My thoughts on the firstborn

So lately i've been listening a lot of people yapping about Solaire being the Firstborn, i used to think that too until i decided to dig really deep into it, and came to some nice conclusions

So Gwyn's first son, the big boss basically, was the next in line for the "throne" of the Lodrian Pantheon, and he got there, reading the description in his ring (Ring of the Sun's Firstborn) we can clearly see that:

"Lord Gwyn's firstborn, who inherited the sunlight, once wore this ancient ring.
Lord Gwyn's firstborn was a god of war, but his foolishness led to a loss of the annals, and rescinding of his deific status.
Today, even his name is not known."

So yeah he inherited the sunlight, meaning he was still a deity after his father had his brilliant idea and died to link the flame, leaving him (who i'm gonna call X for shorts), his sister, Gwynevere, his brother, Gwyndolin, and all others gods (Fina, Flann, Velka, etc.. <-- i also believe these gods were part of Gwyns court)
So yeah, everything was fine, rainbows and cupcakes, were not that the fire Gwyn sacrificed himself to keep lit was dying out (AGAIN, since you know... nature's desire to give man a chance...) so it befell X (MEGAMAN, HURRY, THOSE PLATAFORMS FALL WHEN YOU STEP ON THEM!!!... no one is gonna get this joke...) to solve this problem...

Let me cut the story here and go to another part...

Imagine you were born, ok? good, you are the newest son of the great lord of sunlight be in awe of your luck... but wait? these tentacles are your legs? Yeah you know who i'm talking about...
The great mastermind behind the link the fire ending, Gwyndolin, poor "ugly" Gwyndolin...
Ok now imagine if you loved your father with all your heart... but he had no affinity for you since you are so ugly and linked to the very opposite of everything he [your father] represents.
In fact, your father was so displeased, he had you raised as a GIRL... to try and hide your ugliness away with a dress... but wait that is not all, you have a brother... yeah, a strong, valiant man, a warrior... damn a GOD OF WAR!!! who is everything your father ever wanted... let me ask... would you like this brother? Or would you develop a vertiginous envy that would only grow as he got all the things YOU ever wanted to have...

I believe now you see where i'm going, but lets get back to the story...

So yeah the fire was burning out and X had to do something... so he went to talk to other people who would also be prejudiced by the end of the age of fire, like for example the Witches of Izalith... (i have no idea if he went to talk to Nito or even looked for the Pigmy, but this is what i speculate)
X was like "hey witches, i need your lord soul to maintain the age of fire permanently, help me out babes..." and the witches were like "Like HEEEEELL no you'll take our precious lord soul... but maybe i can solve your problem..." said mama witch... and well... we all know how that turned out... freaking most annoying boss EVER (get ready to have your mind blown)
BAAAAM DEMON INVASION and the fall of Izalith, both results of the failed attempt to duplicate a lord soul (again this is my speculation, i just think there would be no reason for the witches to duplicate the lord soul simply for duplicating it... they were like "hey sisters lets all have a lord soul" "uuuh can i have mine in the color pink?" damn it these are lord souls not IPhones... they would not allow ANYONE to have them, so why duplicate it?For more power maybe? I don't know but this is what i believe)

Meanwhile, Gwyndolin was there boiling his plans against his brother (who BTW is the creator of the Warriors of Sunlight covenant, keep that in mind) had a good idea, but to finish his plan he had to get rid of his brothers most loyal servants... the four knights...

BAAAM AGAIN OH YEAH BABY BLOWING YOUR MIND LIKE A DINAMITE... ok, i mean think about it, why were Artorias and Gough conveniently located in Oolacile EXACTLY during the Abyss event (we will surelly know more about this in the upcoming DLC), and why in the name of our lord Jesus Christ after the fall of Oolacile,Gough vanishes for no apparent reason and Artorias, who survived the onslaught... yeah cool... WAS THE FIRST ONE TO BETRAY THE GODS!!! He who "had an unbendable will of steel..." (<-- taken from Wolf ring description) was the first one to bail out on X and the gods... why? Maybe he was told something... (also cool fact... notice how Artoriases left arm is broken... and think, what do knights usually carry on their left arms... Parrying daggers? Not Artorias baby... the Greatshield you Dodo, and what do you do with shields? think about this too... moving on (about Ornstein and Ciaran i have no since there is nothing there just a big blank space, but i think that they were away in mission given by Gwyndolin during the following event)

