased and they were all identical (in and out) it wouldn't merit Gwyn's Lord Soul/Light Soul or the Dark Soul to be the strongest ones. (or maybe the lore just rides-his-junk.) They really make it seem like The Lords were granted identities by the Lord Souls, it also fits why they are all harmoniously representing opposites, you'd think they'd get more creative if they could choose what abilities manifested from it. Again, I could be wrong

I could see what you mean about Oolacile being frivolous, but I see as a more innocent-curious-childlike mindset. Their magic is extremely gentle when compared to any others, and all the descriptions imply their 'playful' nature. A classic tale of "curiosity killed the cat."

I was not at all saying the entire New Londo drew Lifedrain, but it was under the 4K's rule, and like any corrupt ruler they sold-it-out for power. I believe they attacked New Londo, not the Abyss, per say. I don't think there was time to react to New Londo, the moment the 4K and Darkwraiths went rogue I imagine they were Lifedraining away. The Key description states; "Key to the floodgates of New Londo, which seal away the Four Kings who fell to Dark. The Sealers flooded New Londo to banish the Darkwraiths and the Four Kings. The agonizing decision was made with the realization that countless lives, and the robust culture of the city, would be lost. The victims now roam the ruins as ghosts." That implies the decision was forced, they had to contain it quickly.

You may find this interesting to note though. Ingward the Sealer, says the seal actually made the 4K dormant (for whatever reason). If the Abyss was in fact emanating from them, their dormant state could explain why it's not spreading.

Now here's where you reminded me that Dark Souls is convoluted as a mother-*****. About fire sorceries, dragons breathing fire all before it's advent. I honestly haven't a clue anymore. I was under the impression flame sorceries were after the advent but still long before the present, but who knows. May be the Everlasting Dragons didn't breathe fire, may be they just stood-around relentlessly like the Stone(d) Dragon. It does show them doing just that in the intro vid (pre-fire/pre-war). That really is a cop-out explanation, though, haha.

Moving on though, I do like your Artorias theory, however as a notorious hunter of the Dark for the Gods, I don't think they'd be upset at his covenant that allowed him to better do his job. It says the covenant was with the 'creatures of the abyss' no specifics, though I surely think it's referring to the serpents, as they seem to be the characters continuously selling the Abyss to suckers. Maybe the Gods did hate the serpents however, being primordial-imperfect-dragons and all. So who really knows.

Frampt says he was friends with Gwyn, but you notice he is also the only source that says he was Gwyn's ally. People like Seath and Havel, they're once-friendships are shown evident many times. But Frampts relationship with gwyn is only revealed by he himself, and we all know he's full of it.

by δelta Sun Aug 11, 2013 1:25 am

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Post n°111

Re: Dark Lord Ending Conjecture

Post by δelta Sun Aug 11, 2013 1:25 am

Undiscovery wrote:(or maybe the lore just rides-his-junk.)

And now you have given me nightmares. (about inept writing)

Undiscovery wrote:They really make it seem like The Lords were granted identities by the Lord Souls

Heh, I'd like this to be true, but Gwyn had his knights, and the Witch had fire sorceries, and Nito was a bunch of skeletons before they found the Lord Souls in the Fire. Actually, a possible solution to this would be that the humans didn't have civilization because they were not born yet, while the gods (their pre-Fire equivalent) did (Greek myth, anyone?)

Undiscovery wrote:I could see what you mean about Oolacile being frivolous, but I see as a more innocent-curious-childlike mindset.

Gough's words - "They awoke the thing themselves, and drove it mad." Implying they must take responsibility (freaking "sekinin kudasai") for their actions. How does someone hold a child responsible for starting a fire?

Undiscovery wrote:You may find this interesting to note though. Ingward the Sealer, says the seal actually made the 4K dormant (for whatever reason). If the Abyss was in fact emanating from them, their dormant state could explain why it's not spreading.

Yeah, I said this earlier, but here it sounds like that the seal only targets the Abyss' agents, NOT the Abyss itself, but not in a "cut off the head and the body will flounder" style, more along the lines of targeting the limbs.

Undiscovery wrote:Now here's where you reminded me that Dark Souls is convoluted as a mother-*****. About fire sorceries, dragons breathing fire all before it's advent. I honestly haven't a clue anymore. I was under the impression flame sorceries were after the advent but still long before the present, but who knows. May be the Everlasting Dragons didn't breathe fire, may be they just stood-around relentlessly like the Stone(d) Dragon. It does show them doing just that in the intro vid (pre-fire/pre-war). That really is a cop-out explanation, though, haha.

Hey, that stone dragon does not give a *** about someone as irrelevant as the player(in terms of size). Think "am-i-a-god" mentality, though I'd wager near-extinction of the species killed a lot of its morale (look at how it handled Havel). But yeah, you got my point.

Undiscovery wrote: I don't think they'd be upset at his covenant that allowed him to better do his job. It says the covenant was with the 'creatures of the abyss' no specifics, though I surely think it's referring to the serpents, as they seem to be the characters continuously selling the Abyss to suckers. Maybe the Gods did hate the serpents however, being primordial-imperfect-dragons and all. So who really knows.

Now, imagine if the serpents turn out to be one massive primordial hydra.

