Sorry for the nitpick response, it was kind of ill-considered. I'll hold up booze and 72 hours of sleep deprivation as the culpritUndiscovery wrote:Long text but I'll address what I can.
They are not assumptions, you are simply picking apart evidence with an underdeveloped view of the lore. Humans did not exist before the fire, pygmy's did, all were pygmy's who lived in the dark underground and there were dragons ontop. From the Dark they came and attained the power of Lords. BOTH the Pygmy and Gwyn bequeathed their souls, Gwyn to his family and select few to create the Gods, the pygmy was the progenitor of the human race, 'human' being nothing more than a name we call ourselves.. It is possible Quel bequeathed her soul, but She used most of hers on the BoC and Nito used his to administer the cycle of death to the world.
And I don't understand how grinding has anything to do with what I said on purpose. You are driven by something whether it be conceit, like stated by the Crestfallen Merchant, or any number of reasons you continue through dark souls.
Zero evidence that Manus came into contact with the Abyss
?? I have no idea where you're getting all your lore info or how you go about interpreting it but Manus is the FATHER of the abyss, it emanates FROM HIM. The Abyss is the power of the Dark Soul. Life drain is the attempt to reform as much of the Dark Soul as possible. Dark doesn't 'devour' itself, because it is nothingness.. that is the literal definition of Abyss. The whole point is to destroy everything so that none of it remains, 'dark' doesn't exist anymore at that point because there is no disparity to classify something as dark.
Perhaps a human soul is closer to matter in its humanity."--Dark Orb/Bead
i.e. physical matter as the first part of the full DB description would describe it.. Without human nature, the desire to 'own' something, we lack any desire of manifestation from our Souls PoV. Our Desires and purposes is what shapes the physical world, we're closer to physical matter in our humanity/human nature. Physical matter as in 'an object' Having no actual free will just the illusion of it.
I say reread my posts more carefully and do a bit more digging. I have viewed all the cut content I am not equating Man to Dark as much as I mean Humanity. As not all humans even became undead, only the more powerful Dark Soul shards.
However I agree humanity and the soul are different I think that it's a rhetorical question on the description. "The mysteries of souls, crystals, and the sorceries are deeply intertwined." --CSS. As the Everlasting Dragons and Pygmys did exist as the original Life of the Soul, and Dragons being the keepers of the primordial crystal.
On that note, Primordial is more than a suggestion it literally means the first of something, Kaathe says himself the pygmy is the progenitor of man, and Chester subsequently refers to Manus as Primordial man, The first of Man. What does not connect about that?
Also the firekeepers are not human, they are physical manifestations of the bonfires, the point of which is to surrogate humanty and dampen the influence of The Dark. The firekeeper soul is eternally gnawed on my surrogated humanities
Let's respond in Socratic fashion. Yes, I knew it was said so somewhere about the Firekeepers being manifestations, but I think that it refers to the Firekeeper Souls, not the Keepers themselves, in light of what the Crestfallen Warrior said about Anastacia, and also of what we know of the Darkmoon Knightess. Also, according to your logic, the White Lady (damn we need her name) would not exist before the Daughter of Chaos bonfire, when she was alive from around the time of the Advent.
Also, you are attaching overt importance to the Primordial Crystal - it was merely part of the dragons' hoard which Seath took. By the looks of it, the dragons did not bother with it much, and only Seath experimented with it, and souls, to attain pseudo-immortality. Again, the shape of the soul is related to the crystal, and to sorcery as you mentioned, but nothing is mentioned about humanity, which has its own combo - (humanity-chaos-dark).
On the topic of those cursed with the Darksign - to my knowledge, there is no proof that only the most powerful got cursed, the event seems random as hell - look at both undead merchants, all the undead warriors etc. If I drew a relation it would be of the afflicted being unable to fully integrate with society eg Laurentius, Undead Female Merchant etc. but I have nothing solid to back it up with.
Now, on the Pygmy... look at the literal meaning of the words "furtive Pygmy." Furtive means pseudo-hiding nearly all the time, and Pygmy is defined as - An individual of unusually small size and/or considered to be of little or no importance. Also, since it is shown that there was society before the advent of the Fire - hell, there were fire sorceries that had nothing to do with it, it is a fair bet to say that humans did have functioning realms before the Fire, and thus identifying the Pygmy as the original Life of the Soul is kind of... yeah.
But this contradicts directly with your interpretation (and the Gods', I believe) of the Dark Orb spell and humanity in general. Listen to the cut content again - Artorias disagrees with you, in believing that humans must be something more. Basically big theological battle going on here, and according to your interpretation, humanity is destined to implode in Dark Souls, which I disagree with big time. Call it a difference of opinion
About Manus... what I meant is that I hold (and there's plenty of evidence of it) that the New Londo and Oolacile Abyss are separate in both nature and location (duh). The Oolacile abyss is darkness with the intent to devour, and emanates from Manus, primordial man, who I hold to be /= furtive pygmy (the word ornery does not suit the pygmy, and other reasons besides). The Oolacile Abyss was generated when the citizens drove Manus' humanity mad... but I keep talking in circles, Straight to the point... I think that Dark=Nothingness is a false equivalency, and there is a difference between "Dark cast upon the world" and "nothing" (think Darkness as put forward in the Malazan books), and it especially contradicts the implied loop in Dark Souls (though that is just my theory).
Now on to the beginning of the post - I believe there is a difference between "use the power of", "broke into shards", and "the soul broke into a million pieces". Nito used the power of the Lord Soul to rule, as did the 4 Kings before their Fall to the Dark. The Witch used the power of her soul to create the Flame of Chaos, which devoured her and her daughters to create a hybrid amalgamation ie Bed of Chaos. The Lord Soul remained intact in BOTH cases. Gwyn broke his into pieces for others to use, and the Dark Soul broke into millions of pieces. Also there is no evidence that pygmy=human being - the furtive pygmy seems more a title (see definition above) though that is up to interpretation like much in Dark Souls.
I guess the point I am trying to make is that just as Dark Soul is not = Dark, the Flame and its souls are not = Fire - both existed before the Advent.