So yeah knights away, demons repelled and locked in the demon ruins, Quelaag is born etc etc... ok, so X returns only to be blamed of everything by his brother, oh dear brother... who pointed to his face and yelled "YOU BROUGHT THIS UPON US", and convinced by his words, they used their powers to strip X of his deific status, betrayed by his brother, it is said in his ring descrip that he lost his powers because he was a fool... maybe a fool not to see the plot his brother set up... a fool not to see what was right under his nose? think about this too...

So he was cast out along with his Warriors of sunlight, and his brother made us the favor or erasing him from existence (since he wanted to be loved by his father the same way X was, in his demented mind, getting rid of everything was a practical way to achieve it)

But our beloved guy's story does not end here, he in a last direct order to his warriors, sent them across the world, everywhere (hence we have warrior's of sunlight in Astora and Carim for example... what... want me to link X and Fina too now? Know that i can, just look at Lautrec, i think Fina had something to do with X escape from Gwyndolin, who would have gladly killed him, and the creation of the Warriors of Sunlight) still watching them closely (hinting he did not lost his memory)

"This faintly warm medal, engraved with the symbol of the Sun, is the ultimate honour, awarded to shoe who summon the Warrior of Sunlight and complete a goal.
The symbol represents Lord Gwyn's firstborn, who lost his deity status and was expunged from the annals. [u]But the old God of War still watches closely over his warriors[/u]."

After this maybe the gods found out about Gwyndolin's deception and left either by: a) fear of an attempt of revenge from X / b) They saw Gwyndolin's incompetence in carrying his father's work (later attempting to persuade a strong undead to carry his brother's plan onward, witch was to take the lord souls to maintain the fire, and perform the same sacrifice his father did, so that then he could rule alone as the sole sovereign) or c) Were really pissed at this lie and scared of Seath's madness to remain in Anor Londo, leaving poor ugly Gwyndolin all alone with Frampt... to scheme his ascension into lord of sunlight (forget the moon, the sun is yellow...)

now the reasons i think Solaire is NOT the Firstborn is that he is Solaire OF ASTORA, not Anor Londo... but Astora, and also for people that think he is the firstborn because of the lightning spear... yeah go join the Warriors of sunlight and run around being the firstborn yourself, since you receive the sunlight spear after giving 10 sunlight medals to the altar... ok that you can summon him at several boss battles including Gwyn's, but i think his presence at Gwyn's battle after he is disappointed about not finding his sun, is more of like "YOU BASTARD, YOU SHOULD BE THE SUN, SO WHY WON'T YOU LET ME FIND MINE!!!"

Also i believe all those statues we see of the woman holding a baby holding a sword are of the Firstborn and Gwyn's wife, since she is wearing a crown, and the baby is holding a freaking sword... it's like Leonidas...

Share your thoughts with me, and anything that can be added to this will be of great help, i'm actually making a DS lore book trying to describe all lore as plainly as possible... praise the sun peace out

that was the most confusing post ever but you may have stumbled upon some facts. solaire is no the god of war. remember when you meet him at the sunlight alter? he is praying to the god of war (the statue has been destroyed due to his disgrace). the statue theory is valid enough too. apart from that i think its balderdash (no offence). *be warned spoilers ahead read no further*

Spoiler:

^Ah you do realise there is a spoiler button to use to put spoilers in?

Artorias was in Oolacile hunting Darkwraiths... ok, so why don't we meet any in the DLC? only tainted people by the advance of the abyss... if Ciaran was there to help him hunt these Darkwraiths why didn't she helped him fight Manus and prevented him from becoming tainted (it is confirmed she loved him and they probably had a case together)

Now think, ok that the gods could beat Gwyndolin easy... but then what? Deal with the crazy powerful white dragon? They decided to leave because there was nothing else left for them there, only pain and death, so let Gwyndolin have what he wants, but he'll have no support in this, so they bailed... except for Velka of course, but i'll talk about her in another post

also it looks like you did not read what i wrote at all, looks like you only skipped to the part where i talk about Gwyndolin's guilt, but not about the cause of this guilt... this pains my heart, but meh, this is merely my speculation, my opinion, if you have yours it's ok, if some part of my theory was not clear point it out i'll gladly explain it again... but... at least read it all before pointing failures...

