Understanding the Lore (Massive spoilers)

Unfortunately, the story has been pretty much spoiled for me by watching other people play. But, that doesn't mean I totally understand what's going on in the story. I'm nearly finished with my first play through and I know that there are two different endings...a good one and a bad one.


Massive Spoilers to follow, last warning.




Here is what I've been able to piece together, let me know if I get anything wrong. I'm just going to paraphrase much of this.


Long before the game started, it was the age of the everlasting dragons. Gwyn, with his lord buddies used the power of souls and the help of the traitor Seath to defeat these everlasting dragons to bring on the age of fire. The Pygmy also found a soul and passed it down his lineage with the hope that one day, someone would rise up to challenge Gwyn.

Between the war with the dragons and the start of the game, the age of fire started to fade, bringing darkness to the world. Demons started running free, and zombies started taking over entire cities. By the time the game starts, civilization has effective collapsed on itself.

The soul passed down by the pygmy became known as the darksign, which you are given at the start of the game. The darksign effectively prevents complete death and everyone that is found to have the darksign is locked up in the asylum by order of Gwyn/Gwyndolin. In fact, it can be assumed that all of the zombies in the Asylum have the dark sign (maybe that's why they keep respawning). "Once a generation, a chosen undead will rise up and challenge the world" (or whatever it says). Using the time distortion aspect of the game, you interact with other dark sign carriers (other players) by phasing in and out of their world. That is also why you can't communicate with them.

Through the course of the game; you ring both bells of awakening, kill the lords for their souls, and take out the Gwyn family line (most of the family is optional).

So, on to the endings...

The evil ending has you killing Gwyn and not lighting the fire. Which makes you effectively take over for Gwyn as the dark lord. However, the world doesn't get any better and another Age of Darkness starts.

The good ending has you lighting the fire after killing Gwyn. You sacrifice yourself to bring light back into the world. I assume this will allow zombies to fully die, the demons should die off, and humanity could revive itself.

If you look at the good ending, the player could be seen as some sort of christ figure. You go through all the trials and hardship of the game only to sacrifice yourself at the end for the greater good.

The evil ending is not necessarily evil however. I don't really understand what exactly happens after you pick that ending. Plus, the prologue is a little vague about light versus dark. Gwyn, the lord of sunlight brought light into the world. But if he brought light into the world, why even kill him in the first place? I initially thought that the age of darkness was a good thing.

Did I get it right?

You got the endings mixed up if you ask me.
The "good" ending is when you fulfill the "real" prophecy (as explained by Darkstalker Kaathe) and walk out to become the Dark Lord, and thus begin the Age of Man.
Lighting the bonfire is just you beeing used by Frampt and Gwyndolin,
they have been manipulating you all this time, just so you would light
the bonfire again to renew the Age of Fire.

Shungi wrote:You got the endings mixed up if you ask me.
The "good" ending is when you fulfill the "real" prophecy (as explained by Darkstalker Kaathe) and walk out to become the Dark Lord, and thus begin the Age of Man.
Lighting the bonfire is just you beeing used by Frampt and Gwyndolin,
they have been manipulating you all this time, just so you would light
the bonfire again to renew the Age of Fire.

Alright. The clues were misleading.

So, if the age of darkness is a good thing like I thought initially, then does that mean the Dark Wrath covenant is actually a good thing? If Kaathe is the only one in the game you can trust, it makes following him the best thing you can do.

Akatik wrote: ...Dark Wrath covenant is actually a good thing...

Darkwraiths are a good thing just ask anyone with humanity.

Wow, that's the funny thing about this game tho, isn't it? The only way to know the true good ending is go through a tough area and fight bosses that may be too powerful for you only to talk to a NPC at the end of it.

And if you follow the clues given to you by the game, you'll miss it every time.

Talk about hidden character. I tried, when I first started, to go through the game blind. I would never have known about Kaathe.

Guys I'm shoving this topic into The Archives as that's where the lorey types like to hang out, smoke pipes, dance with the stat pixies, that sort of thing.

I have no idea what I'm talking about either. Enjoy!

Never trust a Dragon!

