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    The Search for Lore

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    Post by Shkar Mon Apr 09, 2012 3:45 am

    cloudyeki wrote:Oh god, the abyss holds an orochi!!!

    I think the 4 kings are just that. 4 kings corrupted by darkness. Though the lopped limb thing is true, they still have that.... Living cloak thing on there left side.

    While I haven't had much time to examine the four kings (I'm trying my best to kill them ASAP of course), their left side simply looks like their "spiky" armor is just extended out more there. I also think that the simple fact that they look EXACTLY alike (and there can be more then 4, if you are slow(If you kill some first, obviously)) supports the idea that they are one person.
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    Post by WyrmHero Mon Apr 09, 2012 3:45 am

    Very good observation, but Artorias was not left handed. It is speculation because the knight in the box art wields a sword in his left hand. The sword is not the GSoA, but a miniature Black Knight Greatsword. Also I believe that knight is Oscar, as it wields the Crest Shield and wears Elite Knight Armor.
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    Post by Shkar Mon Apr 09, 2012 3:48 am

    WyrmHero wrote:Very good observation, but Artorias was not left handed. It is speculation because the knight in the box art wields a sword in his left hand. The sword is not the GSoA, but a miniature Black Knight Greatsword. Also I believe that knight is Oscar, as it wields the Crest Shield and wears Elite Knight Armor.

    Yeah, I realize it's speculation, but it seems to be what the general consensus is. Plus, almost all the lore in this game is speculation. That's the whole point of this thread happy.
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    Post by WyrmHero Mon Apr 09, 2012 3:51 am

    Also Yukon conviced me that Artorias is not Four Kings, as the Darksword says that the Four Kings were seduced by the Dark and their knights became Darkwraiths. Artorias hunted the Darkwraiths, so he can't be Four Kings, because he hunted them after they were transformed by Four Kings making the pact with Kaathe.
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    Post by Shkar Mon Apr 09, 2012 3:59 am

    WyrmHero wrote:Also Yukon conviced me that Artorias is not Four Kings, as the Darksword says that the Four Kings were seduced by the Dark and their knights became Darkwraiths. Artorias hunted the Darkwraiths, so he can't be Four Kings, because he hunted them after they were transformed by Four Kings making the pact with Kaathe.

    I can't really argue with that, so I'll cede that detail to you. However, I still say it doesn't really make sense for us to be fighting all Four Kings. Unless they were quadruplets, there is no good reason for them all to look exactly the same. If we do only fight one, then, well, isn't the fact that there are THREE MORE of them out there kind of a massive threat that someone would have brought up?

    Also, It would seem to me that the flooding of New Londo was more of an attempt to contain the Kings rather then the actual darkwraiths. Yet, Kaathe is shown to be able to transport other beings from the abyss...
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    Post by DoughGuy Mon Apr 09, 2012 4:04 am

    I agree with Wyrm. Also while more than 4 kings can spawn there cant be more than 4 at one time. The extra ones are simply the ones you already killed respawning. Kaathe and Frampt are the 2 main serpents. Kaathe leeads the 8 who still serve the dark and Frampt believes he is the primordial serpent because he is the only serpent supporting the fire.
    Spoiler:

    EDIT: They look he same because they were all mutated by the abyss into the figue that you see when you fight them. Mutate may not be the right word but it gets the idea across.
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    Post by Shkar Mon Apr 09, 2012 4:13 am

    DoughGuy wrote:I agree with Wyrm. Also while more than 4 kings can spawn there cant be more than 4 at one time. The extra ones are simply the ones you already killed respawning. Kaathe and Frampt are the 2 main serpents. Kaathe leeads the 8 who still serve the dark and Frampt believes he is the primordial serpent because he is the only serpent supporting the fire.
    Spoiler:

    EDIT: They look he same because they were all mutated by the abyss into the figue that you see when you fight them. Mutate may not be the right word but it gets the idea across.

