Covenants vs Lore

I never paid much attention to the lore in Dark Souls. I'm a gameplay oriented player, I focus on weapons, move-sets, and builds. So when NPCs speak, I never really pay much attention. So maybe all this is just me understanding things wrong, but I have a question in regards to covenants and their ties to the lore. Well, those I'm mostly concerned with right now are Darkwraiths vs Sunbros and Darkmoons.

Kaathe, the leader of the Darkwraiths, wants you to kill Gwyn to put an end to the Age of Fire. So why would he run a covenant who's goal is to hinder other players on their way to kill Gwyn?

A thought occurs to me: Kaathe doesn't just want to end the age of fire, right? He wants Gwyn's true successor to bring forth the age of man. So I guess what we're doing is weeding out those who aren't the true successors. Possible?

The Sunbros puzzle me, mostly because I haven't bothered to figure out who the covenant leader is, so figuring out his motives is nebulous. All I know about Solaire is he's looking for his sun, so I don't even know why he bothers to advance through Lordran at all, let alone help you! But aren't the Warriors of Sunlight, in some way, tied to Gwyn's family? (And this could be where I'm totally wrong.) So why would their covenant be the one that facilitates your progress toward your final showdown against the lord of cinder himself?

If I follow my DW logic, it could be because they want to make your path as easy as possible, so you're not adequately prepared for your final battle. And, also opposite to DW: so all but Gwyn's true successor make it. But with so many unworthy adventurers challenging Gwyn you'd think eventually he'd get exhausted and one of them would kill him, so it's a flawed plan from the start!

And Darkmoons, which are directly tied to Gwyn's family, go a step further than Sunbros since their purpose is to punish those that try and prevent you from reaching Gwyn! Does Gwyndolin have patricidal ambitions?

Color me thoroughly confused!

Since I have a habit of thinking through questioning, and answering my own questions, and also I'm lazy and don't feel like editing my whole post to turn it into the form of a question, it has now become a discussion! What are your interpretations of the covenants' goals, and their ties to Lordran's lore? Specifically, with regards to player progression toward Gwyn and end-game outcome.

The Darkwraiths goal is too gather humanity from the Undead. Most of the players are opting for a Linking the Fire ending, so somewhat they are preventing them to doing so. Other than that, their only goal is to suck the hell out of humanity from their fellow Undead.

The Sunbros leader is the God of War and Solaire is like a interim leader representing him, since the God of War is dead. ( he is the most devout of the sunbros, you can even join the covenant through him). The God of War's goal is to kill his Hollowed father and link the fire to continue the Age of Fire, the age of the Gods.

The Darkmoons most immediate goal and purpose is to punish the Guilty, although they are trying diminish Darkwraith numbers and thus aiming for a link the fire ending. They are just doing their job, they canmot bypass the guilty even if they are fellow Chosen Undead trying to link the fire. I hope Acid can give you a better explanation, as I am not so fluid with words, lol.

Well, I'm not satisfied with your view of Darkwraiths because it completely ignores Kaathe's desires. But you do make a good connection about the Darkmoons that I had failed to make. Since the Darkwraiths, followers of Kaathe, are the ones who are supposed to bring an end to the age of fire, then it would make sense for the followers of the son of Gwyn to want to kill them specifically and keep the age of fire going. If killing the chosen ones means making it easier for the unworthy to reach Gwyn, then so be it, they won't end the age of fire anyways. So that spiel about "killing the sinners" is a bunch of bs after all!

I think I have already talked about this.

The Darkwraiths are following the path of Kaathe, before the Four Kings became what they are, and has corrupted the undead (who seemingly are of Carim origin) into the Darkwraiths, with the rest either escaping and hollowing and mourning the flooded world, or turning to ghosts that hunt explorers. Kaathe says things, some are true yes, but not the whole. For one, they say that the descendant of the undead warrior, in which is speculated to be the Pygmy, removed the age of fire, and started the age of darkness the first time. However, due to some complicated occurences after it, Gwyn was forced to light it once again. Kaathe, in turn, disagreed with this new lighting, and believed the Age of Darkness began then, even though it caused the strife of the Chaos Demons, and so forth. As Kaathe is a beast of the Abyss (the dark plain between the real world and ash lake. Yes, you can tell from tomb of giants), he seeks the Age of Darkness, so that the world can strive in dark once more. Why he does maybe for the goal of following the path of the fire extinguisher, but more so of personal goals, in the arrogance in which caused the Chaos Flame to strive, as well as him being a serpent that strives from the Dark.

