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    Well Honor Is Out the Door

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    Post by ninjashifty Sat Aug 17, 2013 9:38 pm

    Been doing some invading and I've found, it's everyone for themselves. I've watched two guys fight and didn't interfere while invading. One guy kept using divine blessings, against another guys, so I decided to intervene. We both killed the invader only for the host to start using divine blessings. So I've decided, there are no fair fights. It's kill or be killed. No bowing anymore, just suck the sharp end of my sword or spear.

    Any thoughts?
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    Post by Soul of Stray Demon Sat Aug 17, 2013 9:42 pm

    Honor, you want honor? No matter what you want from dark souls pvp, you won't always get it. Sometimes people want a form of "etiquette" while others are more loose. People play it their way, and if you expect some sort of rules, the best way is to arrange a match.

    And Honestly, I've done both, I've done gesture backstabs and complete "fair" fights with random strangers, they both have their own enjoyment off of it, and to expect everyone to have the same playstyle is just plain insane. 

    (Just to make this clear, that is not directed at you, but at everyone who complains about honor duels, or the lack of.)
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    Post by GrinTwist Sun Aug 18, 2013 12:53 am

    ninjashifty wrote:Been doing some invading and I've found, it's everyone for themselves. I've watched two guys fight and didn't interfere while invading. One guy kept using divine blessings, against another guys, so I decided to intervene. We both killed the invader only for the host to start using divine blessings. So I've decided, there are no fair fights. It's kill or be killed. No bowing anymore, just suck the sharp end of my sword or spear.

    Any thoughts?
    If you want an honorable duel I would suggest using the RSS not invading. Invading is the best way not to get an honorable duel, granted some hosts use the dried finger in order to get invaders but that isn't always the case. There is always the chance that you're invading someone that doesn't want to be invaded and they'll probably want you out of their game by any means necessary.

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    Post by TheMeInTeam Sun Aug 18, 2013 1:09 am

    My thoughts are that one should play how they want, but be wary that others might not play that way.
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    Post by Acarnatia Sun Aug 18, 2013 2:11 am

    I'm with nome on this one. I play by my own ethics and generally aim to not expect others to play by them. I consider hacking/glitching inexcusable, though, as do I bowing, then backstabing the other person when they bow.
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    Post by SadPanda Sun Aug 18, 2013 2:33 am

    Welcome to 2013, where a quick Google search of "dark souls save editor" will bring up hundreds of download links.
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    Post by Mental Gear Sun Aug 18, 2013 2:36 am

    Why does anyone think an 'invasion' calls for honorable behaviour? If someone invades my world I have to assume he will try to kill my char, so normally one wouldn't go thinking: Oh what a nice chap, come on let's be friends. No, he invades, so he will be considered the enemy. I wish for a good fight but I don't expect him to have the same standards as me. So the way I understand it the nature of an invasion is a hostile act in itself and therefore does not call for fair or honorable behaviour, altough it can if both players agree.
    Remember, you invade the other players world unasked so expect aggressive, even unfair behaviour to stay alive(like estus, blessings aso) or to get rid of you sometimes. For example if you invade on top of Sen's fortress where invaders pop up very close to the boss fog expect to get knocked off the ledge by me using force spell, because probably you'll disturb me getting summoned.
    You red evil invader ) Well Honor Is Out the Door 3378427106


    Last edited by Mental Gear on Sun Aug 18, 2013 2:41 am; edited 1 time in total
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    Post by SadPanda Sun Aug 18, 2013 2:39 am

    Mental Gear wrote:Why does anyone think an 'invasion' calls for honorable behaviour? If someone invades my world I have to assume he will try to kill my char, so normally one wouldn't go thinking: Oh what a nice chap, come on let's be friends. No, he invades, so he will be considered the enemy. I wish for a good fight but I don't expect him to have the same standards as me. So the way I understand it the nature of an invasion is a hostile act in itself and therefore does not call for fair or honorable behaviour, altough it can if both players agree.
    Remember, you invade the other players world unasked so expect aggressive, even unfair behaviour to stay alive(like estus, blessings aso) or to get rid of you sometimes. For example if you invade on top of Sen's fortress where invaders pop up very close to the boss fog expect of get knocked off the ledge by me using force spell, because probably you'll disturb me getting summoned.
    You red evil invader ) Well Honor Is Out the Door 3378427106
    Did you even read the OP?
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    Post by Mental Gear Sun Aug 18, 2013 2:43 am

