The Search for Lore

DoughGuy wrote:Has anyone else noticed that at the kiln on the stairway into the kiln there are a whole bunch of spectral kinghts that walk across the stairs? What the hell are they?

I've seen them befor too and when you go with framps (is that his name) then they look like Elite Knights and if you go with the other one then they are Dark Knights.
But i could just have ran past (The first play) to fast but i could swear they looked like Elite Knights. correct me if i'm wrong

And Sorry i have no idea what they are. mybe the Ghost of fallin Kights?

Nah, they're always Black Knights and I don't really think they're "ghosts", it could be the souls of the knights before they became "Black Knights" or it is just phantoms of black knights traveling around the world (like the phantoms of other players you see in game) because it seems like the "stairway" to Kiln is sort of a "spacetime travelling" thing (I think it's the same type of thing than when you confront Gwyndolin)... and the knights are bound to Gwyn and consequently to the Kiln and the flame.

Durig the intro Oscar says "maybe you can keep the torch lit". Reference to the first flame?

I wonder where Acidic has been these last few days, I hope he hasn't been sick or without internet access.

Just a small observation, the titanite Demons have the same parts of their body broken off as the Sunlight Altar's Statue of the God of War, they also wield a Pole Arm in the same hand as it and fire lightning from it. Just a small observation.

I have been doing stuff for the past few days with friends and work. I also played Mass Effect 3 during that time. I prefer Dark Souls than that game.

I am working on the titanite demons still. I know that they are created from the same gods that created the giants, as both of their heads are of the same quality, and the giants are known to be used as blacksmiths and workers. The titanite Demon came from the same Gods that created the Giants, however the titanite Demon are created by titanite Slabs formed by magic of sorts. Now how this came to be is unknown, however these Tianites are around the areas of the three original Flame Lords, as well as in Sens and the Broken Undead Church. With many of the ties are going towards Gwyn and his follower Gods, Lost Izalith has a spawning Demon their, so it is questionable where it came from. The Blacksmith Deities are unknown at this time, although it does point towards Gwyn and the other three lords.

The Knights of Gwyn are special. They are also clear as to why the two are different. The Black knights are Golem Knights that are controlled by a Dark Soul, or Humanity if you like. The other, the Silver Knights, are formed from the souls, normal souls. As the Black Knights are formed form the deformed shells of Silver Knights with Humanity from the First Flame... the question is where did the Silver Knights got the souls? Either Gwyn created them from part of his soul, or created it from the souls of the fallen. That is the mystery. The Ghosts in the Staircase to the First Flame is debatable, as it is not clear whether the souls were mutated into Dark Souls, or if Humanity kicked out the souls form the shells. If Gol is right, and Humanity just replaces the souls by the Souls being removed from the body, then it would be probable that the ghosts are the wandering souls of the former silver knights. However it seems more like it would be that the Souls mutated into the Dark Souls, Humanity, as Firekeepers and Darkwraiths of New Londo shows the possibility that the Humanity they collect and obtain fuses with their normal souls they harvest into one entity.

If that is the case, then the Ghosts you see might be the Black Knights that were sent outside the first flame's resting place. As the Black Knights are immune to the effects of the Bonfire, perhaps these ghosts are those who wander the world still, and are possibly warped across the world from such Bonfires, as undead can with the Lordvessel. Or perhaps the ghosts are the Black Knights who were defeated in the world of chaos, in which these knights are somewhat cursed to wander aimlessly, like the Ghosts of New Londo.

Their is no evidence that the Dragon of Ash Lake is Velka. Their is no information as to what has happened to Velka, other than the evidence that she is the Black Witch. It is unknown what has happened to her as of when the Chosen Undead enters the world. Of course, the Stone Dragon also has Black Hair, which is the hair of the black witch (which Nito and the Darkwraiths also have, which both show their ties towards the Witch). It is possible, but their is little to no evidence that she is or not.

