AsagiMakai wrote: But what makes someone hollow is when an Undead has no purpose. They've lost the will to go on. At least that's how I've understood it. I could very well be wrong.
The Chosen Undead has the will to defeat Gwyn. NPC's hollow when you buy all their spells. Like Reah. She has no purpose and she goes hollow.
Uh.... Reah storyline has 2 ends, as far as I have seen. One, she gets killed by Petrus in Undead Church. Two, the 6-eyed channelers capture her and haul her off to the Archive Prison, where in preparation for being turned to a Picasa, she goes hollow during the wait. Also, chosen undead invalidates your conclusion about no purpose.
During the first quarter of the game all he/she has to go on is - "ring the bells, and something will happen." Before that "pilgrimage to Lordran". How is that a purpose? You should see all the people play Dark Souls with CE and in the end go like "wtf happened?"
AsagiMakai wrote: I've also always thought that humanity is something that takes a strong will to keep. Artorias had a strong will (evidence by the Wolf Ring) but in the cut dialogue Artorias says himself that "you are strong, surely you are more pure then dark." Which can be taken a number of ways. I see it that Artorias believes you can traverse the Abyss and you won't become corrupted like himself, "You have a stronger will then I" Is what I think he means. So with that being said I think the Chosen Undead just has an extremely strong will to go on, even if he loses all his humanity and becomes a raisin. You press on and on and on till you reach your goal. But the Abyss is another story from Humanity.
Listen to the video again - when he says "you" he means all humans. It's kind of weird to call someone you just met "pure dark". Also - theory time - I think that all non-humans can get badly warped by humanity just by contact with it, whereas in case of humans it is a curious dual relationship.
Even more odd, Fire Keepers have no inherent humanity - all of it is tied to their (artificial?) soul. I tested this with Dark Hand on Darkmoon Knightess (Anor Londo)... and yep, no humanity. The gods and their creations have an aversion to humanity - as if only in its absence can one be pure (checked Oswald - no humanity, Queelana - no humanity, and goes on). Tie that into Artorias' words and a rather disturbing conclusion appears.
Also, Abyss and Humanity are probably not separate (look at Manus and the Oolacile Abyss).
AsagiMakai wrote: The Abyss warps all that it touches. Not one person we know of in game that has come into contact with the Abyss and remained sane/alive/mutated. Manus has obviously been warped and degenerated by it, the Oolacile residents and Artorias are all walking proof. Like people have said Manus could have been the Pygmy. And when the Dark Soul corrupted his mind, the Primordial Serpents saw an opportunity. Most likely Kaathe. Who is indirectly responsible for many events in the game. Maybe when Kaathe says "Our lord hath returns't" he knows the Abyss may warp us into Manus V2. Basically making the spread of the Abyss unstoppable. Kaathe has manipulated everyone he comes into contact with. The Four Kings, the Darkwraiths, Oolacile. I highly doubt Kaathe gives 2 damns about The Chosen Undead. But he does recognize his will. That's how I see it.
Maybe Humanity is a form of the Abyss? Kaathe does want the Darkwraiths to obtain humanity. The more humanity you have, the stronger the Abyss' spread becomes maybe?
Zero evidence that Manus came into contact with the Abyss - his humanity, driven mad by the Oolacile residents, spawned one.
Btw, I don't think Kaathe was lying when he said - "they failed me, each and every one of them."
My take - Kaathe is searching for the Dark Lord. The Dark Lord uses Lifedrain as his signature tool. Kaathe gives potential candidates Lifedrain - and here is the catch.
By its nature Lifedrain requires absorbing humanity from others to fuel your powers. So for a Darkwraith to maintain sanity, he must learn to dance between overkill and necessity - basically not become power-hungry and start viewing humans as food. The Four Kings didn't do that - their chief trait was megalomania, and their Knights followed them, thus obtaining great power over short time, but failing the test utterly, and promoting devouring dark (oolacile abyss) instead of true dark (what Kaathe hopes the Dark Lord will bring about).
