Anime General Discussion

Serious_Much wrote:To be Sci-fi is any kind of fantasy that is in a futuristic/space setting. By definition for me since it is a) a fantasy and b) set in space to be a sci fi..

Been a while since I seen a marching band competition...anyway where were we?

Oh yeah, this right here. I agree with it.

If anything, Tolvo, it sounds to me almost like you're automatically putting any unrealistic fiction under the general category of "fantasy." If the main source of a fantasy is futuristic technology that is usually enough for most people to qualify it as a Science Fiction, since the fiction is in the fantastic science on display. It sounds like you're hanging too much weight on the presence of something like the Force in Star Wars and that it's inclusion discredits any and all other qualifying themes present in the series. The Force is one appealing aspect of the story, but the other ones are things like swords made of lasers, space stations the size of planets, aliens, space dogfights fought with lasers, and sentient robots. A lot more fantastic science and tech on display than the "magic" of the Force.

Because that is what fantasy is, something fantastical especially magic. When it is a major part of the plot, such as in Star Wars, it become a part of the genre. That is by definition what fantasy is. There are Star Wars stories that do not focus on the Force and those stories would be considered science fiction, but as is Star Wars is a Space Epic Opera, a Sci-Fi Fantasy Adventure series mainly.

Science Fiction also is supposed to be realistic, a view of Science that is fictional but reasonably possible. It is why Sci-Fi and fantasy clash, Star Wars is actually bridging that gap due to their use of hard science in some elements like blasters, but in regards to the Death Star things are quite ridiculous.

Something like Ghost in the Shell is science fiction. Cybernetics, cloning, organ replacements, advanced AI's, incredible computers, all reasonable.

Giant space stations with death lasers and the ability to move faster than light being destroyed by a single missile, not really reasonable. Thus Star Wars is more so fantasy.

Looping this back around to anime and to also try and gain some perspective on where you're coming from, you mentioned Evangelion earlier. What would you classify that as?

I'd probably call it Science Fantasy, since advanced technology is a major point of it but there are clear fantasy elements like magical creatures, religious elements(Not as in religion is just fantasy, but the concept of gods and angels is considered to be fantasy, see any fantasy series), alternative worlds, rebirth, etc.  It is clearly fantasy with a sci fi flair.  Neon Genesis is a series I'd probably enjoy a lot more frankly without the aspect of the main characters being teenagers.

EDIT: Also for reference another series with Sci-fi elements, Cowboy Bebop, I wouldn't call just a Sci-Fi. I'd call it a Sci-Fi Noir leaning more towards the Noir side.

Okay, I'm still a little confused. Is something like sci-fi noir not still technically sci-fi?

And what about when something like Evangelion establishes a fantasy element in a non-fantasy or non-magical way? Within Eva's universe there is no real magic to the angels. They're beings with understood and studied origins, biology, and unique defining characteristics. They have religious symbolism, to be sure, but they operate within definable, understandable, and even controllable limitations. How is this approach so much different from, say, the way Steins;Gate offers its interpretation of time travel?

The angels of Neon Genesis are powerful demi-god-like figures that are capable of shape shifting, teleporting, creating energy shields, min-control, flight, etc.  There are no real rules to what they can do, they would be considered very fantastical and magical in origin due to their many abilities that have no real explanation aside from "They're angels."  

There is a difference between just science fiction, and science fiction fantasy.  As I was saying, all of what was listed in your article was some sort of fantasy.  Science fantasy, mystery fantasy, etc.  There wasn't just mystery, just science fiction.  That is a problem with the anime genre in general, it is overly cliche and often uses the same old genre over and over again, fantasy being a prime one.  That's not to say other forms of media don't use such ideas, the movie industry currently is full of incredibly typical things, but they do vary it up just a bit by using a lot of genres singularly.  Many movies don't really overlap, you go to see a Fantasy film, or a Sci-Fi film, or a Horror film.  With anime though, in general when you watch anything fantasy will be mixed in somehow.  Star Wars does this too and I actually wish there were more stories without the Jedi and Sith, no matter the event somehow a Dark Jedi or Jedi will get mixed up and they'll become more important than everyone else.  I think if anime branched away from fantasy more so you'd possibly see people considering it less generic as a whole.

EDIT: It isn't even all that crazy. For example, there is a lot of Science Fantasy in anime. Want to mix it up? Sci-Fi mystery. A show about a detective in the year 3041 who goes from planet to planet solving mysteries, while the technology helps him it is his genius mind that really aids him in catching his culprits. A sort of Sci-Fi Sherlock Holmes, maybe it has been done in which case I might check that out because that sounds awesome, but by mixing genres in less typical ways things could really improve.

