The Search for Lore

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    Post by Tolvo on Tue Mar 20, 2012 6:51 pm

    That does also give me interest in possible the giants as being disciples of his, as if you notice the Sentinels all use Halberds, but that could easily be coincidence. Also I know it is kind of a stupid relation to make, but Sen, Sentinels. lol

    Actually I've always wondered about the Man Serpents, because they have qualities that are incredibly unlike anything of Seath. The females cast magic, however they are lightning spears. The males are large and powerful and rely strictly on physical strength. The many statues within the fortress are of the Silver Knights, warriors under Gwyn who have fought in his armies.

    By the way isn't it suggested that the flame of chaos may be reanimating stone, like with the Chaos Eaters, the Fire Breathing Demon Golems, and the Reanimated Dragon Legs in Izalith? Couldn't it work the same with the titanite demon there?

    Also there could be some symbolism with the Serpents being in relation with a fallen godhood, possibly a biblical reference if you look a bit too far into things. As well snakes are seen as deceivers and being quite treacherous.

    As well apparently at some point the god of war wore a breastplate like Gwyn, something I did notice is Gwyn's breastplate is of a Primordial Serpent. So just a few more ties.

    Time for me to sit back now and let you guys do the actual work while I come in my conspiracy crap every now and then. sad
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    Post by DoughGuy on Tue Mar 20, 2012 6:52 pm

    Well while the new information provided here is good Acidic you have dropped us back to square one with the pygmy unless you have evidence it is Velka.


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    Post by DoughGuy on Tue Mar 20, 2012 6:54 pm

    Also I feel I must point out the game does say (I will find the quote soon) that the titanite demons rose from the titanite slabs when the nameless blacksmith deity (nameless huh, bit more evidence) passed. So all this work was done to find a dead guy.

    Edit: Ok since the description of demon titaniote is not on the wiki I cant find it but if you read thats description you will see the quote.
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    Post by User on Tue Mar 20, 2012 6:57 pm

    It is Velka. It is I know now. However it also still can be the God of War... but it seems to tie more to his mother. I don't know for certain, as I have yet discovered... but what I have said before is the same as now. It is either or, that much is clear. But to which one, well... we will wait and see. However, it seems to now favour Velka more than her son. Again, we shall see.

    Yes, I was going to add Gwyn's content of clothing as well as other beings to tie them towards Velka... but that will be later. For now their are still mysteries about a certain Flame Lord that is yet to be discovered. Mainly the daughters, the son, and herself. Perhaps it will be next post, or the other. But we shall see.

    Heh, no. Well, somewhat yes, a dead guy. But you possibly see him somewhat dead. He is very special, and a topic that many overlook at times. Again, my search still needs more proof. Patience his key, my firends. The lore is coming to be whole, as I said. The mysteries are more so easily seen tahn before, thanks to the discovery of the firekeeper and nito. The ties are coming, and soon the mysteries will be solved.

    Soon...
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    Post by Tolvo on Tue Mar 20, 2012 7:01 pm

    What's is wrong with our possible subject matter being dead? I'm a huge fan of Nito and I personally don't see an issue. silly

    As well remember though I agree with what Acid has said, we can't entirely prove anything and never will be able to really. We are tying things together and looking for answers hidden within a cryptic world that is extremely good at hiding the story it has. I could interpret scriptures from ancient civilizations and figure out practically everything about it, but really I can't prove anything about the past.

    Do I need to bring up the fact about spoons not existing? silly
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    Post by User on Tue Mar 20, 2012 7:02 pm

    Actually, I think spoons do exist in Lordran, as seen in both the Depths as well as Anor Londo... if I remember correctly.
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    Post by Tolvo on Tue Mar 20, 2012 7:03 pm

    I'm afraid there is no spoon, you must be mistaken.

    Matters of subjective reality are always quite interesting.
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    Post by User on Tue Mar 20, 2012 7:05 pm

    Too bad. I know for certain that I saw both fork and knife, thou they were wooden... don't see a healthy way of eating. Would get splinters without throat and mouth. Dragons and Butchers are hardy people.
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    Post by DoughGuy on Tue Mar 20, 2012 7:09 pm

    Great mental image. The gaping dragon sitting at a table using a knife and fork to eat laurentius alive.

    On topic - Maybe he didn't die. After all it just says he "passes". Maybe that was referencing his loss of diety status, his passing on from anor londo.


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    Post by User on Tue Mar 20, 2012 7:11 pm

    I never said he died. The ring in which the body holds, the corpse, is not what I see as the god of war. Even those that hold the rings of the hornet and wolf are somewhat questionable at best. Passing is a term that is both used by death and departure.