And yes there is a high chance that the Dark Lord may become a Manus 2.0, but I think it is limited. Look at the Darkwraith mask description - only"the most ancient of Darkwraiths had their masks fuse to their faces". Basically right there, written that humans are not susceptible to Dark unless it is a full on corrupting force(manus).
Oh, and you are correct about Humanity having connections to the Abyss, but it also has connections to Chaos, the flame of life itself. Raises questions...
Undiscovery wrote:Humans are the bequeathed manifestation of the Dark Soul
Intro to the game. Humans were there before the Fire.
Undiscovery wrote: Man/Dark is the only power able to defeat the Gods/Light, and will inevitably destroy even itself. So what choice is right? What will benefit man? Man only has one choice; destruction. "The will feels envy, or perhaps love, and despite the inevitable trite and tragic ending, the will sees no alternative, and is driven madly towards its target..."--Pursuers
Darkstalker Kaathe knew and understood this, that Mankind was not a wielder of fate but a weapon. And so Man is used to overthrow the Gods and bring power back to the Serpants, leaving man to it's self-destructive fate... "Perhaps a human soul is closer to matter in its humanity."--Dark Orb/Bead
Where do you get the "restore power to the serpents" part? Chain of power was Dragons -> Gods -> Dark Lord. And you are equating man to dark... give this a listen. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=upzLAJhtnvk
The Pursuers spell description is describing humans' nature, true, but destruction is not necessarily the end result, especially since Dark cannot consume itself.
Btw I have no idea of your usage of, Perhaps a human soul is closer to matter in its humanity."--Dark Orb/Bead
- in what context did you take the word "matter"?
Undiscovery wrote:From Soft was very poetic and philosophical with how they tied in the human identity to this game. We don't have power, we've never had power, we will never acquire power, we ARE power. A weapon. And our fleeting will gives us the illusion of purpose, and without the illusion of purpose, we go hollow; our true form. Powerless Pygmy's of Pure Dark and no mind of our own to call sane...
"If the soul is the source of all life, then what distinguishes the humanity we hold within ourselves?"
Even when the humanity counter is 0 in the game, or the undead is in hollow form(not semi-hollow, simply hollow form) the chosen undead can function perfectly. (look at all em sl1 runs) Thus I would argue that humanity and soul are separate, especially since humans existed before the fire.
Undiscovery wrote:Gough tells you that the 'Abyss Emanates from Manus Himself.' Hence his name the Father of the Abyss. Like Gwyn, Nito, and Quel (That's what I like to call the Witch of Izalith) they remained the most powerful fragment of their lord souls even after dispersing much of their power. Manus contains the largest fragment of the Dark Soul, the Undead Chosen being second. When the Dark Soul is complete it will devour everything but the serpents who manipulate it. When you become the Dark Lord the Abyss will likely emanate from you as well.
Ah, so many assumptions
Firstly, the Lord Souls are not fragmented... possessing them grants power, but the only one who did fragment his soul was Gwyn, and he still had his own soul left. Secondly, Manus being the Pygmy is a matter of debate. He is primordial man - think primordial crystal, primordial dragons, serpents... Anything with that prefix immediately hearkens back to pre-Advent of FIre.
Undiscovery wrote:Kaathe and Frampt, I believe, are represented by the Covetous Serpent Rings.
"The serpent is an imperfect dragon and symbol of the Undead. Its habit of devouring prey
even larger than itself has led to an association of gluttony."
They are both Covetous and rob you of your fate.
Again, catch me up. I fail to see connection in "devouring"... Frampt was licking boots. Kaathe was in the Abyss. Same goes for "rob you of your fate"
Undiscovery wrote:The trigger for the Human Weapon is Purpose, that's is what Kaathe and Frampt give the Chosen Undead. Just tell the dark it'll be seen if does something, it will feel envy, or love and despite the trite and tragic ending sees no alternative and is driven madly towards its target...
Case Closed, The Serpents did it!
Do you grind? If you do, then you would know this statement does not hold true. Dark Souls is only one conclusion, but it's because there can be no other.