Dark Lord Ending Conjecture

Hmm. In the world of Dark Souls, aren't the undead the most "human" of them all?

Kaathe might be thinking about his fellow serpents and Frampt being selfish, only seeking to further his own greed.

The greatest difference between age of dark/age of ancients is that the dragons is dead and the undead will forever roam, being lead by the dark lord, the ultimate deity, basically.

Teh Kitten´s Cat wrote:Hmm. In the world of Dark Souls, aren't the undead the most "human" of them all?

Kaathe might be thinking about his fellow serpents and Frampt being selfish, only seeking to further his own greed.

The greatest difference between age of dark/age of ancients is that the dragons is dead and the undead will forever roam, being lead by the dark lord, the ultimate deity, basically.

Gonna disagree on this count. Firstly, the dragons are far from dead - hatchling at the bottom of Ash Lake - definitely female and possibly Fire Keeper.

And Dark Lord=Ultimate Deity.... not enough evidence foe this, imo. If the argument is "SEEN" as a deity, then sure. But all the serpents know that the Chosen Undead is human. Basically, I know what you meant by Deity, but imo the player is more of a Lord.

In the world of Dark Souls, most humanity=most human aka Darkwraiths are the most human of them all. And they use the term human in negative connotation - as in "it is only human to commit a sin" where the quality basically becomes an excuse(look at 4 Kings - what they did is indeed very human.... megalomania.... but in this case the description is the most fallacious of excuses.) Also ties into why the gods think humans need to be "shepherded"... because they are too shortsighted etc etc.... at least that's my take on it.

Now, about Kaathe and Frampt... look again.

Kaathe is in search of the true Lord of men.... whereas Frampt has already found them in the form of the the gods. Now he is lying, plotting etc all in their name... now I can't say if he actually wants to further his status(not enough context), besides, what's the point? Lordran is empty. But what is evident is that the serpents have causes they have devoted themselves too. Whether it's self imposed like Kaathe, or acquired, like Frampt, the motivations are there, though it's kinda hard to find them when Kaathe is mostly silent on the Darkwraith fiasco and Frampt is lying all the *** time.

That was well thought out.

I retract my statement.

I did stretch the "Deity" a lot, I agree.

I do not have much more to add to this subject, now.

Soris Ice Goldwing wrote:I got little to argue here. Though how is the everlasting dragon a female?

I beleive that is a requisite of Firekeepers.. can't remember properly. But Everlasting dragon being a Firekeeper can't be proven or disproven as it does have a health bar, but is unkillable. The only evidence for it is the +2 kindled bonfire right in front of it.

I wonder if Everlasting dragons even have genders.

They've been stated to be part of nature, so I wonder if they even reproduce.

Teh Kitten´s Cat wrote:I wonder if Everlasting dragons even have genders.

They've been stated to be part of nature, so I wonder if they even reproduce.

The one in Ash lake is tiny when compared to the Everlasting Dragons in the intro - or even the size of the Dragon's Tooth.... that dragon's head is too tiny for it to be fullsized, so I can assume it's a kid. And since it's a kid, someone birthed it, implying female dragons(further supported by bonfire), or asexual birth, or giant storks that are capable of carrying dragon babies.

Soris Ice Goldwing wrote:Don't some of them go undead like the undead one we see? And then again Everlasting dragons have powers I don't think have ever been shown aside from the dragon covenant.

 Are you talking about Izalith dragon asses?

Soris Ice Goldwing wrote:I was referring to the ones in the painted world and valley of Drakes but that counts to.

I got nothing on this, because information on undead dragons is kind of limited. But the idea is that it's tied to Seath and the primordial crystal he looted off the dragons. If he hadn't all of those undead dragons would be unkillable. Personally I think they are hatchlings or experiments since they are smaller than the Hellkite Drake.

As for the Izalith ones - basically corrupted by the Flame of Chaos. Besides, they are the epitome of utterly horrible enemy design, so I really haven't dug into them much. Sorry, I have bias in certain cases too.