    SadPanda wrote:
    Mental Gear wrote:Why does anyone think an 'invasion' calls for honorable behaviour? If someone invades my world I have to assume he will try to kill my char, so normally one wouldn't go thinking: Oh what a nice chap, come on let's be friends. No, he invades, so he will be considered the enemy. I wish for a good fight but I don't expect him to have the same standards as me. So the way I understand it the nature of an invasion is a hostile act in itself and therefore does not call for fair or honorable behaviour, altough it can if both players agree.
    Remember, you invade the other players world unasked so expect aggressive, even unfair behaviour to stay alive(like estus, blessings aso) or to get rid of you sometimes. For example if you invade on top of Sen's fortress where invaders pop up very close to the boss fog expect of get knocked off the ledge by me using force spell, because probably you'll disturb me getting summoned.
    You red evil invader ) Well Honor Is Out the Door 3378427106
    Did you even read the OP?
    Why is there a need to ask?
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    Post by SadPanda Sun Aug 18, 2013 2:47 am

    Mental Gear wrote:Why is there a need to ask?
    So do you use divine blessings when you lose too?
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    Post by Mental Gear Sun Aug 18, 2013 3:11 am

    Well if you have to question my conviction: Sportsmanship is what I like, so I fight and die by this rule, no heal, never bs, no humanity, no blessings, no mushrooms, no indictment, no whining messages after I lost, good karma. wave
    I see you're not willing to understand my reasoning/viewpoint. 
    I talked about how I can understand how the invaded player sometimes will use 'unfair' methods(ganking, blessings, whatever) just to save his hide and how there are moments in the game when an invasion is kind of inconvenient and said invaded player wants to get rid of the invader in a fast and cheap way. Just because I tolerate or try to understand the reasoning behind such behaviour does not mean I pop divine blessings.
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    Post by Hart Sun Aug 18, 2013 3:14 am

    Chill guys, before this disagreement takes over OP's thread.

    @ Mental Gear, while it might not have been your intent, your post could be misinterperated as an attack on the OP; implying that the lack of etiquette he is experiencing in PVP is solely his fault, due to being an invader. This is understandable, but IMO he was simply using his latest PVP experience (invading) as an example to highlight the trend of players resorting to cheap tactics, rather than complaining about this specific occasion.
    And the tone of your post makes it appear as though you're suggesting the OP essentially shuts up and stops complaining since they're bringing it on themselves.

    @ Panda, not sure why you took issue with Mental's post but dragging it out is why these discussions on PVP etiquette etc. are always locked. I've got no problem with anything you guys have said but others, and more importantly mods, will.
    So just for the sake of OP's thread, could you drop it before someone gets offended/offensive and the topic becomes yet another succession of flaming.


    I know, white knight moral*** alert, but nothings gonna come of it and in the end you'll both have wasted time on nothing of any real value (the arguing, not sharing your opinions on the topic).

    I've uprepped your post Panda, because I personally see that downrep as unwarranted.
    But please, limit your responses to the issue of the thread instead of antagonizing the situation.

    EDIT: Wrote this before your latest post Mental, but I've decided to still post it since these threads get people hot under the collar.

    on the topic of honor:


    Last edited by Hart on Sun Aug 18, 2013 3:27 am; edited 1 time in total
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    Post by Serious_Much Sun Aug 18, 2013 3:26 am

    In fairness honour has gone downhill, it's really noticeable since I first started pvping so many less people fight with any code.

    When I first started pvping it didn't matter what method of invasion you did- the thing that made it a duel was bowing. Evidently now that's gone out of fashion and bowing doesn't mean jack anymore

    Anyway this is a pvp discussion so I'm moving it to the appropriate section


    Last edited by Serious_Much on Sun Aug 18, 2013 3:41 am; edited 1 time in total
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    Post by SadPanda Sun Aug 18, 2013 3:36 am

    Mental Gear wrote:Well if you have to question my conviction: Sportsmanship is what I like, so I fight and die by this rule, no heal, never bs, no humanity, no blessings, no mushrooms, no indictment, no whining messages after I lost, good karma. wave
    I see you're not willing to understand my reasoning/viewpoint. 
    I talked about how I can understand how the invaded player sometimes will use 'unfair' methods(ganking, blessings, whatever) just to save his hide and how there are moments in the game when an invasion is kind of inconvenient and said invaded player wants to get rid of the invader in a fast and cheap way. Just because I tolerate or try to understand the reasoning behind such behaviour does not mean I pop divine blessings.
    So you're saying 3 divine spamming forest gankers are "fair" because it's their world? No, that's bull****. I'm fine with Estus, TWoP, Hornet ring, whatever. But never, and I mean never are modded items fair or ok. Sure they could have gotten then legitimately, but come on, we all know how people get them. Hell, I have blessings just so I have enough time to dashboard. Don't play by modders' rules.
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    Post by Dutchy Sun Aug 18, 2013 4:50 am

     An Argument ensues out of a misunderstood idea, and all parties firmly agreeing or disagreeing with the idea.
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    Post by reim0027 Mon Aug 19, 2013 1:04 am

    "Honor" is situational.

