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    Post by DoughGuy on Sun Apr 22, 2012 8:38 pm

    See I think those questions are best answered if the first firekeeper created Nito. She shaped him around the lord soul and commanded him to fight the dragons. However the dragons were the antithesis of the lord soul at the time so it makes sense for him to fight the dragons no matter who made him.

    Also please stop before this gets moved to off topic.


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    Post by Tolvo on Sun Apr 22, 2012 8:39 pm

    Nito appears to want to create his own group of the dead, the dragons would more than likely not wish for anything that can challenge them to stand. So, it could be reasoned that he would want them out of the way, so that he could spread his essence of death. As I said he's sort of the freak of nature it seems, so while the other lord souls empowered and maybe corrupted others over time, they sort of created an entirely new consciousness in regards to him.
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    Post by Shkar on Sun Apr 22, 2012 9:02 pm

    DoughGuy wrote:See I think those questions are best answered if the
    first firekeeper created Nito. She shaped him around the lord soul and
    commanded him to fight the dragons. However the dragons were the
    antithesis of the lord soul at the time so it makes sense for him to
    fight the dragons no matter who made him.

    Also please stop before this gets moved to off topic.

    I had been joking about not stopping, but I easily understand the confusion on that aspect.

    Now, the first firekeeper, believed to be Velka. Was she the FIRST to
    find the flame, did she CREATE the flame, or is she an aspect of the
    flame? If the last one, is she "superior" even to the gods who got the
    Lord Souls from the flame? Did she GIVE them those souls?



    Tolvo wrote:Nito appears to want to create his own group of the dead, the dragons would more than likely not wish for anything that can challenge them to stand. So, it could be reasoned that he would want them out of the way, so that he could spread his essence of death. As I said he's sort of the freak of nature it seems, so while the other lord souls empowered and maybe corrupted others over time, they sort of created an entirely new consciousness in regards to him.

    Hm, so the "birth of life" then. Would the "society of the dead" situation he is trying to create, would each dead being have a separate personality, or do you think it would be more of a hivemind? One mind, thousands of bodies.
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    Post by Tolvo on Sun Apr 22, 2012 9:04 pm

    The fact that you don't get kicked out of the Gravelords for killing Nito says to me that he is doing it purely to create a world that he prefers, so more than likely that they have separate minds. Pinwheel after all seems to have a different will than Nito, he also allows Leeroy around and some other characters. But I really can't say, too much of Nito is really a mystery.
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    Post by Shkar on Sun Apr 22, 2012 9:10 pm

    Tolvo wrote:The fact that you don't get kicked out of the Gravelords for killing Nito says to me that he is doing it purely to create a world that he prefers, so more than likely that they have separate minds. Pinwheel after all seems to have a different will than Nito, he also allows Leeroy around and some other characters. But I really can't say, too much of Nito is really a mystery.

    I think there may be a very real possibility that killing Nito played into his hands then. If the fire went out, there would be no life or death. So Nito, the "aspect of Death" would either cease to exist, or would become basically powerless.

    However, if the flame continues, the necromancers and pinwheels (There's probably more. ToG at least APPEARS massive.) could still go on to create a "world of the dead". For that matter, if they can reanimate the dead, who's to say a suitably powerful ritual couldn't bring Nito back (albeit weaker, due to the lack of a lord soul)?
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    Post by Tolvo on Sun Apr 22, 2012 9:13 pm

    Who's to say what is done with the Lordvessel if you link the flame? What if his servants could get it back and revive him through that, or if he already lives on in them, sort of like how the dark soul lives on through humanity. Nito might be one smart cookie, having basically a situation in which no matter what he doesn't lose anything more than a mass of bodies.

    It could also be as you said, he just doesn't care about his own existence. Maybe he understands only a cause, but not identity. In that regard Nito might not actually be totally sentient, which is so bizarre it kind of fits if you ask me.
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    Post by Shkar on Sun Apr 22, 2012 9:23 pm

    Tolvo wrote:Who's to say what is done with the Lordvessel if you link the flame? What if his servants could get it back and revive him through that, or if he already lives on in them, sort of like how the dark soul lives on through humanity. Nito might be one smart cookie, having basically a situation in which no matter what he doesn't lose anything more than a mass of bodies.

    It could also be as you said, he just doesn't care about his own existence. Maybe he understands only a cause, but not identity. In that regard Nito might not actually be totally sentient, which is so bizarre it kind of fits if you ask me.

    Sadly, as interesting as that idea is, it wasn't what I was going for. He is said to "silently oversee all death" (paraphrasing a bit here happy). To me, that screams planning, which requires thought (sentience). What I had been getting at, is Nito may have seen a lose-lose scenario. He either ceases to exist when the fire goes out, or he dies, the fire gets linked, and at least his cause can continue. Or he could be like a lich, and have a pathway back to "life". The Lord Souls strike me as being returned to the flame or sacrificed in order to allow passage there.