On topic, the part about the Gods hating the serpents... probably not true. I mean, Frampt was labeled a sage, after all. My view is that they - at least Frampt(s) - functioned as the left hand of whoever was in power (no, this is not a Spartacus reference).

Also, Artorias was part of the 4 Knights, and overall a white knight sort of persona, but the gods showed that they absolutely detested Dark in ANY form, even though they came from it(irony haha - or is it hypocrisy?). Thus I don't see setting him up as beyond them. But look at Oolacile... it looks like everything fell apart there for the Gods there- Gough and Ciaran ran, Artorias got corrupted, idealism split between the Knights, the gods failed in their "sheperding" etc etc. Your point about the Oolacile people being childish might fit in to the sheperding thing too (you can't want what you never had).

Undiscovery wrote:Frampt says he was friends with Gwyn, but you notice he is also the only source that says he was Gwyn's ally. People like Seath and Havel, they're once-friendships are shown evident many times. But Frampts relationship with gwyn is only revealed by he himself, and we all know he's full of it.

Again, Frampt is titled Sage by Oscar (cut content and storyline), so no, he's probably not self-titled. Also, the Oscar storyline is a great parallel to the chosen Undead's and shows that there can be multiple ones at the same time (so much for the fated bs) and further reinforces that the chosen undead is nothing special. Why did they cut it is anyone's guess - I mean, the directors make dumb decisions from time to time - just look at Lost Izalith, the epitome of trash level design. (btw, I think sen's funhouse ranks as best Dark Souls area)

by Undiscovery Sun Aug 11, 2013 2:27 am

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Post n°112

Re: Dark Lord Ending Conjecture

Post by Undiscovery Sun Aug 11, 2013 2:27 am

Just because Oscar calls him a sage doesn't imply anything, it's still his subjective point of veiw. If you choose to help frampt he also revers Kaathe. So it's a moot point.

You don't have to be a child to act like one. Gough wouldn't hold them responsible because they shouldn't be acting like children in the first place. But I'm sure it's what kept these humans docile for the gods. Which explains why everyone (the knights, gods, etc.) would have split mentalities about it.

Honestly, and I watched it again, the intro doesn't indicate that they had their powers before attaining the Souls. It shows them using the power they attained after the "they from the dark" rose to the fire before them.

Remember that Primordial means the first, this implies the serpents came before even the dragons as they are imperfect-dragons, it would make sense that they are the proto-type. That being said, instead of reiterating each other, let's discuss a topic we'd both beable to collaborate on.

The problem with every theory is that no one knows (and the game doesn't reveal) who or what created or caused the flame of disparity. They address it as if it came out of nowhere, but this is really the single-most important event in the lore. If the dragons did have lifedrain as well as the primordial crystal, this is something that is held over the pygmy's (or 'they' if you want) heads. If Dark existed first, they used lifedrain to keep it from the pygmy's and the dragons were immortal and owned a crystal that granted immortality, they didn't need it, so this implies they may have used it as a oppressive tool, as well. I don't believe Gwyn is bad, in his PoV, you are undoing everything he fought for; independence from the dragons/serpents/reptilians. But to the opposite extreme Man is still always a pawn, so we overthrow the Gods/Lords, as they did the Dragons, but not for us, for the Dragons grand-daddy's, so to speak.

Another good topic would be Kalameet, stated as the last of the ancient dragons. Titled as The one-eyed Black Dragon, and he is feared as if the most-powerful of them. He also appears in the Dks2 cinamatic trailer. (gasp!)

also interesting side-note, The Sanctuary Guardian, as referenced by it's soul, is a Chaos Demon who Dreaded the Abyss, almost implying he knew of it's arrival.

by δelta Sun Aug 11, 2013 2:31 pm

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Post n°113

Re: Dark Lord Ending Conjecture

Post by δelta Sun Aug 11, 2013 2:31 pm

Undiscovery wrote:You don't have to be a child to act like one. Gough wouldn't hold them responsible because they shouldn't be acting like children in the first place. But I'm sure it's what kept these humans docile for the gods. Which explains why everyone (the knights, gods, etc.) would have split mentalities about it.

Honestly, and I watched it again, the intro doesn't indicate that they had their powers before attaining the Souls. It shows them using the power they attained after the "they from the dark" rose to the fire before them.

Remember that Primordial means the first, this implies the serpents came before even the dragons as they are imperfect-dragons, it would make sense that they are the proto-type. That being said, instead of reiterating each other, let's discuss a topic we'd both be able to collaborate on.

Uh, Gough WAS holding them responsible. (unless you meant shouldn't, in which case sorry for reiterating)

And the rest can be chalked up to ambiguity, the breaker of minds big grin

Undiscovery wrote:The problem with every theory is that no one knows (and the game doesn't reveal) who or what created or caused the flame of disparity. They address it as if it came out of nowhere, but this is really the single-most important event in the lore. If the dragons did have lifedrain as well as the primordial crystal, this is something that is held over the pygmy's (or 'they' if you want) heads. If Dark existed first, they used lifedrain to keep it from the pygmy's and the dragons were immortal and owned a crystal that granted immortality, they didn't need it, so this implies they may have used it as a oppressive tool, as well. I don't believe Gwyn is bad, in his PoV, you are undoing everything he fought for; independence from the dragons/serpents/reptilians. But to the opposite extreme Man is still always a pawn, so we overthrow the Gods/Lords, as they did the Dragons, but not for us, for the Dragons grand-daddy's, so to speak.