Not really sure what the argument is here anymore, but I remember something about the Abyss having at one point ceased being a force that corrupts and mutates what it touches. If that was a topic that was discussed, that isn't quite accurate. The process has likely slowed down (or perhaps it's due to it being sealed under the water. Mythology, and what not.), but it is still mutating those who are touched by it:

"Some say the skeletal mask of an ancient Darkwraith is partially fused with the flesh of its face.
Armor of the Darkwraiths, former knights of New Londo who descended into Dark. Their Armor transformed, and remains a symbol of the Dark servants and their diabolical art of Lifedrain."

Shkar wrote:Not really sure what the argument is here anymore

Same here  let the thread die, man..
but for the sake of discussion I will try to provide my POV.
(btw you tag is so appropriate right now)

Shkar wrote: "Some say the skeletal mask of an ancient Darkwraith is partially fused with the flesh of its face.

Yeah, the same thing happened in Oolacile with the Bloated heads... look at the description.

the head of an Oolacile resident whose humanity went wild after being devoured by the Dark of Manus, Father of the Abyss.


The head is said to have hundreds of miniature eyes in the recesses blah blah.. something no sane human would wear. So the Darkwraith effect isn't exactly unique.


What's interesting here is the timeframe. The Oolacile warping happened near instantaneously when compared to New Londo - there was no choice implicit in the matter.

Furthermore, look at the wording of the Darkwraith headgear - mask of an ancient Darkwraith merges with the face. I assume indiscriminate usage, like the type the 4 Kings and their coterie were guilty to is a factor (no, I don't believe it happens unless the user loses all morality, and even then it takes time - look at the player)

Shkar wrote:but I remember something about the Abyss having at one point ceased being a force that corrupts and mutates what it touches.

Now, to wrap up, I'd say that the Abyss is not a corrupting force per se, but it can be wielded in such mannter, as demonstrated by Manus. There is a choice implicit here, and it's very possibly up to the individual... look at what Kaathe says on the matter -

They were strong, but saw not the truth. I am certain you will be different.


Whereas the Oolacile Abyss was full on corrupt-mutate-destroy because it was apparently the result of someone's "ornery wrath"... and that tendency stopped after Manus died.

Soris Ice Goldwing wrote:Just to say before this thread dies that I enjoyed the discussions. I thought I was done with this section till the next game but this proved me wrong. It was fun.

Welcome

I also enjoyed this discussion... even though it quickly deviated from the original topic.

*Bows*

Welp, this has probably already been said, but I don't really want to go through 7 pages of people discussing, so I'll just input what I think. 
I think it's pretty obvious from the start that Kaathe only see's you as a pawn to spread the abyss. The whole "Dark Lord" thing is just something Kaathe (and maybe Frampt?) made up. The chosen undead has no special powers. Who's to say he won't one day be devoured by the Abyss just like Artorias? That's just my 2 cents.

i just think (like its allredy been said before) in this tre frampt tried to avoid the age of dark but in the end he couldnt do anything to avoid it so he continued his duty to serve the dark lord

AsagiMakai wrote:I think it's pretty obvious from the start that Kaathe only see's you as a pawn to spread the abyss. The whole "Dark Lord" thing is just something Kaathe (and maybe Frampt?) made up. The chosen undead has no special powers. Who's to say he won't one day be devoured by the Abyss just like Artorias? That's just my 2 cents.

Talk about gravedigging...

On topic... if you are playing Dark Souls right now, go to a save where you have to set the Lordvessel on the altar and choose one serpent to do so. Use homeward bone exploit to listen to them both before you place it - "what's wrong? place the lordvessel on the altar." The tone in which they both say it makes me think there is an overabundance of people who fancy themselves chessmasters in Dark Souls.

On the chosen undead having no special powers - you're wrong there. Two things struck me as special... First - he/she does not fall to madness, no matter how many deaths and even at 0 humanity. And secondly, the amount of humanity he/she can hold. Max humanity I have seen in the game is Reah of Thorolund (13 lol) and solid drop is Manus (10 when you kill him). The chosen undead can hold 99.

About the chosen undead being devoured by the abyss - yes, quite possible. But we already see that he/she can keep sane at 99 humanity (it's even useful) whereas Artorias got twisted out of shape - listen to this https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=upzLAJhtnvk ... so I make no bets here.