That creature does not spew the whole truth. Even if using the Pygmy for reference, he is not speaking the whole. Only subjecting you to take the place of that being. What ever he wants to gain, it does not include you. No Dragon can be trusted, as all are subjecting themselves always as a top priority. Even if the Dragon Frampt says things that represent Gwyn, does not mean he speaks the whole truth either.

Both endings have cons and pros. Think of why the first flame started, and the second began once again. Look at the lords, the characters, the enemies, the objects, the areas... Their is where you will find the truth. One dialogue from a Dragon should not guaranteed as truth. Look closely, and see.

Never trust a Dragon!

Never trust a dragon? Sounds like Shadowrun.

They are 'Glutton' Dragons, the Symbol of the Undead, pictured as Serpents to many people's eyes to be deceived. Would you trust a creature named the 'Glutton Dragon' more than the 'Primordial Serpent', in which they call themselves as to many of the Undead to follow? I would think not. Their ring's quality says otherwise.

Do you really want to become a servent of a creatue that has only the priority for itself, and itself alone? They are hungry for power, the Hunger which allows them to be seen as the very fabric of what they will do in order to achieve their goal. Anything. As Seath is that of a physical endorser, these Glutton beasts use voice and ideas to sway many to follow them, instead of fear and ruthless experimentation (as Gwyndolin has fallen prey to, I fear).

As said, the Covenants are the same. You are the Servants lead by the ideas and power of lords and other high beings. Remember that when you kill some one as a Darkwraith. You are not serving humanity, you are serving something far greater than you, and the reason why it is far greater, is because you follow it. Remember that when you are the Sun-born warrior helping others to strive on. Remember that when you kill the sinners as a Darkmoon, when you corrupt others as a Gravelord, when you serve an illusionary princess, serve the way of the Uncle of Gwyn, Lloyd... I am sure that the Pygmy would not be very pleased for Humanity to fall victim to those they make as the greater power.

Food for Thought.

yes I agree all the covenants follow the lords the ones who caused the suffering that is why it is good to start the age a man it ends the suffering the lords have brought as in demon souls you are destroying the demons that the lords brought upon the world to make them self's more powerful the lore isnt linked to each game but the ideas are the same just in dark souls you are given a choice grant the lords their power extending the suffering of man or end it cutting the lords off of their power making them no more powerful than the humans the rule over

No offense, but the difference in the quality of literature between posts 9 and 10 made me want to skip reading 10 completely.

About the dark sign and distortion of time. Besides being excuses for players to respawn after death and co-op/PvP, does it really make sense in the game/story? Are we over-thinking the excuses for the game mechanics? I mean, these are great ways to make things like respawning and invading and co-oping seem more natural and fit the story, but i really don't think there's any other reason or lore behind these. Thoughts?

My thoughts are that if you do not believe so, then don't read.

Seriously, no one is making you. If you want to speculate like the rest here, go ahead. If not, then their are other places for you to hang out. No on is asking you to read, it's your choice. If you believe that the lore is not hidden, and is already complete, then why do you come here?

Don't opiniate about it, just do it.

Acidic_Cook wrote:My thoughts are that if you do not believe so, then don't read.

Seriously, no one is making you. If you want to speculate like the rest here, go ahead. If not, then their are other places for you to hang out. No on is asking you to read, it's your choice. If you believe that the lore is not hidden, and is already complete, then why do you come here?

Don't opiniate about it, just do it.

Huh? I'm just talking about the dark sign and phantom mechanics, that's all. I wouldn't be here if I wasn't interested in the whole story. I don't understand what's wrong in just throwing out an opinion. I'm not even telling anyone to stop investigating or anything, just suggesting a possibility. I thought we are allowed to give opinions as long as we don't offend people.

yes

The Phantom Mechanics are what is speculated to be as the Connection of Time and Space. As Phantoms are allowed to Invade worlds, they come from different times (and as said, space), in which case they go to another world to take their property (an ear, humanity, what not). However, such Phantom connections also accumulation by the way of SIGN. The Summon Sign and the Guidance Sign.