My take on it - especially because of the game's strong connection to Demon's Souls is that the event is like a part of biblical creation - God said "be", and it was, and stuff.

Also about the dragons having lifedrain - wasn't it stated that disparity came with the First Flame? And also, that lifedrain is the art of using the power of the dark soul to drain humanity? If there was no humanity before the Dark Soul, and implicitly the First Flame, how could lifedrain exist/what would be the point of it existing? Also, Dark is not = Dark Soul, Dark=absence of light. (And apparently TRUE dark is brought about by the Dark Lord - see Dark Lord outro.)

Of course you are right about Gwyn, but I'd say that he wanted to preserve all that the Age of the Gods had wrought, rather than being afraid of the Dark, or turning this into a psuedo-control war.(you should watch the matrix movies, it has some stuff to say about the concept of control)

Also, I'm not sure about Man, specifically the Dark Lord being a pawn... but I should not go into that because that is, again, ambiguous.

On Kalameet - it was an ancient dragon. It was not everlasting. Anor Londo was afraid of it. Seems like firepower>defense lol

Crude jokes aside, Kalameet is dead, but his design has made it to DkS2, where we see a Kalameet-type dragon in the trailer (which one was it? Despair? can't remember the name). Combine that with all the talk about experimentation on dragons, and the weird lack of everlasting dragons around (unless you count concept art), until I get info, my official position is wait and see. (but damn, I really like the 3rd eye implementation - right up there with Dragon's Dogma and Witcher 2.)

What I find weird about Kalameet is - how the *** did he survive Seath? Unless he is so uber-powerful that Seath ran, even with the primordial crystal on his side. And the chosen undead killed him... damn. (I found the battle a breeze - used composite bow+large arrows+hawk ring)

One last thing... since the chosen undead never falls to madness, even when consumed by the Abyss (try jumping into it before obtaining Covenant of Artorias) no matter how many times it happens, does it mean that he/she is, like Seath, a true undead?

by Undiscovery Sun Aug 11, 2013 7:21 pm

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Post n°114

Re: Dark Lord Ending Conjecture

Post by Undiscovery Sun Aug 11, 2013 7:21 pm

Yeh I meant Gough would've held them responsible.

The Dark is used so interchangeably throughout the lore, I just get caught up in it. So who really knows if they had lifedrain or what purpose it'd really serve then. It's too murky a subject really. They game also likes to yank your chain, when I first beat it with the Light Ending I thought I was doing the right thing, I didn't know then that gwynevere was an illusion and all that jazz. So who really knows what they mean by 'true' dark, for all I know the games just trying to make me feel good about my decisions again.

Lores and mythologies are obviously meant as philosophical metaphors, so that's really how I apply it's lore as well. (What you said about creation and stuff.)

From Soft stories are all dark and twisted. In Demons Souls there's really no 'good ending' either. With as much of what they imply into the hopelessness of these scenarios, I don't believe for a second that Man, even as the Dark Lord, will ever see any prosperity at the top. That's just me though. The truth about mans predicament is always represented by the Crestfallen NPC's.

Kalameets a Bawss. (Sorry just had to express my adoration for this bad mofo) Yeah I know he's not an everlasting, but he is the last of the ancient dragons. I believe he is the only Dragon with his distinct appearance, by the way he's titled The One-eyed Black Dragon Kalameet. I know he's dead now, but there's alot pointing to Dks2 being a prequel. In either case that dragon in the cinematic trailer looks pretty much just like Kalameet, so I'm anxious to know what's up.

The Chosen Undead's madness is meant to be dependent on the player, this is why he never falls to madness or hollowing in-game. When a player ragequits the game because they lost all patience it represents the PC going hollow. I.e. your journey never sees an ending. Logan described Seaths 'undeadness', if you will, as being physically immortal. The Chosen Undead can still sustain wounds and die, he is just continuously reborn through the Darksign and bonfires. With the Crystal, Seath is invulnerable to any mortal blow.

Last edited by Undiscovery on Sun Aug 11, 2013 8:41 pm; edited 1 time in total

by δelta Sun Aug 11, 2013 7:45 pm

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Post n°115

Re: Dark Lord Ending Conjecture

Post by δelta Sun Aug 11, 2013 7:45 pm

Undiscovery wrote:The Dark is used so interchangeably throughout the lore, I just get caught up in it. So who really knows if they had lifedrain or what purpose it'd really serve then. It's too murky a subject really. They game also likes to yank your chain, when I first beat it with the Light Ending I thought I was doing the right thing, I didn't know then that gwynevere was an illusion and all that jazz. So who really knows what they mean by 'true' dark, for all I know the games just trying to make me feel good about my decisions again.

Heh, I picked up Silver Knight Shield on my first playthrough, and went like "wtf?" I was playing blind, with only dagger and hornet ring - didn't like shields, still don't, I just use Dark Hand now as a last resort thing.