Now the question is, if the Silver Knights are formed from Gwyn, what are the four knights? Are they people which existed that obtained shards of Gwyns Soul, or were they created the same way as the Silver Knights, created from a pure soul. However due to the appearance of Artorias, it is hard to say if it is or not. However as Humanity was hunted by such Four Kings, it could be that their is a reason why the being is that of a Soul Colour, being a ghost-white silver. As the Four Kings is not a ghost, as he is able to be defeated without the curse, it can be that Artorias was created the same way as the Silver Knights, in which obtained a human quality from the harvesting of the Dark Souls, in which fused to his soul it has. Now it is debatable, as the Four Kings could just be a ghost entity, or more so a lich, as the blade it uses is the same as the Ghost and Jagged Ghost Blades used by the Ghosts of New Londo. Debatable, and still speculated.

The Black Knights are also questions in which they either are in a chaotic state of wandering the plain of the world aimlessly, or they lead themselves. If Artorias and the four knights/kings were able to lead themselves with human qualities form such souls, it can be said that their is a reason why Gwyn chose his most loyal knights to help bring order to the chaos. However it is certain that the Knight's direction changed after the hollowment of the lord of Cinder during the War of Chaos.

I am still working on many things across Lordran and in general Dark Souls. Debates still keep coming into mind, and I still try to find logic and reason to such mysteries. The whole of the story will be understood soon, do not worry. The search continues.

Gol wrote:You shouldn't see the time distortion as "Peoples from the past are brought in the "future" and vice versa".
It's more like "parralel universes", or "parrarel realities", everything takes place at the same moment, of course there are peoples who seem to come from the past but it doesn't mean we are from the "future" either.
There is just the "Present".

Don't know if you've seen that post but since you didn't said anything about it, I guess not.
So, what do you think about that ?

If it's not clear, I could still explain it better.

Yes, I saw. Sadly I must say that I do not entirely understand the time distortion completely. I just see what I see. I see that when you influence with Certian phantoms, their corpses can be found (Kirk). I have found that Certian interactions with Certian characters allows and disallows summoning at times (Lautrec). Even more so, it seems that the Knight of Astora DID go before you, in which you continue what he failed to obtain; order. It seems that the songs point to his philosophy of Gwyn.

It is hard to say whether the phantoms (online) you face are also chosen undead or just meant to be mere wanderers. That line is unclear for me. It does not really say if such undead are also supposed chosen undead seeking the vessel and the first flame, such as you and the knight of Astora. So it can not be said that I would agree not disagree. However I know that their is a past, present, and future reference towards it. Like I said, it is hard to say.

I don't think that kgnight did go before "us".
The messages are just tips and other things left by the devs, it only has "gamplay aspect", in my opinion.

Maybe it was meant to be messages from Oscar because at first, Oscar was meant to be like a rival to the player, if those "removed dialogue ligns" were true though.

What I meant is that, that "time distortion" is also like a "space distortion", everybody thinks there is 3 dimensions : length, width and depth but the time is the 4th and the others depend on it because time change those dimensions but it's also because those dimensions exist that we notice the time.

So, like I said, the time distortion is more a spacetime distortion and everything has been "melted" and everything takes place at the same time, past, present, future is the same "moment".
The wolrds of others (players and NPC) are just other realities or "parralel universes", different versions of a same universe.

For tips though it would be odd that some of his messages have literally no purpose. Some are him just making remarks about what he sees, while one is him just stating "I Can't Take This." As well the actual effort it takes to see some of these messages could be an oversight, but I do feel possibly there is something to them.

I have a feeling that we may need a Physicist.

Well, the time distortion seems to fit your argument, although I must admit I am not much of a science person, and it seems to follow that sort of philosophy and theory. Still...

Right now, I am working on Rhea for now. As the director states, Solaire activates the flame in his world, which means that our activation, or departure (depending on what you choose) is rejected by the time distortion. Perhaps there is something that is needed for the distortion to allow the undead to accomplish what is necessary.

What is odd to me, is that Solaie does not change in the interaction side with the player at all, and it does seem to reject what the director stated in a sense. However, it could be that the phantom and the one we see are possibly... Different. Although, it is hard to say if that is true or not.