MASSIVE DLC SPOILERS!

Spoiler:

menzinho you have the right to an opinion don't take offence but cieran's love is not confirmed merely a possibility. also i said creatures of the abyss NOT darkwraiths. the abyss attacked oolicile. the gods i think could have killed the 1 rogue diety but seem to have opted to leave instead. the reason for this is unknown but i see no reason why gwyndolen or seath should be more powerful than all the gods if even the player can beat.

Think it like this, is not Seath himself but the things he can do while they have their backs turned, also think that he almost single handedly wiped out half the everlasting dragons himself (via cutscene we can see him mounted on a pile of dead dragons, drakes and alike, meaning that he almost effortlesly, seen by the fact he is not visibly injured, killed a race that Gwyn and his knights were strugling to beat, via Hawkeye Gough's commentary on fighting dragons that to each dragon they took down, three knights fell too)

Plus why didn't Gwyndolin leave with them? He clearly wanted to continue his father's age of fire, even though it was dangerous, also i take this a lore content, not playthrough, meaning that lorewise, a lowly undead could not possibly beat those entities... unless if he had help from another entity, but in ga,eplay, of course you can beat them, it's made like that, but i find unlikely that a human could that easily kill the dragon that wiped the Everlasting dragons and spent a bazillion years researching magic history and learning all about all (it's like saying that because the player kills Nito, Gwyn, Ornstein or the Gaping dragon makes them weak), i'd say Seath is way more powerful than all gods, hence Gwyn chose to keep him as an ally and not try to kill him (thus pissing off Havel and his knights)

And last i think Ciaran's last words confirm their romance in a way, the part she mumbles that has no subtitles "Oh... my dear Artorias" that is way too affectionate to be just friends if you ask me

And again Artorias fought Darkwraiths, but maybe not all things from the abyss, i don't know, since the abyss never stretched outside until Oolacile, Artorias never really battled anything other than the wraiths, even though he traversed it, when we fight the four kings we don't see those creatures or anything, just a large black area

"Sword born from the soul of the great grey
wolf Sif, guardian of the grave of the
Abysswalker Knight Artorias.

Sir Artorias hunted the Darkwraiths, and his
sword strikes harder against dark servants."

There it says only Darkwraiths, but not creatures from the abyss (like the humanity guys or things similar to Manus, maybe he encountered those things only in Oolacile, and that is why he got beaten, because he had never fought them before and was unprepared)

Also i'd like to ask, what the hell is "balderdash"? I simply don't know what i means and i can't be offended if i don't know what it is XD joking, i'm just curious ^^

We have no proof that Seath actually DID anything to help fight the dragons. It specifically says how Gwyn, Nito, and the witch fought them, but absolutely nothing about Seath. For all we know, he had "swept up" his fallen brothers and was mourning them, but the others found him there and he managed to make it seem like he had killed them all to help the humans/gods.

He's certainly crafty enough to do it.

Then why is he crushing one of their scales, he gently picked it up from the ground, plus he got blood on his hands, jaw and body, not his blood since he does not bleed as seen in his battle, plus the intro makes it pretty clear, way too clear, i mean would you mourn your dead race by crushing one of their scales and then standing in a pile of them?

Plus Seath has enough reasons to hate the other Dragons out of envy, reason enough to side with the gods and wipe them out

here is the intro just so can check that part, it's in 2:24

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jj10Uu9ZRGg

menzinho wrote:Then why is he crushing one of their scales, he gently picked it up from the ground, plus he got blood on his hands, jaw and body, not his blood since he does not bleed as seen in his battle, plus the intro makes it pretty clear, way too clear, i mean would you mourn your dead race by crushing one of their scales and then standing in a pile of them?

Plus Seath has enough reasons to hate the other Dragons out of envy, reason enough to side with the gods and wipe them out

here is the intro just so can check that part, it's in 2:24

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jj10Uu9ZRGg

Nobody else is around, the dragons are on fire, you CAN make him bleed in the fight (IIRC), and his scream just sounds like fury and loss.