Undiscovery wrote:From Soft stories are all dark and twisted. In Demons Souls there's really no 'good ending' either. With as much of what they imply into the hopelessness of these scenarios, I don't believe for a second that Man, even as the Dark Lord, will ever see any prosperity at the top. That's just me though. The truth about mans predicament is always represented by the Crestfallen NPC's.

But the old one does go back to sleep, the world is saved and the demons are gone, so it's more like the choices are either "more of the same" or "nonexistence"... basically what Old King Allant said (the slimeball). For me it isn't even a question... my mind is already made up on the topic.

Undiscovery wrote:Kalameets a Bawss. (Sorry just had to express my adoration for this bad mofo) Yeah I know he's not an everlasting, but he is the last of the ancient dragons. I believe he is the only Dragon with his distinct appearance, by the way he's titled The One-eyed Black Dragon Kalameet. I know he's dead now, but there's alot pointing to Dks2 being a prequel. In either case that dragon in the cinematic trailer looks pretty much just like Kalameet, so I'm anxious to know what's up.

I got said badass in 1 min 30 sec with a bow, mate. (first time I didn't know I had to visit gough, so I died horribly). And actually, look at the intro again - specifically the pile of corpses Seath is standing on. Same body structure, but we don't get a closeup of the heads, so I can't really say.

And the developer confirmed that Dks2 is a parallel world story, not a prequel. The storyline is the same as DkS1 as stated by the developers - guy wants to undo curse, goes on quest. But a lot of stuff has been thrown out - no humanity (implicit, no dark soul), return of grasses, the good animations of DkS1 etc. Btw if you're interested, take a look, this was at comicon https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=liEVgucjDIk and http://www.gamefaqs.com/boards/693331-dark-souls-ii/66818346 .

Undiscovery wrote:The Chosen Undead's madness is meant to be dependent on the player, this is why he never falls to madness or hollowing in-game. When a player ragequits the game because they lost all patients it represents the PC going hollow. I.e. your journey never sees an ending. Logan described Seaths 'undeadness', if you will, as being physically immortal. The Chosen Undead can still sustain wounds and die, he is just continuously reborn through the Darksign and bonfires. With the Crystal, Seath is invulnerable to any mortal blow.

Actually, I think it's more like - hey look, here's an interesting parallel! Plus Miyazaki is a master troll - he drew parallels betwen every single DkS player who speculated about the pendant, and Manus, the freaking Father of the Abyss http://www.forbes.com/sites/erikkain/2012/11/06/dark-souls-creator-reveals-the-true-power-of-the-pendant/

And yeah, I forgot to take the invincibility into account (really gotta get back to my DkS playthrough). Silly me happy

by Undiscovery Sun Aug 11, 2013 8:59 pm

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Post n°116

Re: Dark Lord Ending Conjecture

Post by Undiscovery Sun Aug 11, 2013 8:59 pm

The Old One goes back to sleep, like he did before, only to inevitably wake-up again. You become the new monumental for this purpose.
Just the same, you can light the flame only to have this same crap go down next millennium.

Haha, I mean his character is bawss. I can take him out fairly easy too, only I never use bows. Yeah, I was down there the first time too trying to grab treasure like a fool when kalameet came blazing overhead haha.

Miyazaki being a troll is exactly why it's dependent on the players sanity. It's the exact reason he included the Crestfallen NPC's. Who do they sound like to you? Every single person who's ever made a rage comment on behalf of dark souls. They continually remind you to quit and that you're a fool for thinking you're changing anything, and still as a lover of these games I'm always left asking at the end 'I did all that for what now?' It's the exact reason this topic is open.

Furthermore who's to say the Chosen isn't mad? Have you seen the things he's done? As Logan would put it you're a 'relatively sane one'. Relative to most everyone else you are sane, or so it appears until you kill someone like Ciaran so you can keep Artorias' Soul and Get her equips. Let's just say being the sanest one in Lordran is like being the cleanest turd.

by δelta Mon Aug 12, 2013 3:17 am

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Post n°117

Re: Dark Lord Ending Conjecture

Post by δelta Mon Aug 12, 2013 3:17 am

Undiscovery wrote:The Old One goes back to sleep, like he did before, only to inevitably wake-up again. You become the new monumental for this purpose.
Just the same, you can light the flame only to have this same crap go down next millennium.

Chalk that down to human nature - If humans are serious about not wanting nonexistence, the Old One will never have the amount of influence he had in Demons' Souls. Besides, what happens in the future is unpredictable, and not even your job to influence, because the game ends. How did Gandalf put it? "It is not our part to master all the tides of the world"(or something to that effect)

Undiscoveey wrote:Haha, I mean his character is bawss. I can take him out fairly easy too, only I never use bows. Yeah, I was down there the first time too trying to grab treasure like a fool when kalameet came blazing overhead haha.

I was worse... I ran all the way to the back of the map where he can't hit you, and I started sniping at him with dragonslayer+hawk ring. Took like 40 damage with each shot sad

Let's say Gough's a better shot than me. Now there is a guy who rolls in style... it's just sad that he's incredibly dumb in some cases.

Undiscovery wrote:Miyazaki being a troll is exactly why it's dependent on the players sanity. It's the exact reason he included the Crestfallen NPC's. Who do they sound like to you? Every single person who's ever made a rage comment on behalf of dark souls. They continually remind you to quit and that you're a fool for thinking you're changing anything, and still as a lover of these games I'm always left asking at the end 'I did all that for what now?' It's the exact reason this topic is open.