We also know that Rhea can be saved without ringing the bell of awakening in the undead church. She prays at the alter of Velka, as well as the infant of the god of war (or humanity... Or perhaps both). She also prays to the alter of a dead Firekeeper as well... Interesting.

We also know that two phantoms can be summoned at the undead church: Solaire, and Lautrec. Now both can be summoned, as well as the Firekeeper soul of Blighttown and/or the bell of the demon ruins is not rung. However, he can be summoned even if the spider witch is killed. This means that the player has access to the Demon Ruins.

Lautrec also is in a mission of sorts. Working for Fina (or it is possibly the new name for Gwynevre to hide, perhaps... The armor and ring seem to tie to her in a way...), he is seemingly attached to both the dragons and the hunting of blue phantoms (which are possibly Velka's orb, as the eye is black, which represents her). Perhaps he is needed with Solaire and Rhea as well. Of course he is noted to possibly killed a priest that was in the catacombs, waiting for Rhea. Possibly.

The Demon Ruins and the Catacombs both have two objects meant for an ancient rite: Large Flame Ember and Rite of Kindling. Both are tied to one another, and Rhea had tried to obtain one of them. She also prays to a corpse of the Firekeeper, a statue representing Velka when she was a Firekeeper, and the written boards around it that show a man and animals, possibly representing Gwyn and his Knights. She is also noted to not only have miracles of her homeland, but miracles of the sun gods as well, and a sun medallions is seen at her corpse at some points.

Now it takes an entire NG to obtain all 7 Firekeeper souls. It is possible that, since the FK Soul has a somewhat aura in use, that it is meant for something. The miracle, the Tranquil Walk of Peace, is also the attention in which the Knight of Astora points the player to, possibly for something similar to that of the Sign Miracle, which is used to find his hidden signs of guidance. Of course it might be for the Darkmoon Ring, not the Miracle.

The two rite ingredients can also be obtained as well, and possibly the items of Gwyn is needed as well. The Pendant Perhaps as well, and maybe even the priest hood (it is odd that it is one of the two hats meant for a class that doesn't have it... The other is the hunter). I am now experimenting with such combinations with the two knights, Rhea, and other items. Perhaps the other embers are needed, but that is unknown.

I will say if it works or not.

Hi Acid glad to see you back. I didn't understand what you said about summoning Solaire and Lautrec in Blighttown...

I think he was saying you can have the blighttown firekeeper soul, ring the 2nd bell and still be able to summon lautrec and Solaire in the parish.

No, you dint ring the second bell. You can kill the spider lady without Lautrec disappearing and killing ash maiden

I have a bit of information that I haven't seen you use, although you probably already know it:

The ring of the firstborn claims that "Lord Gwyn's firstborn was a god of war, but his foolishness led to a loss of the annals, and rescinding of his deific status."

Now, I personally figured that, since annals are historical records, it meant that the firstborn's failure (or whatever he did to cause that event to happen) is the reason that the timeline is messed up (although the only evidence I see for that is Solaire saying so and the fact that NPC's manage to into areas without you noticing them).

Perhaps you can make some light of this, or can direct me to a post where you did so?

Oh yeah, not sure if this was ever pointed out before, but the Great Lord's Chest plate looks like a glutton dragon/primordial serpent, just thought I'd throw that out there.

Something that has been bugging me for quite a while since my newest character is Oswald saying "When thou art in need of humanity, thou shalt be welcome. I always have an ear for confession. Heh heh heh heh..."

It's started a development in my interest for this character, is there an easy way to locate the lore you have developed on him? I couldn't see anything related to his wiki page, and he is carrying so much of velka's things.. not to mention being from carim,like lautric... NOT to mention calling you a friend if you join petrus's covenant, which makes me raise an eyebrow to all the cleric items found right next to petrus and his freaky shift in dialoge after returning from the catacombs.

I'm not sure if this is the proper place to ask, but this thread is so large and cumbersome I don't really know where to look or where to start looking.

