The "Bad Guy" in Dark Souls

i admit that sounds like what ive been thinking

Ah, alright. Thank you, Shkar. Some hostility came up in me regarding that and I did react to it in part of my post. I apologize and thank you for helping me with that.
I think that the endings just put one of the dualistic forces (Fire and Dark) over the other. Fire is a collection of irresponsible tyrants and Dark is a terrorist faction that rose in resistance to Fire. Neither of them nor the people they both want to be in charge of are right or completely innocent.

Acarnatia wrote:Ah, alright. Thank you, Shkar. Some hostility came up in me regarding that and I did react to it in part of my post. I apologize and thank you for helping me with that.
I think that the endings just put one of the dualistic forces (Fire and Dark) over the other. Fire is a collection of irresponsible tyrants and Dark is a terrorist faction that rose in resistance to Fire. Neither of them nor the people they both want to be in charge of are right or completely innocent.

It's cool. We typically don't debate too much, but I'll just let you know that I tend to refer to multiple people in the longer posts I do.

I completely agree with the second part. Neither side IS perfect. I will even concede the possibility that, morally, the leaders that would arise in the dark ending would be better for humanity than the current system.

However, I cannot believe that a world of dark would be better, since it would be completely stagnant. Without life, there could be no children, no birth, no growth. Without death, there could be no death. There would be no light, no dark, and quite possibly no difference at all.

Best case scenario is that the people currently alive live forever with no possible way out, which would likely even include the gods, since it's not like they would just vanish when the flame dies. So, best case scenario, humans are forced to live in endless puragtory with the gods alongside them.

Worst case scenario, every possible manner of difference is neutralized. Intelligence, temperature, sentience, movement. Every single thing on the planet immediately hardens into stone, including the air and water.

Opposed to that is linking the fire, where there may be some countries where tyrants continue to rule. I'll concede the possibility that some of the religions are tyrannical, and it seems fairly obvious that teh earl of Carim is a brutal dictator, but at the very least the average person would have some freedom. We know that there are earldoms, duchies, and cities that are ruled by humans; surely life must be worth living somewhere.

if i might ask a question. shkar you said the differences would possibly go away and things turn to stone and all that but if thats the case then what would kaathe get out of it? sure if we all lived forever he might like that but kaathe doesnt seem like a... thing that would do something that stupid especially since it really doesnt benefit him in any way. this is all to say if he really is evil with evil intents and even if he isnt he still wouldnt do that becuase even good...beings dont just screw all of humanity over or at least not generally. Also i dont believe your best case scenario is correct because for one thing most of the gods are dead and i would bet that the dark lord would go after to kill them as well so i imagine the world might have a chance to be a better place. Besides the fire taught people that their is a light and a dark side so i dont understand how there wouldnt be a light or dark how life and death and all that other examples wouldnt exist because the dark lord put out the flame. its like the idea that keeping the flame alive will take out the undead curse which i dont believeit would and if anything i feel it would make it stay and have it get worse. all this to say with how ive percevied things and what i know i cant say i feel that keeping the fire going is a good idea id sooner snuff it out. and yes it was me who said thatgwyn resisted the course of nature as thats what kaathe has said and i was using that as a way to prove a point.

twilightwarwolf wrote:if i might ask a question. shkar you said the differences would possibly go away and things turn to stone and all that but if thats the case then what would kaathe get out of it? sure if we all lived forever he might like that but kaathe doesnt seem like a... thing that would do something that stupid especially since it really doesnt benefit him in any way. this is all to say if he really is evil with evil intents and even if he isnt he still wouldnt do that becuase even good...beings dont just screw all of humanity over or at least not generally. Also i dont believe your best case scenario is correct because for one thing most of the gods are dead and i would bet that the dark lord would go after to kill them as well so i imagine the world might have a chance to be a better place. Besides the fire taught people that their is a light and a dark side so i dont understand how there wouldnt be a light or dark how life and death and all that other examples wouldnt exist because the dark lord put out the flame. its like the idea that keeping the flame alive will take out the undead curse which i dont believeit would and if anything i feel it would make it stay and have it get worse. all this to say with how ive percevied things and what i know i cant say i feel that keeping the fire going is a good idea id sooner snuff it out. and yes it was me who said thatgwyn resisted the course of nature as thats what kaathe has said and i was using that as a way to prove a point.