    They share a health bar. It isn't even set up to hit 0 when you would have done enough damage to kill all 4 kings. This implies that they share a life source, ergo one being. If the additional ones were simply the dead ones respawning, the fight would probably have the kings being weaker and you have to make them all die within a certain amount of time from the first one. This kind of tactic is not unheard of in video games, and appears often in WoW (Granted, it's typically for groups of like 10-40 people, but still). There is no reason to think that if they could rise from the dead that quickly that you would be able to actually defeat them. It just makes no sense to me.

    (I don't want to come across as stubborn. I am not clinging to this idea, I just don't find the evidence convincing enough.)

    I guess you could claim that the darkness would bring everything to be the same, since it is trying to extinguish the flame of disparity, however darkness is explicitly stated to be "generated" by the flame.

    For that matter, has the narrator of the opening cinematic been determined/discussed at all? Seems like something that COULD possibly be of importance to lore.
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    Post by DoughGuy Mon Apr 09, 2012 4:21 am

    I believe ity is set up to hit 0 whe nyou deal enough to kill 4 of them EXACTLY. However due to the nature of the fight its really hard to kill exactly 4 and take out the entire lifebar eactly at the same time. Their life force could indeed have been combined into 1. They are obviously linked to the abyss, if they are all linked together they could share one life force. This way if one dies as long as their are others alive it will respawn, you must deal enough damage to kill all four to kill any of them.
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    Post by Shkar Mon Apr 09, 2012 4:26 am

    DoughGuy wrote:I believe ity is set up to hit 0 whe nyou deal enough to kill 4 of them EXACTLY. However due to the nature of the fight its really hard to kill exactly 4 and take out the entire lifebar eactly at the same time. Their life force could indeed have been combined into 1. They are obviously linked to the abyss, if they are all linked together they could share one life force. This way if one dies as long as their are others alive it will respawn, you must deal enough damage to kill all four to kill any of them.

    I guess I can cede the fact that the rules of how souls work in this series isn't clear. They could have merged their souls in order to link their lives, so to speak. The one issue still preventing me from accepting this theory is that the soul you get for killing them explicitly states that it is the soul of ONE of the four kings.
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    Post by DoughGuy Mon Apr 09, 2012 4:33 am

    hmmm, that is something. However I cannot see any of the kings escaping. The fact you can have up to 4 on the screen but no more pretty much tells me you are fighting the four kings. I honestly dont know how to explain that one.
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    Post by WyrmHero Mon Apr 09, 2012 4:37 am

    Yes, and the soul of Ornstein was bequeathed to the Four Knights as well by Lord Gwyn.
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    Post by Tolvo Mon Apr 09, 2012 8:13 am

    Just thought I should bring this up, the Four Kings all have left hands, multiple ones. In between their spikes are multiple human looking pale arms.
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    Post by TehInfamousAmos Mon Apr 09, 2012 8:24 am

    Shkar wrote:
    4. So do they wander off? Most of the NPC's would die at the Firelink Shrine, but they never appear as hollows there. If they do wander off, why don't the normal monsters? The hollows we see don't seem to have any inclinations towards travel.

    Actually you may have forgotten one hollow... Logan... he goes hollow and moves up to Seath's chamber... Ahahahaha Plot twist, plot twist, wait also BAM! Crestfallen Warrior, I am on a roll cheers actually there are some other hollows that go walkies silly
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    Post by Shkar Mon Apr 09, 2012 9:53 am

    TehInfamousAmos wrote:
    Shkar wrote:
    4. So do they wander off? Most of the NPC's would die at the Firelink Shrine, but they never appear as hollows there. If they do wander off, why don't the normal monsters? The hollows we see don't seem to have any inclinations towards travel.