    Although, a thought occurs to me/ Gwyn resists fire, the Witch isn't fought typically, so has no weakness/resistances (can't assume anything), and Seath/$K's don't have a full Lord Soul. How come Nito, who has a full Lord Soul, the strongest "gift" from the first flame, is weak to fire? I would think that having your existance revolving around fire would at least allow you to not have a debilitating weakness to it.
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    Post by DoughGuy on Sun Apr 22, 2012 10:02 pm

    Isnt Gwyn weak to fire? I seem to remember that being said. I actually have the odd idea that Nito isnt doing anything. I posted a lot about it in a different thread but he general idea was "The dead do not do". Nito is just lying around watching the world pass by. He doesnt care what happens. That why the rogue pinwheel is allowed to function without retribtution. Thats why his covenant is reactive not active i.e. you sit around doing nothing waiting for something to happen. Thats why theres no penalty when you kill him. He is apathy given form. When Velka was around to command him in the dragon war he had orders to follow, he reacted and did nothing of his own accord. He's weak to fire because fire is constant change, it is the representation of movement and change, the exact opposite of him.


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    Post by DoughGuy on Mon Apr 23, 2012 10:40 pm

    Nito, first of the dead
    Spoiler:
    Nito, one of the four lords, a being with his own lord soul, overseeing death and disease. Let's start with his origins. There are currently 2 main theories of how Nito was born. The first is that Velka, or whoever the first firekeeper is, created Nito to be the God of Death. The other is that the lord soul literally created him, drawing the bodies together and granting it a sentience. Now in the artbook there are 2 side by side pictures of Nito. One with red eyes and a skeleton in the middle and a second with blue eyes lacking the central skeleton. What this tells us is although Nito is a collectivemass of skeletons there is a central skeleton that can be truly classified as Nito while the erst is for protection. Therefore I consider it more likely that Nito was this single skeleton touched by the lord soul, given "life" and formed his body around himself. I will present more proof of this further in.

    Now onto his motivations. Nito is odd in that he is the leas active force in Lordran. WhileSeath is out conquering and the BoC is spreading demons around Nito is quite happy to it down in his tomb and let events transpire. Viral theorized Nito wished to create an age of the dead however I do not think that is entirely true. There are 2 possible goals that nito has and they are tied to either of his beginnings.

    If Nito was created by Velka it is possible he is much like an puppet, that he only works when given orders. If so it means he will remain buried in lordran until his creator returns to give him a new goal to work for. This explain his lax attitude to the pinwheel stealing the rite and the lack of retribution for kiling him if you're in his covenant.

    Now if Nito created himself/the lord soul created him it is now different. Nito may not have a true sentience. The proof for this is in his servants. The minor necromancers animate small skeletons, driving them to kill the player then reviving them when they die. The pinwheels are theorized to control the giant skeletons. They cannot revive them but they irder them around. In the same way the lord soul/the central skeleton acts as the necromancer for Nito's body, animating and controlling it.
    Tolvo wrote:Who's to say what is done with the Lordvessel if you link
    the flame? What if his servants could get it back and revive him
    through that, or if he already lives on in them, sort of like how the
    dark soul lives on through humanity. Nito might be one smart cookie,
    having basically a situation in which no matter what he doesn't lose
    anything more than a mass of bodies.

    It could also be as you
    said, he just doesn't care about his own existence. Maybe he
    understands only a cause, but not identity. In that regard Nito might
    not actually be totally sentient, which is so bizarre it kind of fits if
    you ask me.
    In this case it is more likely that Nito is working towards his own agenda. Based off the infinitely spawning baby skeletons it can be seen that Nito wants to propogate the dead, creating millions. In this case its possible he was creating an age of the dead.


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    Post by Tolvo on Tue Apr 24, 2012 12:24 am

    So a little thing I noticed tonight while fighting Logan, if you force him to melee you while he's attacking you, he'll use a Scimitar. As well, he doesn't go hollow. Apparently this is common knowledge and I'm just a dumb, but thought I should mention it. As well, do you think we should do Paladin Leeroy?

    Another side note, does the white Seances Ring belong to havel? With that, why is it found on a maiden's body, if it belongs to the head bishop?
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    Post by DoughGuy on Tue Apr 24, 2012 1:11 am

    Hmmm, a scimitar is similar to the enchanted falchion you find in the book room mimic. Where did you hear he doesnt go hollow? Thats the first Im hearing of it.
    Apparently it did belong to Havel at one point.
    "A divine ring entrusted to the head bishop of the Way of White and apostle to Allfather Lloyd, uncle to Lord Gwyn.
    It grants additional attunement slots.
    The head bishop of the Way of White is the guardian of law and caste, and one of the great royals of Thorolund."I'm stumped for that one.

    We definetily need to do Leeroy. He was the first undead member of the WoW. He's important.


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    Post by Shkar on Tue Apr 24, 2012 1:15 am

    DoughGuy wrote:Hmmm, a scimitar is similar to the enchanted falchion you find in the book room mimic. Where did you hear he doesnt go hollow? Thats the first Im hearing of it.

    I believe it was mentioned in the art book interviews that Logan was actually trying to "make himself more like a dragon". I believe the consensus was something along the lines of immortality in human form.
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    Post by Tolvo on Tue Apr 24, 2012 1:15 am

    Well Havel is a Bishop, but the ring specifies the head bishop. It could be him, but it also could be someone else. An idea though, Havel seems to be a person of great faith, but attunement he wouldn't strike me as having for his Magic Barrier. So, maybe this was how he managed it?