    Like I said, he is alive, but he is somewhat dead. You meet him a few times, and his ties to lordran are somewhat odd, yet it seems that light pours towards the mysteries he holds. Again, I am still speculating and searching for other proof before I state it, as their is no actual proof towards him.
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    Post by WyrmHero on Tue Mar 20, 2012 7:19 pm

    Acidic_Cook wrote:I never said he died. The ring in which the body holds, the corpse, is not what I see as the god of war. Even those that hold the rings of the hornet and wolf are somewhat questionable at best. Passing is a term that is both used by death and departure.

    Like I said, he is alive, but he is somewhat dead. You meet him a few times, and his ties to lordran are somewhat odd, yet it seems that light pours towards the mysteries he holds. Again, I am still speculating and searching for other proof before I state it, as their is no actual proof towards him.



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    Post by Tolvo on Tue Mar 20, 2012 7:21 pm

    My only issue with that is from what little you can see of his face he does not look like the face on the statue of the god of war, though there could be alternative reasons for that.

    I must say, Andre does resemble Gwyn in his old age, so I would be leaning in that direction if it were to be based entirely off of appearance, however I think that is a weak argument to make.
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    Post by User on Tue Mar 20, 2012 7:21 pm

    Again, I am still searching for proof. But yes, it is what I see as the possible God of War. What he is and his travels seem to link towards such a being.
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    Post by DoughGuy on Tue Mar 20, 2012 9:05 pm

    However he show no blacksmithin ideas throughout the entire of hs plot, apart from the slab you get for completing the questline. I'd say to find more info on him you need to find the third ending.


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    Post by User on Tue Mar 20, 2012 9:16 pm

    That is not true. Their are other ties towards him as well. One being a room filled with knights.
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    Post by Shkar on Tue Mar 20, 2012 9:29 pm

    One thing I just thought of, which may be of some interest to you Acid.

    Frampt refers to Gwyn as an old friend, if I remember correctly. Why? I see no reason they would be friends. Frampt is not seen to possess any combat skills. The only information he passes on is stuff Gwyn could have passed on. It is said he is loud and smells horrible. He is similar to a dragon in nature (physically, slightly) so it would have been difficult for him to gain Gwyn's trust.

    I find it unlikely that they would be considered "friends" unless Frampt had offered some form of assistance. The question of "what KIND of assistance" itself is questionable. He isn't even shown to be able to move all that much, so it is possible that he is confined to that one area.

    However, that itself raises questions. How can he hang down to be at the Firelink Altar, but isn't shown to be able to leave that area in entirety? Is he trapped somehow? There are two primordial dragons shown, and both appear to be similar in appearance and both claim to be the primordial serpent. Both appear to be in different areas. Or so it seems.

    We have seen two other creatures that appear the same, and are given the same title. Need a hint? One appears in the Darkroot Basin, one appears at Ash Lake. Both have several identical heads and necks and both drop dragon scales (the serpents are "imperfect dragons"). If the serpents were, in fact, a giant hydra, It would explain why they are incapable of moving. It would explain why they are identical (or close to it).

    For that matter, why are they "primordial"? If they have existed "since the beginning", then I ask "the beginning of what?" The first flame? The world? Either way, it would bear to be stated that one would assume such ancient, everlasting beings to have some sort of power. So they can eat you and take you to the firelink shrine. Unless it is in a pocket dimension, so what?

    For that matter, it bears mentioning that they are the only creatures who move their mouth while they talk. Their teeth clack together while they talk, which in itself is unusual. One would think that in order to speak the language of the humans, one would need to form their mouth at least somewhat similarly, which would mean not clacking their teeth together (for the most part).

    Perhaps they are the "world hydra". Perhaps they are giant puppets of some larger, more powerful being. Perhaps they are simply lying snakes. I'll let the rest of you lore seekers think it over.

    After all, I'm probably just grasping at straws of a wild thought and making ideas as wild as some in Glyph's secret thread. You guys would be a better judge then I would.


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    Post by WyrmHero on Tue Mar 20, 2012 9:34 pm

    I checked a Dragonslayer Spear that one of my toons has and it has the curved thingy before the 'blade', so the statue of the Sunlight Altar wields definitely a Dragonslayer Spear.


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    Post by Gol on Wed Mar 21, 2012 7:54 am

    WyrmHero wrote:I checked a Dragonslayer Spear that one of my toons has and it has the curved thingy before the 'blade', so the statue of the Sunlight Altar wields definitely a Dragonslayer Spear.


