Dark Lord Ending Conjecture

Soris Ice Goldwing wrote:Why do the serpents like Kaathe want man to take over is beyond me.

Should have said that from the beginning  It kills the main argument.

Just a few more points

Soris Ice Goldwing wrote:before the abyss corrupted them. 

I kind of doubt this. Kaathe gave them lifedrain, he did not turn them evil. Lifedrain requires good judgement to use - because otherwise every human can be seen as nothing more than a repository of humanity. My view is, the kings got the power and went on a spree. Even Kaathe says - "they were strong, but saw not the truth", and if Kaathe told them, like he told the player, one can be certain they did not listen.

Also Gough actually supports Kaathe in this regard. Look at what he says -

"But, seduced by a Dark serpent or no, They awoke that thing themselves, and drove it mad."

He directly says that the citizens of Oolacile brought their doom on themselves. The two situations seem parallel to me.

Soris Ice Goldwing wrote:Why there is a bonfire in the Abyss is like how after a bonfire forms after every lordvessel soul dies. I say it can be the leftovers of their power turned into a bonfire.

Manus disproves that. A bonfire spawns in the same way after he dies, and humanity creating bonfires is kind of a stretch.

Soris Ice Goldwing wrote:You are the sole ruler of a nation. Everything you say is law and no one can say otherwise. But what happens when your people want a republic or democracy were the people can have a voice? You would refuse and do what it takes to stay in power. 

That kind of sounds like "drunk on power". But there is actual evidence that the gods support honor and forgiveness, and see the dark as evil incarnate, as in standard situation of good vs evil.

Soris Ice Goldwing wrote:We can't prove why the seprents do what they do and there is not much evidence showing what their intentions are. I have my theory but I feel there is too little information to base an argument.

My whole theory on the abyss is a very long and I can't write it down for now. Main point is that the abyss is a living being of pure corruption the taints everything it touches as it did Oolacile and Artorias even though he walked in the abyss. I'll explain it  in detail when I wake up.


I did not say Kaathe corrupted the 4 kings I said the abyss which is different. The lifedrain was the start but the abyss seek in and turned the 4kings into the hunters of humanity and turned there knights into the darkwraiths. This was why New Londo was flooded by the sealers to stop them from being free. Which to me is better as, can you think of the chance the darkwraiths and the black knights roaming free? Terrifying to me.


As for Manus. To sum it as I really need sleep is that his soul his filled with humanity. Perhaps his soul has a similar effect and it is implied that Manus is the Pgmy who found the dark soul. Also it would make sense that humanity creates bonfires and we have to give humanity to kindle the bonfire for more flask. There is a strong link to each.


Also I find it odd how the gods offer forgiveness when the Darkmoons exist and Gwyndolin and Velka as the gods of vengeance and justice.

Will wait for your explanation... this is kind of tantalizingly hazy 

Btw the Black Knights were supposed to roam free, but they removed it late in development. And they have NO relation to the Abyss - they are the souls of the Silver Knights who died facing the demon horde out of Izalith.

And also Undead are burnt to create bonfires (e la witch hunts) aka their essence utterly destroyed to fuel the fire. Again, applying that to Manus is a stretch.

And about the gods... that's where the "shepherding" comes in. The corrupt priest of Velka at the bell tower(his name escapes me right now - need to take a nap as well) wouldn't exist under normal conditions. What's more odd is that Velka does not oversee her priest - she simply lets him get away with all his ****, indicative that the gods have really turned tail and ran from Lordran.(and far more i think, but I've had too many shots to decipher it now)

Soris Ice Goldwing wrote:Okay my theory of the Abyss is this but I need to give some backstory. A few months ago I read the Hot Zone which focused on a real lethal disease back in the 70s to late 80s that still exist now. So it hit me to look at the abyss from the view as a disease. After a bit of rather annoying looking at the DLC areas I formed this.