I agree, we do not know what the idea that the abyss makes everything stone and everything dies doesn't make sense nor is proven at all. In fact, what we know for sure is that creatures of the abyss and those who have been 'corrupted' by the abyss are aggressive towards people related to the fire. I mean, the four kings doesn't seem to attack eachother, Artorias somewhat allied Manus, and as Arcanatia said, the darkwraiths does not attack eachother (even though this might just be how they act ingame). I feel that the theory that the spread of the abyss will destroy everything and there will be no life after it is just an assumption. As far as I am concerned, there is no evidence for it, and correct me if I am wrong, but I feel that the only ones ingame who say that the spread of abyss is a bad thing are the ones who benefit from the age of fire.

twilightwarwolf wrote:if i might ask a question. shkar you said the differences would possibly go away and things turn to stone and all that but if thats the case then what would kaathe get out of it? sure if we all lived forever he might like that but kaathe doesnt seem like a... thing that would do something that stupid especially since it really doesnt benefit him in any way. this is all to say if he really is evil with evil intents and even if he isnt he still wouldnt do that becuase even good...beings dont just screw all of humanity over or at least not generally. Also i dont believe your best case scenario is correct because for one thing most of the gods are dead and i would bet that the dark lord would go after to kill them as well so i imagine the world might have a chance to be a better place. Besides the fire taught people that their is a light and a dark side so i dont understand how there wouldnt be a light or dark how life and death and all that other examples wouldnt exist because the dark lord put out the flame. its like the idea that keeping the flame alive will take out the undead curse which i dont believeit would and if anything i feel it would make it stay and have it get worse. all this to say with how ive percevied things and what i know i cant say i feel that keeping the fire going is a good idea id sooner snuff it out. and yes it was me who said thatgwyn resisted the course of nature as thats what kaathe has said and i was using that as a way to prove a point.

We have no indication that most of the gods are dead. They left Anor Londo; it says nothing about them dieing. For all we know, there are hundreds still alive.

The flame might destroy all disparity if it burns out, because it is what created it. The flame caused the difference between light and dark, and life an death, and etc. The intro also specifically says that humanity only sees "endless nights" (The sun we see in Anor Londo is an illusion, remember?) and strongly implies that the undead curse is a recent development.

It also links these the flame fading, which makes sense. As the flame fades, it's strength does as well. If the flame is maintaining all of those differences, then it would make sense that they would stop existing (they would become neutral) when the flame went out.

There is no evidence that humans would survive the flame dieing but the gods wouldn't. Either they both die, or they both "live" with life and death eliminated.

If they don't blink out of existence and nothing can die, then they are stuck together for all time.

And if the gods are truly as "evil" as some people like to say they are, I doubt the humans would be very happy to be stuck with them.

Shkar wrote:

twilightwarwolf wrote:if i might ask a question. shkar you said the differences would possibly go away and things turn to stone and all that but if thats the case then what would kaathe get out of it? sure if we all lived forever he might like that but kaathe doesnt seem like a... thing that would do something that stupid especially since it really doesnt benefit him in any way. this is all to say if he really is evil with evil intents and even if he isnt he still wouldnt do that becuase even good...beings dont just screw all of humanity over or at least not generally. Also i dont believe your best case scenario is correct because for one thing most of the gods are dead and i would bet that the dark lord would go after to kill them as well so i imagine the world might have a chance to be a better place. Besides the fire taught people that their is a light and a dark side so i dont understand how there wouldnt be a light or dark how life and death and all that other examples wouldnt exist because the dark lord put out the flame. its like the idea that keeping the flame alive will take out the undead curse which i dont believeit would and if anything i feel it would make it stay and have it get worse. all this to say with how ive percevied things and what i know i cant say i feel that keeping the fire going is a good idea id sooner snuff it out. and yes it was me who said thatgwyn resisted the course of nature as thats what kaathe has said and i was using that as a way to prove a point.

We have no indication that most of the gods are dead. They left Anor Londo; it says nothing about them dieing. For all we know, there are hundreds still alive.

The flame might destroy all disparity if it burns out, because it is what created it. The flame caused the difference between light and dark, and life an death, and etc. The intro also specifically says that humanity only sees "endless nights" (The sun we see in Anor Londo is an illusion, remember?) and strongly implies that the undead curse is a recent development.

It also links these the flame fading, which makes sense. As the flame fades, it's strength does as well. If the flame is maintaining all of those differences, then it would make sense that they would stop existing (they would become neutral) when the flame went out.

There is no evidence that humans would survive the flame dieing but the gods wouldn't. Either they both die, or they both "live" with life and death eliminated.

If they don't blink out of existence and nothing can die, then they are stuck together for all time.