    I think you need glasses, the decoration on the halberd before the blade is curved and it is really just before the blade.
    The spear has a decoration too but it is not curved and the decoration is on the shaft. (Go see the images in my previous post, you'll see)

    And, anyway, a spear has a pointed head, that's why it's called a spear.
    It's simple really : Pointed head --> Spear, Blade --> Halberd.

    And he was a god of war, not a god of hunt, the spear is a weapon that was originally designed for hunting, the halberd, though, is a weapon designed for war.
    (I could explain why but a research on the internet would surely be better.)

    I think Andre is the God Of War.
    He is the Blacksmith who has the most upgrade paths and the only one who has upgrade paths tied to the ideals of the God Of War (Regular, Raw, Divine, Occult), he has also a unique physical appearance :
    The giant blacksmith looks like any giant, Vamos is a skeleton (ok he don't look the same as the others and holds the royal helm and that's why he is important, but not the god of war), Rickert looks like any sorcerer but Andre even if he seems to be human is taller and larger than any NPC, he also have a beard and a unique haircut, and his hair and beard are white, the only other NPC who has a white beard and hair is Gwyn.

    His hammer is also the most "common", it's a simple iron hammer with no magic power but he is able to forge very powerful weapons.

    "But the old God of War still watches closely over his warriors"
    (And, the "old" really means "old" I think, he lost his Deity status after all.)

    Solaire of astora, warrior of the sun.
    Andre of Astora.

    Do I need to explain the link ?

    Back to his physical appearance :
    He has 2 scars similar to the one we have on the chest, when you kill him he doesn't vanish, his corpse lies on the ground, just like the 2 undead merchants but he doesn't seem to be hollow and doesn't have red eyes (I checked with binoculars after killing him, so I'm sure), his eyes are those of a human.

    And, the most important : He has particular moves and does incredibly high damage with his bare fists.
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    Post by WyrmHero on Wed Mar 21, 2012 2:44 pm

    Gol wrote:
    WyrmHero wrote:I checked a Dragonslayer Spear that one of my toons has and it has the curved thingy before the 'blade', so the statue of the Sunlight Altar wields definitely a Dragonslayer Spear.


    I think you need glasses, the decoration on the halberd before the blade is curved and it is really just before the blade.
    The spear has a decoration too but it is not curved and the decoration is on the shaft. (Go see the images in my previous post, you'll see)

    And, anyway, a spear has a pointed head, that's why it's called a spear.
    It's simple really : Pointed head --> Spear, Blade --> Halberd.

    And he was a god of war, not a god of hunt, the spear is a weapon that was originally designed for hunting, the halberd, though, is a weapon designed for war.
    (I could explain why but a research on the internet would surely be better.)

    I think Andre is the God Of War.
    He is the Blacksmith who has the most upgrade paths and the only one who has upgrade paths tied to the ideals of the God Of War (Regular, Raw, Divine, Occult), he has also a unique physical appearance :
    The giant blacksmith looks like any giant, Vamos is a skeleton (ok he don't look the same as the others and holds the royal helm and that's why he is important, but not the god of war), Rickert looks like any sorcerer but Andre even if he seems to be human is taller and larger than any NPC, he also have a beard and a unique haircut, and his hair and beard are white, the only other NPC who has a white beard and hair is Gwyn.

    His hammer is also the most "common", it's a simple iron hammer with no magic power but he is able to forge very powerful weapons.

    "But the old God of War still watches closely over his warriors"
    (And, the "old" really means "old" I think, he lost his Deity status after all.)

    Solaire of astora, warrior of the sun.
    Andre of Astora.

    Do I need to explain the link ?

    Back to his physical appearance :
    He has 2 scars similar to the one we have on the chest, when you kill him he doesn't vanish, his corpse lies on the ground, just like the 2 undead merchants but he doesn't seem to be hollow and doesn't have red eyes (I checked with binoculars after killing him, so I'm sure), his eyes are those of a human.

    And, the most important : He has particular moves and does incredibly high damage with his bare fists.



    Gol I'm sorry to contradict you, but I checked the Spear in All angles and that thingy is curved. It's also right before the 'blade'. I'm 100% sure. Check for yourself in your game. I also use glasses lol. The Spear was also used by Knights on Horseback and by Greek and Roman Phalanxes. I agree with you on Andre being the God of War, there are lots of clues that you already mentioned.


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    Post by Gol on Wed Mar 21, 2012 3:50 pm

    I verified in game, not just images because I had the spear in my inventory and I was like "Let's check if it really is the spear", then I checked images to be sure and it's an halberd.
    You're the only one who sees a spear, do you hate being wrong that much ?