With as much as you must trust my opinion by now on analyzing genres, if you want a sci-fi mystery I did mention Steins;Gate earlier. A small-time garage scientist stumbles across the process to make a time machine and upon it's first (accidental) use finds himself thrown into a fully completed stable time loop with people much more powerful than him after the technology. The show spends almost all of its time trying to understand the details behind the effects and consequences of time travel while simultaneously trying to figure out just what events were set in motion now that they're caught in the middle of a potential paradox.

It's hard to describe how pressing the loop is, but you know how most shows that try time travel just show them go through one iteration of the loop normally and they realize they're in a loop when it resets for the first time? Steins;Gate never does that and rather sets all the possible loops in motion off-screen with the mystery being trying to find out just which loop they're in. Even outside of anime, it's the best exploration of the concept of time travel I've ever experienced.

Then that actually sounds like something interesting and original, perhaps I might not enjoy it since even cool concepts can be bad or end up not being my cup of tea.  But there is potential in the idea and it sounds fresh enough.  That sort of story has been done before, but it isn't really common these days nor can I think of an anime that has done it.  

Though, you didn't mention that one in your article.  It would do you some good to in the future reference more of the fresh ones.  Cowboy Bebop for example isn't really confined to the anime culture, as such anyone can get a grasp of it and readily understand it.  It's a show about bounty hunters dealing with criminals in the near future.  When you want to show off that there is variety and that school anime aren't just all the same try to list off some that aren't just the same, though school based anime stories are possibly the worst of the worst so I wouldn't try to defend them so much.  There are a few good ones like Sakigake Otokojuto which is not fantastical and is a Comedy Action series that is intentionally dumb and a parody.

EDIT: Aim for the Ace is another example, it actually is a teen drama series, but it is all about a girl in highschool trying to become a great tennis player. So it is a bit of Drama and Sports. Since tennis is actually very important to the show and games are frequently featured, it is a sports/drama show.

Cowboy Bebop is a tough one to try and work into an article about High School anime, and while I personally didn't really get into it I more than understand it's availability to the "non-initiated" (I need a better term for "people not already into anime").

I intentionally avoided comedies or dramas that didn't have something more going for it besides the comedy or drama, which I realize now resulted in the abundance of shows with fantasy as a subgenre.  Even with something as beautiful as Clannad or silly as Seitokai Yakuindono or Lucky Star, you can't describe those shows without it sounding like a generic school life series and just say "but they're really emotional/funny so it's okay that they don't do much beyond showing them in High School."

I considered putting Prince of Tennis on the list, but seeing as I never actually finished the series (I dropped it around episode 100) and it's been at least a year since I left it I couldn't really feel right about trying to accurately assess it.  Though I can say with that last series in your edit that if you replace "tennis" with "Go" and "Sports" with "Games" and you just word for word described Hikaru no Go, which for emphasis, I also included on the list

Hikaru no Go was just a link in your article, it wasn't described at all.

I think in general you should have gone for Anime as a whole being valid, rather than just Highschool shows. Because in all honesty when I hear about an Anime taking place in a school it better get my damn attention, my blood boils when I see an anime girl late for school running with food in her mouth. It also is a bit funny that I can sort of analyze anime, since I guess while I generally dislike it I've still watched a good deal of them.

Tolvo wrote:Hikaru no Go was just a link in your article, it wasn't described at all.  

You win this round...

Tolvo wrote:I think in general you should have gone for Anime as a whole being valid, rather than just Highschool shows.

There's a reason the words "Part 1" are in the title

What I mean is, this article was all about settings and how they can be used. However, the Highschool setting is one of the most cliche settings in anime, that and some Fantasy Feudal Era Japan, hero from the future needed in the past(Dog Days, Inuyasha) style setting which is easily contender for containing the most schlock. Going with the Sci-Fi setting, you could go with Gundam, and many other well established series that can be taken more seriously. Mystery, you have detective Conan, I think going with High School series was one of the worst possible settings to use for what you were trying to convey.

And here we are again talking about genre and setting as if they were one and the same...

They are often really closely linked in regards to some. Sci-fi for example requires very specific sorts of settings unless you go with time travel. So it's often hard to talk about one without mentioning the other.

Tolvo wrote:They are often really closely linked in regards to some. Sci-fi for example requires very specific sorts of settings unless you go with time travel.  So it's often hard to talk about one without mentioning the other.  

Reaperfan wrote:Story and setting are connected, but they don’t define one another. A story can be set in high school, but be about anything it wants to be. Imagine saying “I don’t like science fiction because it’s always just about people in space.” That’s how much you’re limiting yourself from experiencing a whole culture of shows when dismissing high school in anime.