    If you fight him in Seath's old room, he isn't hollow, he's human. He's just naked.

    I can actually do Leeroy in a bit, but it will make reference to Acidic's findings.
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    Post by DoughGuy on Tue Apr 24, 2012 1:21 am

    I cant remember Acidic's finding on leeroy but I havent done any research on him myself so thats fine.
    I think Logan is still hollow. Im pretty sure the NPCs are in human form even though they;re hollow. When i get home today Ill go talk to cresty to make him move to new londo and check whether he is human form or not.


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    Post by Tolvo on Tue Apr 24, 2012 1:23 am

    He's hollow, I always check. Solaire I haven't checked yet as it's a total *****. But I still have him alive on my Artorias build, so I can just start his question and talk to him until he goes hollow, hug him, and get a good look at his face.

    Crest Warrior-Hollow.
    Reah-Hollow
    Nico&Cow Man-Hollow
    Laurientus-Hollow
    Grig-Hollow
    Logan-Human. He stays in human form. If you tilt your camera you can clearly see his face.
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    Post by DoughGuy on Tue Apr 24, 2012 1:29 am

    Well I suppose it makes sense. You know maybe he sent himself insane. He wanted to emulate Seath,Seath is naked and insane. Can you check if he has eye or if he tore them out? I'm sure Solaire wont be hollow. he's just insane. Also do any of the hollow npc's talk? because if they dont that proves Solaire isnt hollow.


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    Post by Tolvo on Tue Apr 24, 2012 1:30 am

    I don't actually recall any of them speaking. Though they can still cast spells definitely. Miracles, Pyromancy, Sorcery.
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    Post by DoughGuy on Tue Apr 24, 2012 1:32 am

    So that means its possible that - if you can speak, you're not hollow. Is there anyone else we can apply that to?


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    Post by Tolvo on Tue Apr 24, 2012 1:34 am

    Havel doesn't speak, also I forgot to mention he has both of his eyes.

    Only two possible hollows I can think of definitely speak, the Undead Merchants. They're both either in the process of becoming, or are already hollow as you can tell by looking at them, and their glowing eyes. But, they can speak and are fairly aware, albeit crazy.
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    Post by DoughGuy on Tue Apr 24, 2012 1:36 am

    I believe the female merchant isnt actually hollow, shes just in the same state as the player. The male strikes me mor as insane than hollow. I think part of being hollow is uncontrollable agression/depression. Either they attack you without provocation or they ignore you unless you provoke them.


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    Post by Shkar on Tue Apr 24, 2012 1:36 am

    Tolvo wrote:Havel doesn't speak, also I forgot to mention he has both of his eyes.

    Only two possible hollows I can think of definitely speak, the Undead Merchants. They're both either in the process of becoming, or are already hollow as you can tell by looking at them, and their glowing eyes. But, they can speak and are fairly aware, albeit crazy.

    Perhaps they have some sort of partial immunity to the datk sign? I realize that sounds like a far fetched idea, but it's happened with real life diseases before, I believe.


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    Post by Tolvo on Tue Apr 24, 2012 1:44 am

    Well what I've thought is maybe more they're at an in between stage. Maybe their insanity has sort of given them, as mentioned, an immunity. Their ideals are completely illogical, but they might be allowing them to barely stay from being fully hollow, though if you look at their bodies they look completely hollow.

    Off to test Solaire.
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    Post by Shkar on Tue Apr 24, 2012 1:54 am

    Tolvo wrote:Well what I've thought is maybe more they're at an in between stage. Maybe their insanity has sort of given them, as mentioned, an immunity. Their ideals are completely illogical, but they might be allowing them to barely stay from being fully hollow, though if you look at their bodies they look completely hollow.

    Off to test Solaire.

    I could honestly see their insanity either preventing full hollowification, or the process of hollowification causing their insanity. Personally, however, I would think being on the verge of mindlessness would cause greater mental issues then a few delusions/habits.
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    Post by Tolvo on Tue Apr 24, 2012 3:45 am

    https://youtu.be/dnYCMXld8Uw

    Footage of Solaire's Face, and general movements of his. He's obviously human, as well he does have some facial hair.

    https://youtu.be/3FRa8JdOkNw

    Me killing Solaire while holding a camera with one hand, using a weapon my character cannot wield. I also show where to position yourself so that Solaire will just charge at you, then back off. This way you can check for yourself what it he looks like in better quality. Next time I'm going to kill the Maggot with Red Eyes first, and see if doing so frees him. You never know. Also Solaire is bald, clipped through his helm and snagged a pic.

    http://photobucket.com/darksoulslore

    Here's the top half of his face, while in the video you can only really see the bottom half. It's the upper left picture.
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    Post by DoughGuy on Tue Apr 24, 2012 4:24 am

    Okaty. Definetily human with the maggot driving him insane. I'll try to get Solaire and Logan done asap but uni might get in the way.


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