Anyway, that whole point was just a rather extreme possibility. I wasn't seriously suggesting that part (although it seems interesting).

The dragons are on fire because of the fire the witches made rain, and yeah i forgot about the tail, but i doubt the blood is only his, and his scream sounds like that everytime he screams, but maybe he has a small amount of remorse, since he did it mainly for his own need to be immortal (via Primordial Crystal, item he pillaged from the dragons)

i take he's a really selfish and bitter being, who was different and just wanted to be like everyone else, immortal, everlasting, and scaled, maybe he was left out or picked on by the other dragons since he was so different, but like all beings, only sought acceptance... one way or another, but since he saw he could not get that, he became bitter, angry, and decided to take extreme measures

but the theory you made is really interesting, but that would make Seath just a big pushover... AND I LOVE SEATH, DON'T DARE TO SAY HE'S WEAK, HE DA BOMB!!! XD joking, but i liked that, brings interesting discussions (although i find it very very unlikely)

menzinho wrote:The dragons are on fire because of the fire the witches made rain, and yeah i forgot about the tail, but i doubt the blood is only his, and his scream sounds like that everytime he screams, but maybe he has a small amount of remorse, since he did it mainly for his own need to be immortal (via Primordial Crystal, item he pillaged from the dragons)

i take he's a really selfish and bitter being, who was different and just wanted to be like everyone else, immortal, everlasting, and scaled, maybe he was left out or picked on by the other dragons since he was so different, but like all beings, only sought acceptance... one way or another, but since he saw he could not get that, he became bitter, angry, and decided to take extreme measures

but the theory you made is really interesting, but that would make Seath just a big pushover... AND I LOVE SEATH, DON'T DARE TO SAY HE'S WEAK, HE DA BOMB!!! XD joking, but i liked that, brings interesting discussions (although i find it very very unlikely)

I'm not saying he's weak, I'm saying he's CLEVER. The dragons were getting beaten anyway. The combat scenes in the intro show the dragons barely even getting to attack. Whether or not he actually betrayed the dragons BEFORE they were wiped out, it still seems likely that he sided with the winners for his own advantage. He's crazy, he's not an idiot.

i agree that seath is just bitter from being different but is has just occured to me that (while i still sevearly doubt gwyndolen is being controlled by seath) the gods prehaps couldnt have beaten seath because they did'nt know the source of his immortality. it is logan who finds this out ot the player when they take a lucky chance on a perculier crysal while exploring. i think the firstborn by his own failures is living in exile and the gods reilising seaths power and seemingly indistructability choose to leave. all exept gwyndolen who chooses to remain to protect his fathers gravefrom defilement. possibly he gradually goes insane or possibly he thinks you are a defiler which is why he attacks you.

also i'll say this for him - seath is the hardest boss to beat in the first playthrough, i always leave him till last

I found very interesting the note pointed that the Firstborn was disgraced by siding with humans maybe by trying to find a different way to maintain bonfires without humanity, thus doing something wrong, losing the annals, and the others were like "you like these mortals so much... then you'll become one of them" and bam... poor Firstborn was cast away, but i still strongly thing Gwyndolin had something to do with his fall, i mean cmon, he must've hated the guy a lot, and and envy is kind of powerful in this game, since so many characters share it, why would Gwyndolin be diferent

also Seath is a BEEEEAST, he's hard as freaking hell, his crystal explosion always gets me... damn it, but something you said i agree, there is no way Seath is controlling Gwyndolin, since... you know... he does not care... hes crazy and Gwyndolin wants you to link the fire so he can rule as lord of sunlight, that is pretty clear now, due to Gwynevere's illusion dialogue she tells us to follow Framp, who wants us to link the flame, there, Gwyndolin is behind it all, i'm sure of it

The whole timeline in this is a little screwy. Also, although so many people say it with so much faith, there is no evidence that Gwyndolin is behind the link to the flame ending.

There's also no evidence as to WHY the GoW lost his divinity, besides "Losing the Annals because of his foolishness." It could literally be anything from "he turned traitor", to "he let someone just walk away with them."