Ishiotzin wrote:i just think (like its allredy been said before) in this tre frampt tried to avoid the age of dark but in the end he couldnt do anything to avoid it so he continued his duty to serve the dark lord

Or he stays true to the snake mentality - slither to where the sun is, but not too close. Just my 2 cents...

δelta wrote:
Talk about gravedigging...

On topic... if you are playing Dark Souls right now, go to a save where you have to set the Lordvessel on the altar and choose one serpent to do so. Use homeward bone exploit to listen to them both before you place it - "what's wrong? place the lordvessel on the altar." The tone in which they both say it makes me think there is an overabundance of people who fancy themselves chessmasters in Dark Souls.

On the chosen undead having no special powers - you're wrong there. Two things struck me as special... First - he/she does not fall to madness, no matter how many deaths and even at 0 humanity. And secondly, the amount of humanity he/she can hold. Max humanity I have seen in the game is Reah of Thorolund (13 lol) and solid drop is Manus (10 when you kill him). The chosen undead can hold 99.

About the chosen undead being devoured by the abyss - yes, quite possible. But we already see that he/she can keep sane at 99 humanity (it's even useful) whereas Artorias got twisted out of shape - listen to this so I make no bets here.

You got that right.
   But what makes someone hollow is when an Undead has no purpose. They've lost the will to go on. At least that's how I've understood it. I could very well be wrong.

  The Chosen Undead has the will to defeat Gwyn. NPC's hollow when you buy all their spells. Like Reah. She has no purpose and she goes hollow.
 
   I've also always thought that humanity is something that takes a strong will to keep. Artorias had a strong will (evidence by the Wolf Ring) but in the cut dialogue Artorias says himself that "you are strong, surely you are more pure then dark." Which can be taken a number of ways. I see it that Artorias believes you can traverse the Abyss and you won't become corrupted like himself, "You have a stronger will then I" Is what I think he means. So with that being said I think the Chosen Undead just has an extremely strong will to go on, even if he loses all his humanity and becomes a raisin. You press on and on and on till you reach your goal. But the Abyss is another story from Humanity. 
 
    The Abyss warps all that it touches. Not one person we know of in game that has come into contact with the Abyss and remained sane/alive/mutated. Manus has obviously been warped and degenerated by it, the Oolacile residents and Artorias are all walking proof. Like people have said Manus could have been the Pygmy. And when the Dark Soul corrupted his mind, the Primordial Serpents saw an opportunity. Most likely Kaathe. Who is indirectly responsible for many events in the game. Maybe when Kaathe says "Our lord hath returns't" he knows the Abyss may warp us into Manus V2. Basically making the spread of the Abyss unstoppable. Kaathe has manipulated everyone he comes into contact with. The Four Kings, the Darkwraiths, Oolacile. I highly doubt Kaathe gives 2 damns about The Chosen Undead. But he does recognize his will. That's how I see it. 

    Maybe Humanity is a form of the Abyss? Kaathe does want the Darkwraiths to obtain humanity. The more humanity you have, the stronger the Abyss' spread becomes maybe?

A topic I posted that really belongs here----

 We've seen in Oolacile what the Dark will do to man, and with perfect sense. 
Humans are the bequeathed manifestation of the Dark Soul, and Dark is inherently destructive even to itself as described by Dark Fog; "Although Dark Fog is, in theory relatively close to humanity it also happens to be a terrible poison for humans. Perhaps to reflect man's cruelty against his own." Dark caters only to itself, this is human nature, what the Gods fear.
 Man/Dark is the only power able to defeat the Gods/Light, and will inevitably destroy even itself. So what choice is right? What will benefit man? Man only has one choice; destruction. "The will feels envy, or perhaps love, and despite the inevitable trite and tragic ending, the will sees no alternative, and is driven madly towards its target..."--Pursuers
 Darkstalker Kaathe knew and understood this, that Mankind was not a wielder of fate but a weapon. And so Man is used to overthrow the Gods and bring power back to the Serpants, leaving man to it's self-destructive fate... "Perhaps a human soul is closer to matter in its humanity."--Dark Orb/Bead 
From Soft was very poetic and philosophical with how they tied in the human identity to this game. We don't have power, we've never had power, we will never acquire power, we ARE power. A weapon. And our fleeting will gives us the illusion of purpose, and without the illusion of purpose, we go hollow; our true form. Powerless Pygmy's of Pure Dark and no mind of our own to call sane...
"If the soul is the source of all life, then what distinguishes the humanity we hold within ourselves?"
---------------------------------------------- 
Elizabeth states that Artorias will fall to the Abyss because he has 'narry a murmur of dark.' This means he has no Dark within him, and like water pressure implodes/devours his soul. The Chosen Undead is a powerful Dark Soul fragment, the Abyss's influence will not have as dramatic affect.