The Guidance Sign are warnings, notes, and hints to help heros and travelers from other worlds to find thing seasier... or kill them faster. This connection between the different Times and Space allows the Scattered Humanity to Connect together against the Odds of Death (well, in NG+ of course. NG is unnecessary for intermediate players and high). These Notes usually fade away after a time being. However these Signs can be brought back from hiding with a Seek Guidance Miracle (which I have speculation that the Miracle came from the Sun Warriors... but that is a different topic all together). As the Heros and travelers are allowed to Summon other Heros and travelers to their world, they are summoned both to help guide and help the player (or they are suppose to). However, certain Summon Signs do not follow that rule. The Red Soapstone Sign, the Gravelord Sign, and the Dragon Sign. Both are meant for players to summon these Sign Setters to their world (except in the case of the Gravelord, which is the opposite direction for gameplay). These Phantoms, to say the least, are not ACTUALLY the player. They are what they are called, Phantoms. Shadow Puppets of their Sign Creator (or Sign Summoner, for the Gravelords), in which have been controlled by the replicated beings themselves, connecting the Outsider to the Hero/Traveler's World VIA Space and Time.

As well, the Ghosts of players is also similar to that of the Summon Signs, in which shows Players of your space (but not time) in which show their movements, which is Why you do not see a large chunk of Ghosts moving around, as all players are set to certain 'Spaces' (Meaning you can only see people of your space with different times, and you can not play with every single person in Dark Souls, as the game 'seperates' you into the Spaces, these Worlds. Think of it as World of Warcraft or such with their own worlds, although these different worlds have different characteristics, while all in Dark Souls is the same). And that is basically the Phantom mechanic of the Game.

AS for the Darksign... Speculation says that it and the Flame itself are the main causes of enhollowment, which I say is untrue, as all those who I have seen go Hollow (in the mind, not body) all fell by similar traits (Faliure, as I recall). The darksign is, from what we can see, the link between the Dark Souls and the Flame. The Darksign has characteristics of that Flame, however the DarkSign also shows characteristics of the Dark Lord (as said by some characters... names I do not recall. hm). Many also claim that the Darksign's mark is seen on the chest, where the heart is (which is actually the Firekeeper Scar... see the similarities?), in which the truth is that the Darksign is seen in the Eye Sockets of Hollows (Except NPCs and Players. Reason Why is Unknown for now). The Darksign is a... poor subject, in which is going threw research as for now. It has been speculated by many, however the TRUE Contents of it have been only told by those of characters in the game (in which case some are made to lie, and some are made to not say the 'whole' story they tell, so it is hard to trust their 'facts')

Well... this is the post, my friend. I hope it helps you with the Phantoms and Darksign. The Darksign is still going threw experimentation and research. The Phantom mechanic, however, is true to say the least. I hope this helps.

Related:

https://www.youtube.com/user/EpicNameBro?blend=1&ob=0#p/u/1/ZvWvhZtaV7M

Okay, this is my take. One day, there was a company called From. They weren't very good at coming up with a coherent plotline, so for their next game they decided... not to! Instead, they left cryptic hints and messages with multiple interpretations, and left it up to the players to create their own version of events from the pieces they were left. This meant that everyone was able to have extensive, deep discussions of things that were completely unprovable and, indeed, unconsciously design their very own dark fantasy plotline. So everyone was happy.

And THAT is why From is the best studio ever!

That's what I keep telling everyone

From Software is a master at leaving things vague and letting you screw your own skull inside out. That way there aren't any flaws to notice in the story, and we fill it up with whatever details we want.

Just read it all - it clarified a lot about the game, but I found there was a misunderstanding about posts 12, 13 and 14.

JY4answer was "praising" Acidic_Cook for his post, saying that the guy from post 11 didnt write it too well (no commas there, punctuation and etc). I felt the same way as JY4answer about post 11, while reading Acidic_Cook was quite nice.

JRoma wrote:Just read it all - it clarified a lot about the game, but I found there was a misunderstanding about posts 12, 13 and 14.

JY4answer was "praising" Acidic_Cook for his post, saying that the guy from post 11 didnt write it too well (no commas there, punctuation and etc). I felt the same way as JY4answer about post 11, while reading Acidic_Cook was quite nice.

Yeah me and Acidic_Cook actually exchanged some PMs. All good