I can't really draw parallels between ragequitters and the crestfallen npcs because I don't really know anybody who ragequit over DkS. I mean, look at these guys - http://neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=541464&page=92 - Going strong there. I guess we all have weird mentalities not to quit at least once happy

Undiscovey wrote:Furthermore who's to say the Chosen isn't mad? Have you seen the things he's done? As Logan would put it you're a'relatively sane one'. Relative to most everyone else you are sane, or so it appears until you kill someone like Ciaran so you can keep Artorias' Soul and Get her equips. Let's just say being the sanest one in Lordran is like being the cleanest turd.

You can't really say that the chosen undead is mad because her/his actions are player defined - the person is a sort of blank slate. (I count 2 cutscenes where the chosen undead showed initiative - Sif and Dark Lord). It's like calling gamers insane.. it varies from person to person. (But you already called them turds, so what's one more step lol

)

by Undiscovery Mon Aug 12, 2013 1:13 pm

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Post n°118

Re: Dark Lord Ending Conjecture

Post by Undiscovery Mon Aug 12, 2013 1:13 pm

Well I know a few friends who got to play it before me and never finished it, they insisted I get it at first and its so awesome then it became the opposite. But I was a Demons Vet so I simply had to.

Ha I wasn't trying to say players are insane, but it's still a relative notion because they have the game to be insane in. The people who run around in the real world trying to steal humanity are usually labeled insane. Saving Sif is really the only good choice you can make though, you're always either just doing your job or you're being evil, i.e. you must end Sif anyway. (Sif is my next favorite, gigawolves FTW.) It's not like your exploring the world killing only what you want because you know it's right or wrong, the game presents a boss/enemy and you kill it whether its considered good (the DLC questline) or considered bad (Killing the Gods, being a darkwraith, etc.) or some weird mix of both. So I don't see this game as very choice-driven, with the exception of the ending, which isn't really a heavy choice since everything will eventually turn to dark anyway, I imagine they can only relight the flame smaller and weaker each time.

I just took note on how gargantuan the Flame of Disparity fully charged really is. It burns the entire Kiln. As before the discrete Anti-abyss area surrounding it is also peculiar to me.

I am also thinking that just because Gwyn relit the flame doesn't mean it may have been the best action for his cause. We see all of the Lords and Gods failing and falling on multiple occasions. And the Witch was unable to use her Lord Soul correctly either. Just the same I view the the relighting of the flame a travesty like the Bed of Chaos because it caused the Undead Curse, it's only glorified because the Great Gwyn, Lord of Sunlight did it, not the 'icky-pyromancer-godmother'. The Undead are not really much different than the demons as we were discussing the relation between humanity and chaos. Armies of knights could not contain the demons and armies of clerics could not contain the Undead. This kind of seems like the Lord Souls are simply too powerful to be focused by we-who-attained-them, the Dark Soul obviously being no different. So when our humanity inevitably goes wild mankind will not see salvation in the dark.

by δelta Mon Aug 12, 2013 2:00 pm

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Post n°119

Re: Dark Lord Ending Conjecture

Post by δelta Mon Aug 12, 2013 2:00 pm

Undiscovery wrote:Well I know a few friends who got to play it before me and never finished it, they insisted I get it at first and its so awesome then it became the opposite. But I was a Demons Vet so I simply had to.

The words running through my mind is 'wimp move". No offense to your friends, but apparently this game brings out the fear in people... what's odd is that any 90s game, hell, even PacMan is as difficult as Dark Souls, and people are just thrown off by old school difficulty. What does the dumbing down of games mean is something I don't want to think about. ( I had a LOT of fun with Pacman in arcades)

Undiscovery wrote:The people who run around in the real world trying to steal humanity are usually labeled insane

Actually, you are wrong about that - they are labelled dishonorable, according to the description of the Red Sign Soapstone ... "some darkwraiths resist their fall to dark and stick to the honorable path"...

Undiscovery wrote:you're always either just doing your job or you're being evil

I'd say - I have no inherent responsibility to complete the job happy

But seriously, the chosen undead's goal is the removal of his curse... and since that never happens. he's free to be human lol

Undiscovery wrote:So I don't see this game as very choice-driven, with the exception of the ending, which isn't really a heavy choice since everything will eventually turn to dark anyway, I imagine they can only relight the flame smaller and weaker each time.

My view on Dark Souls is that its story (what there is) is like an epilogue to a really big high fantasy novel. Everything has already happened, and the chosen undead is just the cherry on the cake (seriously, read/watch a Game of Thrones season finale, and you'll know what I mean)

And about the flame... the choice there is more along the lines of - ride the lightning, or buy some time? The flame is going out, there's no stopping it, so do you let it die, or sacrifice yourself for a little more time, hoping it will make a difference? The weird thing is, DkSII is probably going to show you that there was no difference (thing how choice driven games like Mass Effect treat really IMPORTANT CHOICES LOL)

Undiscovery wrote:I just took note on how gargantuan the Flame of Disparity fully charged really is. It burns the entire Kiln. As before the discrete Anti-abyss area surrounding it is also peculiar to me.