The abyss is the formation of something that has very strong corrupting powers or a taint. What or how it was created is a mystery but it acts as a parasite with only two goals in mind: Corrupt and consume. What I mean by consume is shown in the Chasm of the Abyss and what Oolacile was became in our present: Darkroot Garden and Basin. my idea is that the True Abyss, not the Oolacile Abyss was the one that is sealed in New Londo, the one that Artorias first crossed and also the one that destroyed New Londo. Looking at the disease viewpoint I see the Abyss in Oolacile as a different strain of Abyss. As in it is a form of Abyss that was separate from the true Abyss. Think Oolacile strain was trapped with Manus and was freed when the people of Oolacile were tricked by a serpent (May not be Kaathe as the dark lord ending shows more serpents) and thought they could control it. Well we know they did not, and like a very lethal disease the Oolacile strain become "hot" (active) and left Manus who I held as patient zero or the first host and started to corrupt and consume the land. The thing for me is that the dark ooze on the floors and walls is in fact the Oolacile strain spreading, slowly but surely transforming the land. For me I believe that though Artorias walked the true Abyss, he entered Oolacile while it was still very hot, at least compared to when we came to Oolacile were the Oolacile strain seemed to have cooled down as it stopped to where Artorias was fought and killed by us, and fell to it's strong corruption. Not before Artorias sealed Sif to keep his friend safe from the corruption as well. The major thing I noticed about the Oolaclile strain was that it has no limits. Meaning in a hot phase it would spread and consume basically everything, which I hold as the Abyss goal. I tend to belisve that when we killed both Manus and Artorias, the Oolacile strain had enough control over the land that as time went the Oolacile strain consumed all of the DLC areas and I hold the land was sealed trapping the strain, and as timed past the land became the forest. I believe the true Abyss is in a cool phase, as in it is not active as it was because it is trapped and can't find a new host to spread and anyone foolish to try what Artorias did will be consumed by the abyss than corrupted by it.


That is my theory mind you it has been a few months since I brought this up so I may forgotten a few things so it will be better as I think more.

Interesting angle with the "corrupting the land" bit, because it does look like an infection there. But the rest....

I'm going to take a step back from the infection aspect. Elizabeth (that mushroom) said that the Abyss spreading from Oolacile stopped because Manus was killed... aka Manus was truly the Father of the Abyss - he was spawning it. Secondly, there is zero evidence that the Oolacile abyss grew, and even if it did, there would be no way to seal it, since magical sealing at that big a scale is seemingly not possible (look at New Londo, they had to drown it). My counter is that the Abyss simply stopped growing and faded, and the land of Oolacile, ruined, turned into Darkroot garden over time.

Same with the seemingly limitless spreading of the Oolacile abyss - Manus died, and it stopped. Also Manus cannot be classified as a patient or infected, since he spawned the Abyss - it apparently is his "ornery" wrath.

Again, for the "true" abyss, it's not spreading because it is sealed, thus indicating that the Abyss has limits, and requires agents to do the spreading for it(darkwraiths). Take that as you will.

Soris Ice Goldwing wrote:You actually prove my points a bit. I wrote that the Oolacile abyss had a host and it was manus who was that. I see what happened in Oolacile as a virus and a virus needs a host. so when Manus died the Oolacile abyss lost it's ability to last longer than it did. However Manus was the father of the Oolacile abyss but not the Abyss in New Londo as it was already there. And evidence when we fought Artorias proves that he went to New Londo first and the Oolacile. Also the evidence that the Oolacile abyss grew is in modern Darkroot as there is little to no remnants of the city and it appears like in the chasm that as it took over the buildings and left only nature to grow over it. I see that it changed to land as time went on. And yes the true Abyss can't spread as it was sealed but eats anything that falls.

About the Oolacile Abyss, what I'm saying is that it's not self-sustaining like the standard Abyss - there the Four Kings back it up, after a fashion. Thus after Manus died, Elizabeth says that the abyss stopped spreading. As for the general state of the land and lack of buildings - did you miss Moonlight butterfly? The architecture is still around, and the rest is what happens if a long time passes.

Also, what's so special about water that it seals the Abyss? More like it seals its agents which are critical for the Abyss to spread.

Soris Ice Goldwing wrote:The water is to keep the darkwraiths from being free. It was the sealers who keep the abyss and the 4 kings trapped. However as long as one sealer is in New Londo the 4kings are trapped.

You can kill that one sealer to grab his key - the Four kings still stay trapped.

The Four Kings works as the indirect leaders of the Darkwraith, and the water served to keep both the Darkwraiths and The Four Kings. The Abyss.

I believe both the abysses are the same, just in different periods in time.

To make use of a virus similar. I think of Abyss as it is evolving and, right now it is stagnant.

The earlier Abyss, the Oolacile one, is slowly spreading while the the other one was in it's prime until the four kings fell

Edit:


Key to the floodgates of New Londo, which seal away the Four Kings who fell to Dark.


The Sealers flooded New Londo to banish the Darkwraiths and the Four Kings. The agonizing decision was made with the realization that countless lives, and the robust culture of the city, would be lost. The victims now roam the ruins as ghosts.

Teh Kitten´s Cat wrote:
Key to the floodgates of New Londo, which seal away the Four Kings who fell to Dark.