^The conclusion and ultimate thesis of my entire article, copy/pasted straight from the last paragraph

Then why was it that nearly every anime except one that you listed also happened to be fantasy?

Because they were all different kinds of fantasy.  Even if you want to qualify Accel World as a fantasy, it's an entirely different experience from the fantasy offered by Another or Haruhi.  I'll admit now that my list could've used more variety, but I still don't feel I offered a genuine lack of variety either as none of those shows offer the same kind of experience despite involving fantasy elements.

EDIT: 3 more posts...3 more posts... Wait, how long have I been on these forums?

Most of them involved teenagers in a school with a fantasy life to deal with, Haruhi being one of the less fantastical ones and more school oriented ones. When so many are, "There are kids in school, but there is something super special about them or their school, and they deal with it." One, the time travel one, is much more interesting since the focus is on them having the skills to create something and travel through time. Every single other one people just were special. Born a Prince, Born a God, four of them, the majority listed, are like this. To me with the descriptions available the stories mostly don't sound very different from each other.

Reaperfan wrote:EDIT:  3 more posts...3 more posts...  Wait, how long have I been on these forums?

If I'm allowed in a word... Damn Reaps, you one slowass muthatrucka!

If I can do a quick comparison, ever seen an Asylum film? They have films of different genres, Sci-Fi, Horror, Creature Feature, Fantasy, etc. They make rip offs of various films, but their films have vastly different settings and even genres. What do most of them have in common? "There's a conflict that needs a resolution, he's the only man for the job but he doesn't wish to do it. After discovering though that conflict involves his estranged daughter/ex-wife, he realizes he must deal with conflict to save them." That is the issue with those School Shows, they might have different genres, even different settings being in the past, future, different kinds of schools, but their most basic parts are all incredibly similar.

Tolvo wrote:Most of them involved teenagers in a school with a fantasy life to deal with, Haruhi being one of the less fantastical ones and more school oriented ones.  When so many are, "There are kids in school, but there is something super special about them or their school, and they deal with it."  One, the time travel one, is much more interesting since the focus is on them having the skills to create something and travel through time.  Every single other one people just were special.  Born a Prince, Born a God, four of them, the majority listed, are like this.  To me with the descriptions available the stories mostly don't sound very different from each other.

Steins;Gate isn't a high school anime.  The characters are either in or graduated from college.

And you finally gave me a simple enough explanation to understand your problem with the examples chosen.  I will take this observation into account and use it to attempt to make future, similar endeavors more accommodating.  Whether those attempts will be successful remains to be seen, however

WhatDoesThePendantDo? wrote:If I'm allowed in a word... Damn Reaps, you one slowass muthatrucka!

You've likely seen me use it before, but I really do believe these are words to live by:

I also just said something on the previous page which may help, I used everyone's favorite film company, The Asylum.

By the way, while I do think most of anime is garbage, I do hope that it one days gets its "Citizen Kane" and is considered a serious art form. Though at the same time, western cartoons haven't really reached that point yet either.

But if we have more things like Cat Soup, which is great, maybe people will take it more seriously.

Tolvo watches more anime than he lets on...

Tolvo wrote:I also just said something on the previous page which may help, I used everyone's favorite film company, The Asylum.  

By the way, while I do think most of anime is garbage, I do hope that it one days gets its "Citizen Kane" and is considered a serious art form.  Though at the same time, western cartoons haven't really reached that point yet either.

I saw your post that got bottom-paged, don't worry

Anime doesn't really need a "Citizen Kane" though as it's already a well-established and respected medium, if only in the East.  In terms of a "Citizen Kane" for the West, that will have to be something that breaks our "animation is only for kids' shows" cultural bias.  Basically, animation as a whole needs its "Citizen Kane" over here before anime can even think about standing a chance.  Though I suppose it's not entirely impossible that the "Citizen Kane of animation" ends up being an anime, but I feel it's unlikely.  There's already enough cultural differences that make anime hard to approach for a general western audience, even amongst animation enthusiasts.  It's why we've been having this entire conversation

EDIT: I AM NO LONGER MERELY REVIVED!!! I AM NOW A...Compulsory Poster? That sounds less awesome.

Well I've got to ask, in the East do they consider Western cartoons to be serious things?

EDIT: Also you guys totally should watch Cat Soup, it's just one episode which is on youtube in four parts. It's a very fascinating thing, created by a man that had lost his wife. He basically tried to tell everything about her life and how important she was to him in Cat Soup. He hand drew all of it personally, published it, wrote it himself. It is essentially a love letter to his dead wife.