Almost as if the Abyss assaulted it, isn't it? And Gwyn relighted the flame just in the nick of time... But the part where I stumble is - was it a symbolic gesture, or is first=all flames?

Undiscovery wrote:This kind of seems like the Lord Souls are simply too powerful to be focused by we-who-attained-them, the Dark Soul obviously being no different. So when our humanity inevitably goes wild mankind will not see salvation in the dark.

First part I agree with, think Lord Souls=power, and power corrupts. The Dark Soul's power Lifedrain is the biggest example for this... I mean, the only human who has been able to handle it properly since the advent is the chosen undead ONLY. 4 Kings turned megalomaniacal, Manus went nuts etc etc long record of failure.

The second part however - let me put it this way... yes, man won't find salvation in the dark as in 'oh it's the dark, we're saved!'... imo they'll just find more of the same. This isn't like Demons' Souls, where there is an easy way out in the form of nonexistence - the dark is inevitable. And I congratulate the writers for (mostly) not touching said theme, because the Japanese inevitably screw up writing this (think evangelion, most 2DEEP anime and manga etc)

Imo, the only work I've seen that handled the theme of nonexistence in a poignant manner is http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0416871/ . Literally epic-Tolkienesque style without making me think "this is overtly sentimental/beta". Just my 2 cents...

by Undiscovery Mon Aug 12, 2013 2:33 pm

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Post n°120

Re: Dark Lord Ending Conjecture

Post by Undiscovery Mon Aug 12, 2013 2:33 pm

Yeah they resist the fall to dark, I said people who steal it, i.e. invade not summoned. And I was actually referring to real world as in-real-life. I don't road kill my city but I'll do it in a game like Grand Theft Auto, in that games perspective, I'm very crazy. twisted

I'm just saying the same rules apply here when talking about the Chosen being crazy.

The Lord Souls all satiated in the Lordvessel looks alot like the very fire they come from or any fire for that instance so who knows. What is to note when relighting the flame, you're burning with the majority of the Dark Soul and Light Soul just attained from gwyn and leave the other Lord Souls as well as some of Gwyns in the Lordvessel. So maybe burning the Dark Soul like that really does remove the curse and keep the world lit for many eons or may be engulfs the world in the ever expanding white anti-abyss as opposed to the dark-abyss spreading. Alternatively when you extinguish the fire you can still attain the whole of the Lord Souls power as the Dark Lord making you more than just the Dark Soul Keeper. So really the endings do imply a great paradigm shift, not just fires fading and going dark.

All I know is I wish it'd let me trek the entire Kiln for feels.

by δelta Tue Aug 13, 2013 4:05 am

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Post n°121

Re: Dark Lord Ending Conjecture

Post by δelta Tue Aug 13, 2013 4:05 am

Undiscovery wrote:Yeah they resist the fall to dark, I said people who steal it, i.e. invade not summoned. And I was actually referring to real world as in-real-life. I don't road kill my city but I'll do it in a game like Grand Theft Auto, in that games perspective, I'm very crazy. I'm just saying the same rules apply here when talking about the Chosen being crazy.

Forgive me for asking clarification - but invade/=stealing, at least, not in my book happy

So basically this is a situation of "it's just a game bro" combined with the (pseudo)freedom of the game.

Undiscovery wrote:The Lord Souls all satiated in the Lordvessel looks alot like the very fire they come from or any fire for that instance so who knows. What is to note when relighting the flame, you're burning with the majority of the Dark Soul and Light Soul just attained from gwyn and leave the other Lord Souls as well as some of Gwyns in the Lordvessel. So maybe burning the Dark Soul like that really does remove the curse and keep the world lit for many eons or may be engulfs the world in the ever expanding white anti-abyss as opposed to the dark-abyss spreading. Alternatively when you extinguish the fire you can still attain the whole of the Lord Souls power as the Dark Lord making you more than justthe Dark Soul Keeper. So really the endings do imply a great paradigm shift, not just fires fading and going dark.

About the burning part - now you are in the realm of wishitweretrue lol

... burning some humanity does not really change anything. And also... "Light Soul"

Remember, the chosen undead had given up the lord souls to the vessel, and had not (necessarily) consumed Gwyn's own soul yet, so which soul are you referring to? And I'd really like to hear more about the white area where silver knights migrate from right to left you know... I have no idea what it is. (an incarnation of order? what happens when all soul is drained from a place? O_o )

Again, the Dark Lord does not need to have the Dark Soul in his keeping, the Dark Soul is inherent to humankind - every member is part of, and at the same time, IS the dark soul. Only explanation for why the serpents did not wait for a "special" hero, and treated any human as a candidate imo.

And you are VERY right about the paradigm shift... I just wonder, what are the chances that the age of fire and the age of dark loops, one after the other(and now, finally we are back to the thread topic XD )

by Undiscovery Tue Aug 13, 2013 12:33 pm

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Post n°122

Re: Dark Lord Ending Conjecture

Post by Undiscovery Tue Aug 13, 2013 12:33 pm

Yeah, replaying the dark ending it shows you walking out of the kiln into the altar area and the Lordvessel is gone and the stump it sat on is all shattered looking. And Yes I have a lot of wishitweretrue's about Dark Souls ha. They are not labeled as such but instead of saying Witches Lord Soul or Gwyns Lord Soul etc., I just say Light Soul, Life Soul, Death Soul, and Dark Soul respectively.