The Chosen Undead can lose sanity. It is meant to be dependent and symbolized by the players rage quitting or not. Those people who have never finished Dark Souls and rage quit, are Chosen Undead Hollows.

Also upon going to menu and toggling and explanation for the soft humanity stat it will tell you that "Humanity is symbolic for human nature." Which is all been synonymous with Dark in-game.

Undiscovery wrote:A topic I posted that really belongs here----

 We've seen in Oolacile what the Dark will do to man, and with perfect sense. 
Humans are the bequeathed manifestation of the Dark Soul, and Dark is inherently destructive even to itself as described by Dark Fog; "Although Dark Fog is, in theory relatively close to humanity it also happens to be a terrible poison for humans. Perhaps to reflect man's cruelty against his own." Dark caters only to itself, this is human nature, what the Gods fear.
 Man/Dark is the only power able to defeat the Gods/Light, and will inevitably destroy even itself. So what choice is right? What will benefit man? Man only has one choice; destruction. "The will feels envy, or perhaps love, and despite the inevitable trite and tragic ending, the will sees no alternative, and is driven madly towards its target..."--Pursuers
 Darkstalker Kaathe knew and understood this, that Mankind was not a wielder of fate but a weapon. And so Man is used to overthrow the Gods and bring power back to the Serpants, leaving man to it's self-destructive fate... "Perhaps a human soul is closer to matter in its humanity."--Dark Orb/Bead 
From Soft was very poetic and philosophical with how they tied in the human identity to this game. We don't have power, we've never had power, we will never acquire power, we ARE power. A weapon. And our fleeting will gives us the illusion of purpose, and without the illusion of purpose, we go hollow; our true form. Powerless Pygmy's of Pure Dark and no mind of our own to call sane...
"If the soul is the source of all life, then what distinguishes the humanity we hold within ourselves?"
---------------------------------------------- 
Elizabeth states that Artorias will fall to the Abyss because he has 'narry a murmur of dark.' This means he has no Dark within him, and like water pressure implodes/devours his soul. The Chosen Undead is a powerful Dark Soul fragment, the Abyss's influence will not have as dramatic affect.

The Chosen Undead can lose sanity. It is meant to be dependent and symbolized by the players rage quitting or not. Those people who have never finished Dark Souls and rage quit, are Chosen Undead Hollows.

Also upon going to menu and toggling and explanation for the soft humanity stat it will tell you that "Humanity is symbolic for human nature." Which is all been synonymous with Dark in-game.

Nice.
   Humans are drawn to Humanity. It's natural. Humanity is drawn to more humanity. Humans are basically living forms of the Abyss itself. It's obvious that it's destructive in nature. But what is the Abyss itself? Making a black void of New Londo and almost Oolacile. Nothing more then a weapon, just as Kaathe see's it.
 "But is the tapestry you weave truly of your own design? your kind is easy to fathom, you go on living from simple fear of death. I ask again what is your purpose here?" Has the Pygmy simply been completely devoured and became the "Abyss" itself? It's likely the Pygmy was rejected by the other lords and the Abyss is simply rage in form. What happens when the Abyss envelops the entire world? 
Anyways I'm getting off topic. But I did like your paragraph. It sums up what I've been feebly attempting to say.