    And spear was primarily designed for hunt, that's what I was saying, while halberd was designed for war, it was very useful against horsemens and the horses themselves, contrarily to the spear and its wooden shaft you could also block with a halberd and deal with large groups.



    The weapons are different, yea you're right it has the same kind of decoration just before the blade, I didn't saw it at first, I was talking about the thing on the shaft but the spear has a POINTED HEAD (maybe you will understand with caps) and the weapon the statue is holding has a BLADE.

    http://darksoulswiki.wikispaces.com/file/view/dragonslayer_spear.jpg/267407580/447x231/dragonslayer_spear.jpg

    https://i.imgur.com/qqKUM.jpg

    Look closely at the details, it's a blade, the decoration is a bit larger and the shaft doesn't have the same shape, just look closely at the details.

    Of course the 2 weapons are similar because halberds are similar to spear because the weapon was "inspired" by the spears, it's kind of an hrybrid between a spear and an axe, the spear's shaft (reinforced with metal rims) and the axe's blade.

    It's not the dragonslayer spear but because it's an halberd it is similar to the dragonslayer spear, those weapon were surely created by the same blacksmith though, it's maybe a "Dragonslayer Halberd" (That's the idea I had), or something like that.







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    Post by Tolvo on Wed Mar 21, 2012 3:55 pm

    Hey, debate is all fine and dandy but let's not turn this into a personal matter. Personally I find it very likely for the god of war, someone who possibly fought alongside Ornstein and had his weapons crafted and made by the same person would have weapons with similar designs despite them being different weapons. Just symbols and decorations would be standard possibly among the knights and children of Gwyn, that is definitely a blade head if you ask me. However it might not be per say a halberd, it definitely is not a spear.
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    Post by skarekrow13 on Wed Mar 21, 2012 4:10 pm

    Gonna add more controversy......the curved portion (decoration or guard perhaps) of the "halberd" is more akin to Gwyn's Great Sword guard or the ones of the great swords next to the Artorias grave. Could be same blacksmith but Ornstein's looks more like a special weapon made for decoration/ceremony and battle (like Inigo Montoya's rapier) while the "halberd" is indicative of more utilitarian function. And if we wanna dig into terminology THIS deeply a halberd is defined by having a blade mounted to the side of the shaft, often with a point or bladed end but always reminiscent of an ax head. The weapon at the sun altar is a winged spear as it has a blade rather than a point and winged protrusions which serve a variety of uses depending on infantry or cavalry use. Orsntein's spear is also a winged spear. Both weapons belong to the same general category but are not the same weapon. Ornstein's appear to be a strengthened blade made to penetrate through armor or scales, hence the "dragonslayer" moniker. The God of War's spear is a broader blade indicative of use against infantry that would be less well equipped. This is consistent with most Gods of war or depictions of great warriors who would use this/a javelin/bow or other specialized weapon for ranged or mass combat with a more traditional melee weapon as a primary symbol of power.


    Interesting fact about the Dragonslayer spear. I think it's the statue of Ornstein shows him holding one of the wings.....likely this was meant to supplement one wing function. A winged spear was thought to be winged to prevent the entire spear from going in and lodging in the victim, disarming the user. As Ornstein would have close to the ultimate challenge in retrieving his weapon in this instance the enlarged wings are handles to help leverage the weapon out.


    Last edited by skarekrow13 on Wed Mar 21, 2012 4:15 pm; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : Forgot a fun fact)

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    Post by WyrmHero on Wed Mar 21, 2012 4:59 pm

    Gol you don't have to be so agressive, -1 for you.



    Edit: I agree with you that the one on the statue has a blade, but please try to be calm next time.


    Last edited by WyrmHero on Wed Mar 21, 2012 5:07 pm; edited 1 time in total


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    Post by Tolvo on Wed Mar 21, 2012 5:03 pm

    Gol, Wyrm. Let's calm down guys there's no need to act like this towards one another. We're just searching for the truth, not trying to prove ourselves right.

    And that is right about the Winged spear, hmm...Alright, let's make Deadliest Warrior Dark Souls edition to figure this out. silly

    I do think we are maybe getting a bit too focused on the type of weapon it is.
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    Post by User on Wed Mar 21, 2012 7:43 pm

    Yes, you all are... It is defiantly a hammer. Can't believe none of you see that.

    Debates, debates, debates. Always debates of the known and misunderstood. It is better to understand and not know, than to know and not understand.

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