Just an interesting off note on something previously touched on. Flame Sorceries, being sorceries, generate from the power of the soul, then after the advent supposedly, it became pyromancy which stems from the power of the corporeal body. --I'm just thinking out loud here.

The Serpents speak of you in the Dark Lord context as having returned "My lord, praise thy safe return." - "Our lord hath returned'st…". Kaathe also calls lifedrain the legendary power of the Dark Lord. This imply's a Dark Lord 'second-coming' of some sort.

And who the hell were these other misc. gods like Flann and Fina, or Velka the Rogue Deity, is she just the blacksheep goddess? There's implications that she was the OG behind BotDM. But Flann is called the God of Fire, that seems pretty important since everything's about fire. Fina just seems like the Aphrodite of the goddesses.

Also about the Flames creation, you'll notice it sits ontop the stump of an archtree. So that's interesting. The Firelink altar is almost a mini-replica of the Kiln.

by δelta Tue Aug 13, 2013 1:29 pm

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Post n°123

Re: Dark Lord Ending Conjecture

Post by δelta Tue Aug 13, 2013 1:29 pm

Undiscovery wrote:Yeah, replaying the dark ending it shows you walking out of the kiln into the altar area and the Lordvessel is gone and the stump it sat on is all shattered looking. And Yes I have a lot of wishitweretrue's about Dark Souls ha. They are not labeled as such but instead of saying Witches Lord Soul or Gwyns Lord Soul etc., I just say Light Soul, Life Soul, Death Soul, and Dark Soul respectively.

People find that confusing man, because there is an ongoing theory that each Lord Soul is embodied with an unique quality as mentioned by the intro "heat and cold, life and death, and of course, light and dark".

Thus according to that theory Witch of Izalith's Lord Soul = Life Soul, Nito is Death Soul, Gwyn is Light Soul, and Pygmy is Dark Soul... literally. Basically Im shooting at mirages lol

Undiscovery wrote:Just an interesting off note on something previously touched on. Flame Sorceries, being sorceries, generate from the power of the soul, then after the advent supposedly, it became pyromancy which stems from the power of the corporeal body. --I'm just thinking out loud here.

Uh oh... combine this with the demon fireSAGE being the last practitioner of fire sorcery tells me that sorceries are considered immoral/harmful as it used the power of the soul to light fire etc etc, and pyromancy is considered a better way, and the cost is only borne by the environment(plus society), which rejects it as unnatural.

Also, flame sorceries did not die after the advent - from the intro "the witches weaved great firestorms". Imo weave usually = spells/sorcery, while pyromancy is explicitly CAST (loose reasoning, I know)

One thing, though, Gods = Greek Gods here imo - Gwyn is Zeus, wise old bearded guy who farts lightning.. Gwynevere is Aphrodite (or maybe... whatishername.. Demeter, goddess of fertility)... Gwyndolin is Dionysus or Hephastaesus and so it goes. Considering the story of Prometheus and the major theme FIRE that had a part in it (guy got chained to a rock with vultures eating his liver for stealing fire from the gods and giving it to man), can you draw plot parallels? I sure can big grin

Undiscovery wrote:And who the hell were these other misc. gods like Flann and Fina, or Velka the Rogue Deity, is she just the blacksheep goddess? There's implications that she was the OG behind BotDM. But Flann is called the God of Fire, that seems pretty important since everything's about fire. Fina just seems like the Aphrodite of the goddesses.

Velka is Goddess of Sin. Wild speculation... I believe she is the crow that carries you from undead asylum and back. Velka is a witch, and one of witches major powers is shapeshifting. Combine that with all the weird crow chicks hanging around Painted World (bearing Souvenirs of Reprisal courtesy of the deal between her and Gwyndolin), the number of crows surrounding the Dark Ember and the murdered blacksmith, and the fact that Velka has a major connection to Priscilla and the Painted world... just speculah, as I said, but I'll argue for this.

Flann is mentioned just once, and if someone told Finna's story I'd get bored, considering what I know of Lautrec's. If FROM ever decided to expand on their story, it'd be like Game of Thrones ("the action is in westeros, who the *** gives a damn about ze cliche story of ze dragon queen!!" is a frequent complaint)

Undiscovery wrote:Also about the Flames creation, you'll notice it sits ontop the stump of an archtree. So that's interesting. The Firelink altar is almost a mini-replica of the Kiln.

And the entire setup looked like the Lordvessel was burning the tree for fuel. Ouch... Witch of Izalith worked on interior design there, I believe, or is it the place you see in the intro with Gwyn and his army?

One last thing... I don't know if I mentioned this, but there was a split of ideals between Gwyn and Gwynevere+Gwyndolin (yes I know the latter has daddy issues but still), with the Silver Knights supporting the Goddess, and the Black Knights, the ones who fought with Gwyn on his campaign against the chaos demons, supported Gwyn... and it looks like Gwyn didn't set up the chosen undead thing, as he was insane by then.