Gough tells you that the 'Abyss Emanates from Manus Himself.' Hence his name the Father of the Abyss. Like Gwyn, Nito, and Quel (That's what I like to call the Witch of Izalith) they remained the most powerful fragment of their lord souls even after dispersing much of their power. Manus contains the largest fragment of the Dark Soul, the Undead Chosen being second. When the Dark Soul is complete it will devour everything but the serpents who manipulate it. When you become the Dark Lord the Abyss will likely emanate from you as well.

Kaathe and Frampt, I believe, are represented by the Covetous Serpent Rings.
"The serpent is an imperfect dragon and symbol of the Undead. Its habit of devouring prey
even larger than itself has led to an association of gluttony."


They are both Covetous and rob you of your fate.
They are a symbol of the Undead, telling me they caused the  or the 'Undead Curse.'

They do not fall to Dark or the Abyss because they devour things much larger/powerful than they.

Darkstalker Kaathe the Silver Serpent; "This silver ring, engraved with the serpent, rewards its wearer with additional souls for each kill." Shown by Kaathe promise of power for following him.

Kingseeker Frampt the Gold Serpent; "This gold ring, engraved with the serpent, boosts its wearer's item discovery, so that more items can be amassed." This one is obvious by the way he eats items, but on a deeper note shows his quest to gather Undead (item discovery) so that a more powerful flame will be kindled. (More 'items' to use.)

The trigger for the Human Weapon is Purpose, that's is what Kaathe and Frampt give the Chosen Undead. Just tell the dark it'll be seen if does something, it will feel envy, or love and despite the trite and tragic ending sees no alternative and is driven madly towards its target... 

Case Closed, The Serpents did it!

AsagiMakai wrote:   But what makes someone hollow is when an Undead has no purpose. They've lost the will to go on. At least that's how I've understood it. I could very well be wrong.

  The Chosen Undead has the will to defeat Gwyn. NPC's hollow when you buy all their spells. Like Reah. She has no purpose and she goes hollow.
 

Uh.... Reah storyline has 2 ends, as far as I have seen. One, she gets killed by Petrus in Undead Church. Two, the 6-eyed channelers capture her and haul her off to the Archive Prison, where in preparation for being turned to a Picasa, she goes hollow during the wait. Also, chosen undead invalidates your conclusion about no purpose.

During the first quarter of the game all he/she has to go on is - "ring the bells, and something will happen." Before that "pilgrimage to Lordran". How is that a purpose? You should see all the people play Dark Souls with CE and in the end go like "wtf happened?"

AsagiMakai wrote:  I've also always thought that humanity is something that takes a strong will to keep. Artorias had a strong will (evidence by the Wolf Ring) but in the cut dialogue Artorias says himself that "you are strong, surely you are more pure then dark." Which can be taken a number of ways. I see it that Artorias believes you can traverse the Abyss and you won't become corrupted like himself, "You have a stronger will then I" Is what I think he means. So with that being said I think the Chosen Undead just has an extremely strong will to go on, even if he loses all his humanity and becomes a raisin. You press on and on and on till you reach your goal. But the Abyss is another story from Humanity. 

Listen to the video again - when he says "you" he means all humans. It's kind of weird to call someone you just met "pure dark". Also - theory time - I think that all non-humans can get badly warped by humanity just by contact with it, whereas in case of humans it is a curious dual relationship.

Even more odd, Fire Keepers have no inherent humanity - all of it is tied to their (artificial?) soul. I tested this with Dark Hand on Darkmoon Knightess (Anor Londo)... and yep, no humanity. The gods and their creations have an aversion to humanity - as if only in its absence can one be pure (checked Oswald - no humanity, Queelana - no humanity, and goes on). Tie that into Artorias' words and a rather disturbing conclusion appears.

Also, Abyss and Humanity are probably not separate (look at Manus and the Oolacile Abyss). 