And if the gods are truly as "evil" as some people like to say they are, I doubt the humans would be very happy to be stuck with them.

You are describing the age of the ancients. You are right about there being no light, no dark, no life and no death at that time. However, we don't know what the age of dark/age of man brings.

you never asnwered my question shkar. i asked what would kaathe get out of it? becuase he doesnt seem to be the type of being that would end everything even if he is evil if hes good well more to go against that. also he is right at the age of dragons there wasnt a difference but that has come and gone and the changes are here i find it hard to believe that we would just lose it all in one setting or even over time.

twilightwarwolf wrote:you never asnwered my question shkar. i asked what would kaathe get out of it? becuase he doesnt seem to be the type of being that would end everything even if he is evil if hes good well more to go against that. also he is right at the age of dragons there wasnt a difference but that has come and gone and the changes are here i find it hard to believe that we would just lose it all in one setting or even over time.

Yeah, I forgot about your question as I was typing my response, my bad. Why would Kaathe want to end the age of fire? He certainly doesn't really care too much about humanity, as he sends his mutated followers to go out and brutally suck the life out of them, and doesn't even get upset when his followers die. We have also seen the effects of the Abyss (which he is trying to advance) has on humans. The only ghosts in the game live right next to the Abyss, and we all know what happened in Oolacile.

So maybe Kaathe just enjoys cruelty and wants to make everything suffer. Maybe he wants to live alone and so is trying to kill everything. Maybe he just wants to watch the world burn.

As for disparity ending with the flame, it is already happening, as I've said several times. You don't find it suspicious that the sun has stopped it's cycle and the undead curse started up when the flame started to die?

Shkar wrote:

twilightwarwolf wrote:you never asnwered my question shkar. i asked what would kaathe get out of it? becuase he doesnt seem to be the type of being that would end everything even if he is evil if hes good well more to go against that. also he is right at the age of dragons there wasnt a difference but that has come and gone and the changes are here i find it hard to believe that we would just lose it all in one setting or even over time.

Yeah, I forgot about your question as I was typing my response, my bad. Why would Kaathe want to end the age of fire? He certainly doesn't really care too much about humanity, as he sends his mutated followers to go out and brutally suck the life out of them, and doesn't even get upset when his followers die. We have also seen the effects of the Abyss (which he is trying to advance) has on humans. The only ghosts in the game live right next to the Abyss, and we all know what happened in Oolacile.

So maybe Kaathe just enjoys cruelty and wants to make everything suffer. Maybe he wants to live alone and so is trying to kill everything. Maybe he just wants to watch the world burn.

As for disparity ending with the flame, it is already happening, as I've said several times. You don't find it suspicious that the sun has stopped it's cycle and the undead curse started up when the flame started to die?

The reason there as ghosts in New Londo is because the place was flooded, as far as I know. Also, yes, we can see that people affected by the abyss are aggressive towards those who aren't, but do they attack eachother? Doesn't really seem so.
Also, there might be endless nights and endless days, but life and death? People still die, and people still live at this point in the game, so what happens later can't be known for sure.

ok as for the cycle how has is stopped? and for the curse where does it say it recently started? i seriously get the idea it was there WAY back when for evidence Leeroy is an undead and he ages old so im fairly well certain this isnt just a new thing. And if thats what kaathe wants i can see that but why does no one ever seem to suspect frampt of evil? i personally find him more towards the side if evil (partially because he sides to wanting the flames kept which i feel wouldnt help.)

Thymos wrote:

Shkar wrote:

twilightwarwolf wrote:you never asnwered my question shkar. i asked what would kaathe get out of it? becuase he doesnt seem to be the type of being that would end everything even if he is evil if hes good well more to go against that. also he is right at the age of dragons there wasnt a difference but that has come and gone and the changes are here i find it hard to believe that we would just lose it all in one setting or even over time.

Yeah, I forgot about your question as I was typing my response, my bad. Why would Kaathe want to end the age of fire? He certainly doesn't really care too much about humanity, as he sends his mutated followers to go out and brutally suck the life out of them, and doesn't even get upset when his followers die. We have also seen the effects of the Abyss (which he is trying to advance) has on humans. The only ghosts in the game live right next to the Abyss, and we all know what happened in Oolacile.

So maybe Kaathe just enjoys cruelty and wants to make everything suffer. Maybe he wants to live alone and so is trying to kill everything. Maybe he just wants to watch the world burn.