Basically what I'm saying is that Gwyn left to link the flame, and once his children saw that he was only partially successful, they set a plan in motion for doing it again, but better. Another indicator of the conflict of ideals is that there is no one guarding Gwyn's honorary tomb other that Gwyndolin, who prefers a hands-off approach, and yet there is an entire battalion of weirdos guarding an illusion(the only counter to this theory is lordvessel description, but since that came from Gwynevere...)

Oh, and the silver knights are probably unaware, as are Pikachu and Snorlax, that Gwynevere is an illusion. If they are... well, I wouldn't be able to comprehend their mindset.

by Undiscovery Tue Aug 13, 2013 2:46 pm

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Post n°124

Re: Dark Lord Ending Conjecture

Post by Undiscovery Tue Aug 13, 2013 2:46 pm

Yeah I relate Lore-dran to Greek mythology all the time. Gwynevere is described as goddess of fertility like Demeter, she also almost seems like an Athena figure. Fina being the goddess of fateful beauty just seemed like Aphrodite and aside from being fine-ah she was a relatively boring goddess too. I don't think there was a necessary split, but I do follow their attempt to recreate the flame only better after Gwyn also going along with the theory that Gwyn actually failed at doing it like the witch, which caused the undead curse not because he wanted to cause it directly, much like the Witch, it was accidental. But as the course of nature to return to dark may be it was just natures way of challenging Gwyns efforts. The Silver Knight are said to have stayed back to guard the illusory princess, this implies they were ordered to and that they are aware she's an illusion. Not necessarily because there was infighting. Gwyndolin is known for his repulsive looks (dem snake feet on herm body). He had his followers but he wasn't revered or worshiped like Gwynevere or Gwyn; or his forsaken-brother for that matter.

Also funny note while on the topic is the Name systems for Gwyns Family and The Witches. Gwyn's family are all variant's of his name so it's likely his Firstborn began with the name Gwyn as well. Maybe he was Gwyn Junior? The Witches family also shares this trait as the named sisters share the 'Quel' it is likely the Witch of Izilith's name may have been Quel or simply Que in a similiar fashion to Gwyn. Gwyn (in it's Gwen form, at least) literally means White or Holy, I can't find any etymology for Quel names however, with the exception that it means 'which'.. I think I smell a pun.

Connecting Dot's with the name etymologies;
Gwyn-evere = "Holy/White-Fair"
Gwyn-Dolin = "White-Brow" (The name actually means this, brow being a gangway from ship to shore.)

Likewise if we take Quel's 'Which' to refer to 'Witch' then,

Quel-Ana = Witch-Grace

Not sure for Quelaag.

by δelta Tue Aug 13, 2013 3:12 pm

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Post n°125

Re: Dark Lord Ending Conjecture

Post by δelta Tue Aug 13, 2013 3:12 pm

Undiscovery wrote:Yeah I relate Lore-dran to Greek mythology all the time. Yeah Gwynevere is described as goddess of fertility like Demeter, she also almost seems like an Athena figure. Fina being the goddess of fateful beauty just seemed like Aphrodite and aside from being fine-ah she was a relatively boring goddess too. I don't think there was a necessary split, but I do follow their attempt to recreate the flame only better after Gwyn also going along with the theory that Gwyn actually failed at doing it like the witch, which caused the undead curse not because he wanted to cause it directly, much like the Witch, it was accidental. But as the course of nature to return to dark may be it was just natures way of challenging Gwyns efforts.

I don't think Gwyn's failure was accidental... with everyone and their dog saying that the dark will happen anyway, his mentality is probably like that of the chosen undead's "buy time." And instead of "nature opposed Gwyn", say "the plot is intent to screw Gwyn over" happy

Undiscovery wrote:The Silver Knight are said to have stayed back to guard the illusory princess, this implies they were ordered to and that they are aware she's an illusion. Not necessarily because there was infighting. Gwyndolin is known for his repulsive looks (dem snake feet on herm body). He had his followers but he wasn't revered or worshiped like Gwynevere or Gwyn; or his forsaken-brother for that matter.

Their silver armor implies they didn't go to fight the chaos demons either which were a massive threat that consumed an entire city and a Lord. Sound like direct insubordination to you? Considering Gwyn lost spectacularly against the demons one would think he'd send for reinforcements...

Undiscovery wrote:Also funny note while on the topic is the Name systems for Gwyns Family and The Witches. Gwyn's family are all variant's of his name so it's likely his Firstborn began with the name Gwyn as well. Maybe he was Gwyn Junior? The Witches family also shares this trait as the named sisters share the 'Quel' it is likely the Witch of Izilith's name may have been Quel or simply Que in a similiar fashion to Gwyn. Gwyn (in it's Gwen form, at least) literally means White or Holy, I can't find any etymology for Quel names however, with the exception that it means 'which'.. I think I smell a pun.

Huh. Shadow of the parent... the progenitor of mommy and daddy issues. This sounds more like Bioware to me(or evangelion lol)... you do know about everyone speculating Solaire being the God of War (and the utter irony that he helps kill his father)? I disagree with the theory, but it actually lines up with the symbolism.(Zeus chucked Hephaestus off a mountain because his kid displeased and demeaned him)

I dug a bit for roots of the word quel - but all the hits I got were in French (in which I am painfully limited) but this naming scheme combined with Gwyndolin being raised as a daughter (to the point of having tits... see concept art) kind of solidifies Gwyn as a domineering patriarch.

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