    Consider these situations:

    Situation A: someone invades your world while you are questing. You are fighting for your life. You start to spam estus, run away, look for summons, hide around corners, anything you can do to stay alive. You manage to kill your invader. Fair game IMO. No lack of honor there.

    Situation B: someone invades your world while you are camping. You have a phantom there, at the spawn point and gank right away. Is the invader supposed to bow, allow you to prepare to fight, not heal, etc?

    Situation C: You invade the forest as a Catbro. The host is fighting another Catbro. What you just missed (before you spawned) is your fellow Blue just killed off 2 of that host's ganking buddies, and the host is running to summon more. Is it dishonorable to jump in and help your your blue Bud?

    Situation D: Similar to C. This time, what you don't see is the other phantom, wearing a fog ring just waiting for your fellow catbro to get in casting range.

    Obviously, things are quite different if you are RSS or invading into a known PvP hotspot. Personally, if I am there and one of the other players starts spamming DBs, Estus, or Humanity, I jump in and attack them (host or red). I actually come there to fight, not to wait 30 minutes until they run out of humanity. Am I being dishonorable?

    Last thing - when I'm PvPing in known hotspots, most of my duels are legit (IMO). Bow, buff, grass, fight, minimal to no heals, winner bows.
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    Post by Xero Mon Aug 19, 2013 3:45 am

    Why would it be ok to chug if you get invaded while questing? I am guessing most of you guys invade around level 100 and most people that you invade are actually pvpers. So why would they chug? If they die they just go back to the bonfire. You could say they are afraid of losing their souls but how likely is it for a level 100 pvp build to actually die in pve?
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    Post by Serious_Much Mon Aug 19, 2013 3:48 am

    I consider questing a different ball game- you don't want to pvp hence you don't need to bind yourself by the rules you usually have.

    I also consider 3v1s by questers to not be ganking because they don't wish to have pvp and didn't intend to farm invaders
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    Post by Xero Mon Aug 19, 2013 3:55 am

    But what if its just the host? You can mostly tell if its someones new by their equipment. If they are using Dingy robe and havels leggings while flipping around and they start chugging what do you do?
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    Post by reim0027 Mon Aug 19, 2013 4:06 am

    True questers have no rules, IMO. They can fight, or run, or hide, any way they want. True questers are people who are there for PvE. When I'm making a build, I don't want to get invaded. I'll summon people or speedrun to the boss. It is up to the invader to kill me. I'm not going to give him any help.
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    Post by AnCapaillMor Mon Aug 19, 2013 5:03 am

    Definately, i think the only rule they should have is do whatever it takes to get to the boss. I see a lot of so called ganking vids and clearly it's questers going for the boss, i'll try and fight fairly myself but i can understand most not doing it. Forest, start of ollacille town and stat of kiln would be ganker central, anywhere else they're questing the vast majority of the time.

    It boils down to this people play the game for different reasons, some for pve, some for honour pvp, some to troll, some to help, you can't expect everyone to drop everything and play the way you want to play.
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    Post by sparkly-twinkly-lizard Mon Aug 19, 2013 3:34 pm

    sadly rss aren't a guarantee of honorable fights either, they're prime targets for gankers now.
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    Post by Hawkins172 Sun Aug 25, 2013 11:14 am

    i don't see why anyone would expect honour in a game. suit yourself if you bow or not. i do bow most of the times(if i get the chance) but thats for my own sense of honour not because i expect anyone else to have a sense of honour.
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    Post by Leet Sun Aug 25, 2013 6:16 pm

    Hawkins172 wrote:i don't see why anyone would expect honour in a game. suit yourself if you bow or not. i do bow most of the times(if i get the chance) but thats for my own sense of honour not because i expect anyone else to have a sense of honour.
    If you don't expect honor out of anyone else, why would you bow? I would just BS you as your bowing. But i have play with "honor" so i bow back. If i go somewhere like the forest where i know no one cares about that i won't bow once, because i'll just regret it.
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    Post by Soul of Stray Demon Sun Aug 25, 2013 6:20 pm

    I disagree, I've had many times in the forest where not only will they bow, but a catbro may actually not fight till I finish the current one.

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