AsagiMakai wrote:  The Abyss warps all that it touches. Not one person we know of in game that has come into contact with the Abyss and remained sane/alive/mutated. Manus has obviously been warped and degenerated by it, the Oolacile residents and Artorias are all walking proof. Like people have said Manus could have been the Pygmy. And when the Dark Soul corrupted his mind, the Primordial Serpents saw an opportunity. Most likely Kaathe. Who is indirectly responsible for many events in the game. Maybe when Kaathe says "Our lord hath returns't" he knows the Abyss may warp us into Manus V2. Basically making the spread of the Abyss unstoppable. Kaathe has manipulated everyone he comes into contact with. The Four Kings, the Darkwraiths, Oolacile. I highly doubt Kaathe gives 2 damns about The Chosen Undead. But he does recognize his will. That's how I see it. 

    Maybe Humanity is a form of the Abyss? Kaathe does want the Darkwraiths to obtain humanity. The more humanity you have, the stronger the Abyss' spread becomes maybe?

Zero evidence that Manus came into contact with the Abyss - his humanity, driven mad by the Oolacile residents, spawned one.

Btw, I don't think Kaathe was lying when he said - "they failed me, each and every one of them."

My take - Kaathe is searching for the Dark Lord. The Dark Lord uses Lifedrain as his signature tool. Kaathe gives potential candidates Lifedrain - and here is the catch.

By its nature Lifedrain requires absorbing humanity from others to fuel your powers. So for a Darkwraith to maintain sanity, he must learn to dance between overkill and necessity - basically not become power-hungry and start viewing humans as food. The Four Kings didn't do that - their chief trait was megalomania, and their Knights followed them, thus obtaining great power over short time, but failing the test utterly, and promoting devouring dark (oolacile abyss) instead of true dark (what Kaathe hopes the Dark Lord will bring about).

And yes there is a high chance that the Dark Lord may become a Manus 2.0, but I think it is limited. Look at the Darkwraith mask description - only"the most ancient of Darkwraiths had their masks fuse to their faces". Basically right there, written that humans are not susceptible to Dark unless it is a full on corrupting force(manus).

Oh, and you are correct about Humanity having connections to the Abyss, but it also has connections to Chaos, the flame of life itself. Raises questions...

Undiscovery wrote:Humans are the bequeathed manifestation of the Dark Soul

Intro to the game. Humans were there before the Fire.

Undiscovery wrote: Man/Dark is the only power able to defeat the Gods/Light, and will inevitably destroy even itself. So what choice is right? What will benefit man? Man only has one choice; destruction. "The will feels envy, or perhaps love, and despite the inevitable trite and tragic ending, the will sees no alternative, and is driven madly towards its target..."--Pursuers
 Darkstalker Kaathe knew and understood this, that Mankind was not a wielder of fate but a weapon. And so Man is used to overthrow the Gods and bring power back to the Serpants, leaving man to it's self-destructive fate... "Perhaps a human soul is closer to matter in its humanity."--Dark Orb/Bead 

Where do you get the "restore power to the serpents" part? Chain of power was Dragons -> Gods -> Dark Lord. And you are equating man to dark... give this a listen. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=upzLAJhtnvk


The Pursuers spell description is describing humans' nature, true, but destruction is not necessarily the end result, especially since Dark cannot consume itself.

Btw I have no idea of your usage of, Perhaps a human soul is closer to matter in its humanity."--Dark Orb/Bead  - in what context did you take the word "matter"?

Undiscovery wrote:From Soft was very poetic and philosophical with how they tied in the human identity to this game. We don't have power, we've never had power, we will never acquire power, we ARE power. A weapon. And our fleeting will gives us the illusion of purpose, and without the illusion of purpose, we go hollow; our true form. Powerless Pygmy's of Pure Dark and no mind of our own to call sane...
"If the soul is the source of all life, then what distinguishes the humanity we hold within ourselves?"

Even when the humanity counter is 0 in the game, or the undead is in hollow form(not semi-hollow, simply hollow form) the chosen undead can function perfectly. (look at all em sl1 runs) Thus I would argue that humanity and soul are separate, especially since humans existed before the fire.