The Sealers flooded New Londo to banish the Darkwraiths and the Four Kings. The agonizing decision was made with the realization that countless lives, and the robust culture of the city, would be lost. The victims now roam the ruins as ghosts.

 I'd agree with this if the Sealers used magical means to seal off the 4 Kings but what they did was (quoting you)-

Key to the floodgates of New Londo, which seal away the Four Kings who fell to Dark.


Floodgates. Further evidenced that a lever breaks the seal, nothing magical.


As to the banishment angle, I know what high fantasy usually means by it, but Google says -

Google wrote:ban·ish
/ˈbaniSH/Verb
Send (someone) away from a country or place as an official punishment: "they were banished to Siberia".
Forbid, abolish, or get rid of (something unwanted): "all thoughts of romance were banished from her head".

(btw this is me grasping at straws  )

Now on to the meat...

Teh Kitten´s Cat wrote:I believe both the abysses are the same, just in different periods in time....
The earlier Abyss, the Oolacile one, is slowly spreading while the the other one was in it's prime until the four kings fell

We know that Manus spawned the Abyss in Oolacile - it emanated from a pissed off primordial human. We have no idea if this is the same case with the New Londo Abyss - especially since the Four Kings found it, they did not generate it. They fell to Dark.

I'd say that the Oolacile Abyss was... an anomaly, brief in existence, and spread for an even shorter span of time, but not before turning Oolacile into a graveyard.

Btw why does the Abyss (and Darkwraiths) hate water? It's obviously not a breathing problem, yet they do not have enough enterprise to kill one old man and take his key?

Btw why does the Abyss (and Darkwraiths) hate water? It's obviously not a breathing problem, yet they do not have enough enterprise to kill one old man and take his key?

The lift doesn't work and they can't get up, while the ghosts just pass through it .

It's pretty plausible depending on composition that darkwraiths wouldn't be able to surface, or if they did they'd not be able to do so with any weapons.  Bare fists w/o dragon form are pretty weak in DS.

δelta wrote:We know that Manus spawned the Abyss in Oolacile - it emanated from a pissed off primordial human. We have no idea if this is the same case with the New Londo Abyss - especially since the Four Kings found it, they did not generate it. They fell to Dark.

I'd say that the Oolacile Abyss was... an anomaly, brief in existence, and spread for an even shorter span of time, but not before turning Oolacile into a graveyard.

Btw why does the Abyss (and Darkwraiths) hate water? It's obviously not a breathing problem, yet they do not have enough enterprise to kill one old man and take his key?

I've never said that the Four kings generated it. -.-

Teh Kitten´s Cat wrote:
I've never said that the Four kings generated it. -.-

Quoting you...

Teh Kitten´s Cat wrote:I believe both the abysses are the same, just in different periods in time....
....the other one was in it's prime until the four kings fell....

If I jumped the gun, my bad. But this seems to imply Four Kings = integral part of New Londo Abyss.

Soris Ice Goldwing wrote:I see what you getting at and I can believe that. Also I the water was just to keep them trapped on the floor. I'm going to apply gravity here and we know that armor, or any of our gear floats so I say the water forces pressure keeping the dark wraiths from getting out due to weight. It is not that they hate water they just can't float.

TheMeInTeam wrote: The lift doesn't work and they can't get up, while the ghosts just pass through it .

It's pretty plausible depending on composition that darkwraiths wouldn't be able to surface, or if they did they'd not be able to do so with any weapons. Bare fists w/o dragon form are pretty weak in DS.

Just send someone up (without armor/weapons if need be) to pull the lever/kill the old man. Their entire campaign is being held up by water and a gate whose key is literally in sight. The Darkwraiths are not the only agents of the Abyss... there are plenty of others (player being one of them). And yet in the last 2000(?) years and all the chosen undead that came along, nobody could open the gate?

And this is kind of odd, but I think the Abyss can't really corrupt water. Why, I wonder?

I kinda think that they are key to sustaining it, forcing it into a kind of resting stage until someone else fall to it.

Soris Ice Goldwing wrote:I don't we are in the age where humans can swim as we still sink in water

How is one related to the other? I fail to see the connection. (Btw one of the best lines i've seen in a while)

Soris Ice Goldwing wrote:So my idea is that the last sealer is from a high point where he is safe.

Climbing? If the player is capable of it, so can the Darkwraiths, I think. And since all the ghosts are physics breaking, the high point argument in New Londo is kind of pointless. Oh, and take a second look at Ingward (the sealer's) equipment - a tin banishment catalyst in the right hand and a jagged blade in the left. E la he's expecting ghosts more than Darkwraiths, and not even he subscribes to the high point argument.