As for disparity ending with the flame, it is already happening, as I've said several times. You don't find it suspicious that the sun has stopped it's cycle and the undead curse started up when the flame started to die?

The reason there as ghosts in New Londo is because the place was flooded, as far as I know. Also, yes, we can see that people affected by the abyss are aggressive towards those who aren't, but do they attack eachother? Doesn't really seem so.
Also, there might be endless nights and endless days, but life and death? People still die, and people still live at this point in the game, so what happens later can't be known for sure.

I never said he life and death part was universal - yet. If I recall, there is some dialogue that hints that the rate at which the dark sign appears has been increasing.

And while yes, the ghosts are indeed because the place was flooded, there is no reason why they should have turned into ghosts when there was surely a large amount of violent death everywhere else. Why aren't the people scorched by the bridge wyvern, or eaten by the undead chefs hanging around as ghosts? I find it very strange that only people killed by drowning would return as ghosts, so it seems far more likely that it is the result of proximity to the Abyss.


As for mobs not fighting each other, that may have more to do with programming limitations than an in-game reason. The in-game AI, though certainly devious at time, isn't exactly the smartest. They may have tried to have mobs fight each other at one point and scrapped the idea due to it looking clunky or causing an intensive use of resources.

The annihilation of the Flame will not necessarily return the world to a state parallel to the Age of Ancients. I have always thought that the Flame was now functioning as basically a generator that powered each god or goddess's vast magical and divine powers and that by letting it die, their power source would die and they would be left with only his or her own natural, innate power, which will leave them collectively much weaker than the forces of the Abyss. Letting the Flame die will cause this, and the Abyss will spread unchecked across the world. Linking the Fire will 'fix' this generator.
The intro says "... and now man sees not light, but only endless nights. And amongst the living are seen carriers of the accursed Darksign." This strongly implies that the Darksign only began appearing at however much time after the First Flame began to die. Considering everything that happened around one thousand years ago (the creation of the Bed of Chaos, Gwyn linking the Fires) I hypothesize that undead first began appearing a little over one thousand years ago which was however many years after the beginning of the Age of Fire and was one of the reasons that Gwyn linked the Fire and possibly one of the reasons the Witch of Izalith was working on making a second Flame.

twilightwarwolf wrote:ok as for the cycle how has is stopped? and for the curse where does it say it recently started? i seriously get the idea it was there WAY back when for evidence Leeroy is an undead and he ages old so im fairly well certain this isnt just a new thing. And if thats what kaathe wants i can see that but why does no one ever seem to suspect frampt of evil? i personally find him more towards the side if evil (partially because he sides to wanting the flames kept which i feel wouldnt help.)

"But soon, the flames will fade, and only Dark will remain.Even now, there are only embers, and man sees not light, but only endless nights.
And amongst the living are seen, carriers of the accursed Darksign."

The syntax suggests that the undead curse is recent. It is also supported by the fact that wooden structures are still standing in Lordran, despite having been abandoned.

As for how the cycle stopped, it would just be because the flame is fading. Think about it; if you use a generator to turn on a light bulb (the flame "turning on" disparity) and then turn off the generator, what happens to the light bulb?

ok well in your defense i was talking to the fie keeper and she did say that linking the flame would end the curse. as for the the syntax that sounds more like there are so many of them that they are seen among the living now rather than before thus recently it has appeared because they cant just hide it anymore. and endless nights i believe refers more to an emotional or mental stand point where without the gods they see nothing not the literal darkness forever.

twilightwarwolf wrote:ok well in your defense i was talking to the fie keeper and she did say that linking the flame would end the curse. as for the the syntax that sounds more like there are so many of them that they are seen among the living now rather than before thus recently it has appeared because they cant just hide it anymore. and endless nights i believe refers more to an emotional or mental stand point where without the gods they see nothing not the literal darkness forever.

There's really not too much to go on for the beginning of the curse if you consider it alone, so it's not worth debating that.

As for the sun, however, I find it unlikely that Anor Londo would need an illusory sun if the sun was working as normal.

Shkar wrote:

twilightwarwolf wrote:ok well in your defense i was talking to the fie keeper and she did say that linking the flame would end the curse. as for the the syntax that sounds more like there are so many of them that they are seen among the living now rather than before thus recently it has appeared because they cant just hide it anymore. and endless nights i believe refers more to an emotional or mental stand point where without the gods they see nothing not the literal darkness forever.

There's really not too much to go on for the beginning of the curse if you consider it alone, so it's not worth debating that.

As for the sun, however, I find it unlikely that Anor Londo would need an illusory sun if the sun was working as normal.