Yukon wrote:Something that has been bugging me for quite a while since my newest character is Oswald saying "When thou art in need of humanity, thou shalt be welcome. I always have an ear for confession. Heh heh heh heh..."

It's started a development in my interest for this character, is there an easy way to locate the lore you have developed on him? I couldn't see anything related to his wiki page, and he is carrying so much of velka's things.. not to mention being from carim,like lautric... NOT to mention calling you a friend if you join petrus's covenant, which makes me raise an eyebrow to all the cleric items found right next to petrus and his freaky shift in dialoge after returning from the catacombs.

I'm not sure if this is the proper place to ask, but this thread is so large and cumbersome I don't really know where to look or where to start looking.

On the quote I think the idea is that if you need humanity you can kill an NPC for it then atone your sin of killing said NPC for humanity with him. He's carrying Velka's things because he is a pardoner of Velka, which is probably a sub group of the WoW in Carim because that is where Velka would most probably be. Not sure what you mean about his dialogue. Are you just talking about when he talks about his lady slipping and falling? Or are you confusing this shift with what happens after you pay Lautrec for information? Finally on the items dont forget you get the cracked red eye orbs there so you have to factor in why they are there.

Shkar wrote:I have a bit of information that I haven't seen you use, although you probably already know it:

The ring of the firstborn claims that "Lord Gwyn's firstborn was a god of war, but his foolishness led to a loss of the annals, and rescinding of his deific status."

Now, I personally figured that, since annals are historical records, it meant that the firstborn's failure (or whatever he did to cause that event to happen) is the reason that the timeline is messed up (although the only evidence I see for that is Solaire saying so and the fact that NPC's manage to into areas without you noticing them).

Perhaps you can make some light of this, or can direct me to a post where you did so?

Sorry but I disagree with your opinion. I believe the loss of annals was just that, a loss of the annals. Th flow of time is ONLY distorted in Lordran. Not everywhere in the world. There are explanations of how NPC's get into the areas they do with the exception of Siegemeyer into lost izalith. It does bring up the fact that because it says "rescinded" the god of war didnt lose his status from what he did, but it was taken from him after he did what he did.

DoughGuy wrote:

Shkar wrote:I have a bit of information that I haven't seen you use, although you probably already know it:

The ring of the firstborn claims that "Lord Gwyn's firstborn was a god of war, but his foolishness led to a loss of the annals, and rescinding of his deific status."

Now, I personally figured that, since annals are historical records, it meant that the firstborn's failure (or whatever he did to cause that event to happen) is the reason that the timeline is messed up (although the only evidence I see for that is Solaire saying so and the fact that NPC's manage to into areas without you noticing them).

Perhaps you can make some light of this, or can direct me to a post where you did so?

Sorry but I disagree with your opinion. I believe the loss of annals was just that, a loss of the annals. Th flow of time is ONLY distorted in Lordran. Not everywhere in the world. There are explanations of how NPC's get into the areas they do with the exception of Siegemeyer into lost izalith. It does bring up the fact that because it says "rescinded" the god of war didnt lose his status from what he did, but it was taken from him after he did what he did.

If we take the statement is taken as literal, then why would he lose his deity status? "It's ok, we can remake that history book. No worries." Unless it had some far reaching consequences, it really doesn't make sense for him to be punished by stripping away his divinity.

Also, if their is an accepted theory as to how the various NPC's sneak their way around, what evidence is there to support Solaire's statement that time is jumbled?

Gwyn's firstborn is responsible for what happened in the archives, that's what the ring says, the "time distortion" is not his fault, it all started because of the flame.

Gol wrote:Gwyn's firstborn is responsible for what happened in the archives, that's what the ring says, the "time distortion" is not his fault, it all started because of the flame.

While that may be true, and I don't know enough about the time aspect to truly argue that, the ring says nothing of the archives. The annals could be a book, stone slab, tapestry, or anything that could be used to record history. Or, as I had thought at first, it could simply refer to the linear flow of time.