Soris Ice Goldwing wrote: I think they are like the Black knights and there is nothing under the armor. It would explain why the are trapped underwater.

Black knights were originally supposed to be free-roaming, remember? Then they cancelled that because it was too game-breaking. So if the Darkwraiths are anything like the Black Knights, you'd think they would be able to use noclip.

And see other examples of humanity-corrupted knights e la Artorias. Manus also falls in the category(loosely) I believe, and they are definitely not insubstantial. Artorias and Manus both dropped souls, and Manus definitely had a physical body.

Teh Kitten´s Cat wrote:I kinda think that they are key to sustaining it, forcing it into a kind of resting stage until someone else fall to it.

You realize that the 4 kings die, and nothing changes (except the bonfire, but that's compulsory). Unless the player replaced them (which is possible). Even then the Abyss existed before 4 Kings - remember, they fell to it... and continues with no change after they die.

But it might stay the way it was like, not changing, just staying without spreading until someone new comes along.

My wording isn't the best (-.-')

Teh Kitten´s Cat wrote:But it might stay the way it was like, not changing, just staying without spreading until someone new comes along.

My wording isn't the best (-.-')

No worries :)You should hear me talk - there's a 5% chance that a word is understandable once every 10 minutes...


In answer to your argument - someone new did come along. Said person killed the 4 Kings and broke the seal. Still no sign of the Abyss spreading(but that's probably because the Abyss gets tied to the player after the 4 Kings die  ) Humanity is weird...

Well, really, the nature of the abyss is unknowable, because if it spreads, it is doing it too slowly for anyone to notice, and if it is not spreading... Well, yeah.

What is know is that it influences people, or perhaps it was the serpent that resides there (Kaathe *Looks sternly*) Anyways, the nature of the abyss or multiple abysses can only be defined as "Consuming"

Soris Ice Goldwing wrote:I have no explanation for why the abyss stays the same after the 4 kings are dead. It works in strange ways and my only explanation that how we can walk in it with no ring is that we somehow mastered Abysswalking like Artorias.

Dark Lord and all that. Or the player simply took the place of the 4 Kings as top dog. As to the Abyss staying the same, my guess is that it's tied to the player's will, so it expands only if the player wants it to (ie choose to become a Dark Lord). Which is weird since From said the player's main motivation is to rid himself of a curse... but in the end s/he has only 2 options - burn, or rule.

Teh Kitten´s Cat wrote:Well, really, the nature of the abyss is unknowable, because if it spreads, it is doing it too slowly

Oolacile says hi.

Teh Kitten´s Cat wrote: What is know is that it influences people

It made them wear helms which serve as replacement heads, and have a thousand eyes embedded in them... it also warps them against their will. Thus "influencing" is an understatement

Teh Kitten´s Cat wrote: or perhaps it was the serpent that resides there (Kaathe *Looks sternly*)

Missing an s there - serpents
Why do the primordial serpents favor the dark is... well, up for debate.

Teh Kitten´s Cat wrote: Anyways, the nature of the abyss or multiple abysses can only be defined as "Consuming"

I'd say warping. Look at Manus, Artorias, 4 Kings, Darkwraiths, all Oolacile residents. In fact, imo difference between 2 Abyss is that one forcibly warps everything around it... sort of like enforce dark, and in the case of the other, people have choices in the matter, and it's sort of.... there, like standard Dark.

I think I have an idea.

The primordial serpents existed long before the age of fire, so let's say the age of ancient is "Dark".

What if they seek their original living conditions, and because the age of dark is the most similar they strive for that?

Teh Kitten´s Cat wrote:
The primordial serpents existed long before the age of fire, so let's say the age of ancient is "Dark".

What if they seek their original living conditions, and because the age of dark is the most similar they strive for that?

If the Age of Ancients=Age of Dark actually applies. And there is a lot that speaks for this - the gods are dead/gone, the dragons are on the rise, lots of shriveled humanoids hanging around etc. Except what Kaathe and Frampt say of their motivations talk of something bigger than themselves.

Look at Kaathe - "I seek to right the wrongs of the past, and discover our true Lord"


Now contrast that with Frampt - "your fate... is to succeed the Great Lord Gwyn"



Notice the difference? Kaathe has not acknowledged Gwyn as their lord (old man and all that), and Frampt clearly is in the Gods' camp even when he is full on lying.



Basically what I'm saying is that the primordial serpents are like humans in that regard - working for a cause, to the extent of sacrificing everything (look at Frampt who wakes up every 100+ years).