Undiscovery wrote:Gough tells you that the 'Abyss Emanates from Manus Himself.' Hence his name the Father of the Abyss. Like Gwyn, Nito, and Quel (That's what I like to call the Witch of Izalith) they remained the most powerful fragment of their lord souls even after dispersing much of their power. Manus contains the largest fragment of the Dark Soul, the Undead Chosen being second. When the Dark Soul is complete it will devour everything but the serpents who manipulate it. When you become the Dark Lord the Abyss will likely emanate from you as well.

Ah, so many assumptions  Firstly, the Lord Souls are not fragmented... possessing them grants power, but the only one who did fragment his soul was Gwyn, and he still had his own soul left. Secondly, Manus being the Pygmy is a matter of debate. He is primordial man - think primordial crystal, primordial dragons, serpents... Anything with that prefix immediately hearkens back to pre-Advent of FIre.

Undiscovery wrote:Kaathe and Frampt, I believe, are represented by the Covetous Serpent Rings.
"The serpent is an imperfect dragon and symbol of the Undead. Its habit of devouring prey
even larger than itself has led to an association of gluttony."


They are both Covetous and rob you of your fate.

Again, catch me up. I fail to see connection in "devouring"... Frampt was licking boots. Kaathe was in the Abyss. Same goes for "rob you of your fate"

Undiscovery wrote:The trigger for the Human Weapon is Purpose, that's is what Kaathe and Frampt give the Chosen Undead. Just tell the dark it'll be seen if does something, it will feel envy, or love and despite the trite and tragic ending sees no alternative and is driven madly towards its target... 

Case Closed, The Serpents did it!

Do you grind? If you do, then you would know this statement does not hold true. Dark Souls is only one conclusion, but it's because there can be no other.

Long text but I'll address what I can.

They are not assumptions, you are simply picking apart evidence with an underdeveloped view of the lore. Humans did not exist before the fire, pygmy's did, all were pygmy's who lived in the dark underground and there were dragons ontop. From the Dark they came and attained the power of Lords. BOTH the Pygmy and Gwyn bequeathed their souls, Gwyn to his family and select few to create the Gods, the pygmy was the progenitor of the human race, 'human' being nothing more than a name we call ourselves.. It is possible Quel bequeathed her soul, but She used most of hers on the BoC and Nito used his to administer the cycle of death to the world.

And I don't understand how grinding has anything to do with what I said on purpose. You are driven by something whether it be conceit, like stated by the Crestfallen Merchant, or any number of reasons you continue through dark souls.

Zero evidence that Manus came into contact with the Abyss 


?? I have no idea where you're getting all your lore info or how you go about interpreting it but Manus is the FATHER of the abyss, it emanates FROM HIM. The Abyss is the power of the Dark Soul. Life drain is the attempt to reform as much of the Dark Soul as possible. Dark doesn't 'devour' itself, because it is nothingness.. that is the literal definition of Abyss. The whole point is to destroy everything so that none of it remains, 'dark' doesn't exist anymore at that point because there is no disparity to classify something as dark.

Perhaps a human soul is closer to matter in its humanity."--Dark Orb/Bead 


i.e. physical matter as the first part of the full DB description would describe it.. Without human nature, the desire to 'own' something, we lack any desire of manifestation from our Souls PoV. Our Desires and purposes is what shapes the physical world, we're closer to physical matter in our humanity/human nature. Physical matter as in 'an object' Having no actual free will just the illusion of it.

I say reread my posts more carefully and do a bit more digging. I have viewed all the cut content I am not equating Man to Dark as much as I mean Humanity. As not all humans even became undead, only the more powerful Dark Soul shards.

 However I agree humanity and the soul are different I think that it's a rhetorical question on the description. "The mysteries of souls, crystals, and the sorceries are deeply intertwined." --CSS. As the Everlasting Dragons and Pygmys did exist as the original Life of the Soul, and Dragons being the keepers of the primordial crystal.

On that note, Primordial is more than a suggestion it literally means the first of something, Kaathe says himself the pygmy is the progenitor of man, and Chester subsequently refers to Manus as Primordial man, The first of Man. What does not connect about that?

Also the firekeepers are not human, they are physical manifestations of the bonfires, the point of which is to surrogate humanty and dampen the influence of The Dark. The firekeeper soul is eternally gnawed on my surrogated humanities