    Actually you may have forgotten one hollow... Logan... he goes hollow and moves up to Seath's chamber... Ahahahaha Plot twist, plot twist, wait also BAM! Crestfallen Warrior, I am on a roll cheers actually there are some other hollows that go walkies silly

    You don't see them as hollow or kill them before they get there though. It is entirely possible that they go there and then turn hollow. It's been confirmed in that art box that Logan was trying to make himself more like Seath.
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    Post by Shkar Tue Apr 10, 2012 5:25 pm

    I apologize for the double post, but I just noticed of some rather interesting information.

    As I recall, Patches holds the crescent axe in Tomb of the Giants, does he not? Yet if you meet him in the Catacombs, he instead holds an ordinary spear. So sometime between the catacombs and him tricking the clerics into the pit, he comes across one of the sacred weapons of the Way of the White. Doesn't Lautrec mention something about a fleeing old man? Is it not possible that Patches killed the man for the axe?

    The more I think about it, the more I think I'm missing some obvious bit of info that makes this theory void, but I can't think of it.
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    Post by Yukon Tue Apr 10, 2012 7:14 pm

    The fleeing old man was petrus, if you go talk to petrus after you get that dialogue from Laurtric he confesses to abandoning the fair lady, and he also gives a rather chilling bit of dialogue himself.

    I can't recall now, what weapons did patches use in Demons souls? It is an interesting observation Shkar, did you read the item description of the two items he holds? Maybe they give a clue, I am afc (away from console) so can't check right now.
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    Post by TehInfamousAmos Tue Apr 10, 2012 7:45 pm

    He used the adjudicator shield and the winged spear.
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    Post by Wade_Wilson Tue Apr 10, 2012 7:57 pm

    I suppose the adjudicator shield was fitting, since both the adjudicator and matches himself are avaricious beings.
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    Post by TehInfamousAmos Tue Apr 10, 2012 8:09 pm

    Oh look a Brony ^^
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    Post by Shkar Tue Apr 10, 2012 9:41 pm

    Oh, looks like I may have given a useless observation. After checking on some other characters, it looks like patches never uses the crescent axe. On the other side though, killing him in the catacombs before he meets rhea and co. may rove interesting if he doesn't drop the crescent axe.

    Though, I suppose it's possible that Petrus went and bribed Patches with it to get him to kill Rhea and co. Actually, do we know WHY Petrus left them for dead and later goes to kill Rhea?
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    Post by DoughGuy Tue Apr 10, 2012 9:56 pm

    Yukon can you get the dialogue where Patches admits hes the old man with trinkets? I cant find it on youtube.
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    Post by Yukon Tue Apr 10, 2012 11:12 pm

    Huh, do you mean Petrus doughboy? ... Uhh.

    I don't think Patches ever says anything like that did I spell something wrong in my last post?

    Anyway here is what Petrus says after you talk to Lautric about an old man fleeing...

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l4GFsXvJmxc&t=11m4s
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    Post by DoughGuy Tue Apr 10, 2012 11:14 pm

    Ok, I misread what you were saying. Thougth you said patches but you said Petrus.
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    Post by Yukon Tue Apr 10, 2012 11:19 pm

    Haha, you had me double checking my post. "I am sure I didn't type patches?!"
    I actually havent taken much time talking to patches... But btw

    On the other side though, killing him in the catacombs before he meets rhea and co. may rove interesting if he doesn't drop the crescent axe.

    Though, I suppose it's possible that Petrus went and bribed Patches with it to get him to kill Rhea and co. Actually, do we know WHY Petrus left them for dead and later goes to kill Rhea?

    Petrus uses a mace, not a crecent axe, but I will see if he drops it in the catacombs and get back to you. I know he drops it in the Tomb, but I can't recall if reah and her crew were down there already or not the last time I tried....

    Let me get back to you in about 15 min.
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    Post by Yukon Tue Apr 10, 2012 11:35 pm

    He has the crecent axe in Catacombs before meeting Reah and the crew, RIP patches... you were too good for this world.

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