It could even simply refer to losing PART of the annals causing the pygmy to be forgotten. I will leave the analysis and how it all fits in to acidic, since he seems to be the best at analyzing the game lore.

That being said, I AM curious as to what you mean by "what happened in the archives". Would you mind explaining that to me?

Shkar wrote:

DoughGuy wrote:

Shkar wrote:I have a bit of information that I haven't seen you use, although you probably already know it:

The ring of the firstborn claims that "Lord Gwyn's firstborn was a god of war, but his foolishness led to a loss of the annals, and rescinding of his deific status."

Now, I personally figured that, since annals are historical records, it meant that the firstborn's failure (or whatever he did to cause that event to happen) is the reason that the timeline is messed up (although the only evidence I see for that is Solaire saying so and the fact that NPC's manage to into areas without you noticing them).

Perhaps you can make some light of this, or can direct me to a post where you did so?

Sorry but I disagree with your opinion. I believe the loss of annals was just that, a loss of the annals. Th flow of time is ONLY distorted in Lordran. Not everywhere in the world. There are explanations of how NPC's get into the areas they do with the exception of Siegemeyer into lost izalith. It does bring up the fact that because it says "rescinded" the god of war didnt lose his status from what he did, but it was taken from him after he did what he did.

If we take the statement is taken as literal, then why would he lose his deity status? "It's ok, we can remake that history book. No worries." Unless it had some far reaching consequences, it really doesn't make sense for him to be punished by stripping away his divinity.

Also, if their is an accepted theory as to how the various NPC's sneak their way around, what evidence is there to support Solaire's statement that time is jumbled?

The loss of the annals and the loss of his status as referenced in the ring are not connected events. They are listed together but not related. Its generally accepted that the god of war is responsible for exstinguishing the flame of disparity which is why he lost his status. The time distortion is proven by the ability to aid and invade other players. Their is evidence to show how the NPC's sneak around however acidic is the best one to ask about that.

@Doughguy You maybe right about the God of War extinguishing the First Flame. What else could he do to be banished from history? Did he really killed his mother, Velka?

Whether Velak is alive or not is unknown. However she was alive after the exstinguishing of the flame since she is believed to have influenced the four kings to falling for the dark. He could have seen his mother falling to the dark and killed her before she fell too far. However we dont actully know after which event the god of war lost his status. So after all that ... it's possible but unlikely.

Shkar wrote:

Gol wrote:Gwyn's firstborn is responsible for what happened in the archives, that's what the ring says, the "time distortion" is not his fault, it all started because of the flame.

While that may be true, and I don't know enough about the time aspect to truly argue that, the ring says nothing of the archives. The annals could be a book, stone slab, tapestry, or anything that could be used to record history. Or, as I had thought at first, it could simply refer to the linear flow of time.

It could even simply refer to losing PART of the annals causing the pygmy to be forgotten. I will leave the analysis and how it all fits in to acidic, since he seems to be the best at analyzing the game lore.

That being said, I AM curious as to what you mean by "what happened in the archives". Would you mind explaining that to me?

I'm french and playin on a french version of the game, and in that french version the description says :

"Le premier né de Gwen était un Dieu de la Guerre, mais son inconscience entraîna la perte des Archives et sa propre déchéance. Aujourd'hui, on a oublié jusqu'à son nom."

"Archives", the A is a capital letter, wich means it's a proper noun, the description is talking about the "Archives" ("Archives du Duc") and not "archives", so it's not a book or any other thing.
There's a translation mistake probably, the english version has also a bugged description for the pendant that the french version doesn't have.

And, what happened in the archives ?
You played the game, don't you ?
You didn't see that Seath has gone mad ? That the Archives were sealed ? That he was experimenting on humans (Though, I think he already did it before "what happened") ?

The God of War did something, I don't know what, but something happened.

And, are you the one who downvoted my message ?
It's not that I care about that rep stuff but I'm sure some peoples care and I don't want all my messages to be classified as "non-useful" because I have a negative rep.
I was just stating my opinion and bringing something to the debate.