Is the sun an illusion in general? Or is time just convoluted to the point of seemingly endless daytime?

DissidentCitizen wrote:

Shkar wrote:

twilightwarwolf wrote:ok well in your defense i was talking to the fie keeper and she did say that linking the flame would end the curse. as for the the syntax that sounds more like there are so many of them that they are seen among the living now rather than before thus recently it has appeared because they cant just hide it anymore. and endless nights i believe refers more to an emotional or mental stand point where without the gods they see nothing not the literal darkness forever.

There's really not too much to go on for the beginning of the curse if you consider it alone, so it's not worth debating that.

As for the sun, however, I find it unlikely that Anor Londo would need an illusory sun if the sun was working as normal.

Is the sun an illusion in general? Or is time just convoluted to the point of seemingly endless daytime?

There's no evidence to support that unfortunately. We only have Solaire's word that time has gone awry, and even then the invasion/co-op system and Manu's kidnapping of the player is more indicative of the fabric of space-time weakening as opposed to twisting and looping.

In other words, "Time" being messed up allows one to hop between worlds, not actually mess with time travel or anything similar.

However, if time was convoluted in that manner, it would help support that the sun has stopped it's cycle, and as such would go more towards endless night than endless day, since the intro says as much.

Dark Londo is an oddity in that its... Dark. But so is Darkroot Garden.

Why nowhere else? Hmmm...

DissidentCitizen wrote:Dark Londo is an oddity in that its... Dark. But so is Darkroot Garden.

Why nowhere else? Hmmm...

They had to cut a sizeable amount of content due to time constraints. It's quite possible that giving every zone it's own "night" version was one of them.

i hate it when they do that they just need to make the games right instead of this hurring up crap.

no one ever things that everything is bad, good and neutral all at once. this is the beauty of dark souls, you have so many people out to become number 1 that it eventually becomes a muddled mess of grey. there is no light, even the fabled sunbros could be seen as bad by several of the other power heads. most people say there are 2 endings but i see a third. do nothing and be a DW/CATBRO/DRAGONBRO/KILLSINNERSBRO. and even these guys had their own ultimate ends. the point of this game is to see a whole bunch of different "kings" and choose one. whether it be kaathe or avalene.

The bad guy in Dark Souls?

You.

that seems all very interesting about gwyndolin being the bad guy. I do have some questions though, because Gwyn linked the fire to save the Gods. From what I understand is that he shared his Lord Soul with others*, thus the Gods attained their Godliness from him, right? Well, I've read that Gwyndolin was BORN with an affinity to the moon. Now if Gwyn, Lord of Sunlight, shared his soul/power with the other "Gods", then would that mean that they're all connected to him and the flame? Also if Gwyndolin was BORN with an affinity to the MOON, does that mean he wouldn't necessarily be affected by the flame?

Now I began thinking, well Gwyn obviously had to spurt into his wife and thus through the magic of sperm meets egg, chromosomes, and DNA miracles, Gwyndolin would be born. So he obviously share his genetic makeup with Gwyn, but does that necessarily mean that the Lord Soul and the power was passed down through DNA? Or did he just inherit his abilities through a mutation, or possibly his mother side? I mean after all, his "moon" traits are, somewhat, polar opposites of "Sunlight"

What I'm trying to get at is, if he has these "natural" abilities or just passed down from his mother, would he retain his status/power, if the flame dies out? If so, could that be an incentive to be in cahoots with the serpents and the whole Dark Lord agenda. I mean he supposed to have a deep admiration for his father, but that could be all an act, since we learn of how deceitful he can be...Illusion of Gwynevere, sun, blade of the darkmoon as a front to protect the secrets, and ect...

On a side note, Gwyn had both his firstborn and Gwynevere, both with an affinity for the Sun. Gwyndolin with the moon. Was that just a mutation or was Gwyn out pumping some other woman, I mean what if maybe Velka. Both Gwyndolin and Velka punish the sinners. But then why would she be his mistress, hahaha she's supposed to be an example, but then again no one is perfect and people in high places have some deep closets for their skeletons. Also, this one is a more farfetched speculation, but what if Gwyn is Priscilla's father...which would mean that he....pumped....a... :shock:

Just wondering on this stuff, man I love the lore and the possibilities

*=this excludes the other three who also obtained the Lord Souls (Nito, Witch of Izalith, Pygmy)

you know i never thought of the that. to be honest that really does make more sense. and your ideas that maybe it was from another woman are also possible ill have to think on this more.