The Darkwraiths are in the art of the pure form and essence of the Dark (which is actually part of the Age of Fire, as the prologue describes the flame). using the art of Humanity, the minions use such powers to harvest and gain humanity, in which in turn makes them stronger, and allows them to either make them stronger form bonfires OR give them to Kaathe for more absorbation and ties to the Dark. The Darkwraiths are an Anarchic Covenant that is a free for all for as much Humanity is possible, for one Undead Warrior to be proclaimed as the Next Dark Lord, as the one before has disappeared. Such examples of power include the Four Kings, as the Dark allows the Four Kings to duplicate and use a blasting power similar to Nito.

The Sunbros are the Warriors of Sunlight. As it follows the same ideals as that of the God of War, it is a covenant of the mighty warriors who seek for the joy of battle, similar to how the description of the items and miracles of the God of War describe him as. Using the power of the Sun, the same as what his Father used, he only believed in the power of the Arm. The Sun Warriors, being somewhat Anarchic as well, is less devastating to fellow Warriors of Sunlight, believing in Strength of Numbers. As their is no assigned leader, as many who join do so by the alter of the shattered being (which may or may not be the God of War), Solaire acts as the idol of such a covenant, and in turn is seen as a somewhat leader, even though he is not.

The last, the Darkmoon Blades, is similar to that of the Darkwraiths in terms of hunting, however humanity is not their goal. Instead they function similar to that of the Forest Hunters. They are warriors of the Dark Sun Gwyndolin, who uses the power of the moon, or more so the Soul, to protect Anor Londo in the Chaotic world of the Flame Wars (yes, I said it). They hunt Sinners, beings who have harmed the Gods, and also Hunt those who broke their covenants in the world of Lordran, taking the ear as a 'trophy' to Gwyndolin in the end. As they hunt more, they gain more power from Gwyndolin, giving the power of the Darkmoon Miracle, known as the Darkmoon Blade. Such Warriors are designed to hunt sinners, with most being those who disrespect the world of Anor Londo (which is in the rule of Gwyndolin) as well as acting as a Justice Warrior Covenant for those who break their covenants. As well, they also hunt down those who kill fellow brethren in Lordran as well.

Let me see if I understand you:

- The Darkwraiths farm humanity selfishly to become the strongest warrior and most worthy of [putting out or rekindling?] the primordial flame.

- Sunbros don't give a damn they just want to fight.

- Darkmoon punish those who harmed the gods, broke covenants, etc.

Darkwraiths, fine, makes sense--lines up lore, covenant's goals, and their actions. Sunbros isn't much of a tie to Gwyn, but if that's all there is, I'll take it. Darkmoon, though, I'm not too satisfied with. Unless I misinterpreted what you said, the problem I have with your explanation is that what constitutes a sin vs what the covenant stands for and what they do are all completely different. Why do the darkmoons care if you break another covenant's oath/ harm a god/ harm another player? And if they do have a good reason for caring, what does it have to do with punishing people and how does it relate to aiding or hindering the progress of players towards the final confrontation with Gwyndolin's own father, no less.

You see, it seems to me like the Darkmoon covenant should have the strongest ties to lore, its leader being the son of the end boss and all. Does Gwyndolin care either way whether his father eats a sword for dinner or not? And if he cares, what does his covenant do in order to facilitate or hinder the player's progression toward Gwyn? Way I see it is the Darkmoons prey on the Darkwraiths who pray on anyone trying to beat a boss. Therefore the Darkmoons, by eliminating the player's enemy the Darkwraiths, facilitate the player's progression toward Gwyn. But that doesn't make sense to me. So I'm searching for an explanation, in lore and in the covenant's goals, to justify those actions. I'm trying to line up lore, covenant goals, and covenant actions, like you did for the Darkwraiths, because right now they're not lining up at all for me.

I'm on an IPod right now. But I will explain it once I got a proper keyboard. I got an answer for the Darkmoon, as maybe I do need to explain it further. It is complicated, but in the end makes sense.

The Darkmoon Covenant is an odd thing indeed. As the absence of Velka is absent to resolve sin herself, Gwyndolin acts as her replacement in Lordran. As the sun is the symbol of order, Gwyndolin seeks to obtain the same sun as Gwyn, being awed and fascinated by the Sun ever so. That is why, instead of marking himself as a Moon Deity, he proclaims himself as the Dark Sun.

Gwyndolin seeks to follow a similar trend to what his father symbolized, in the chaotic world that Lordran is now. As those who break their covenant is proclaimed as a rogue, they would be breaking their stance of order, as they break away from the order that they had tied themselves to. So, in order to represent himself as a Sun Deity, he hunts down oathbreakers and sinners of order, in order to proclaim himself to what his father was, even though he was raised by the moon, in which he was raised as a Maiden. Gwyndolin's serpent legs, maiden status, and him being the only good brings the question as of why he has transformed, however Seath is very close by, and might have been used towards a similar fate as Seath's failed ecperiments, being as both the failed and him have similar texture and leggings. Even more so, his ties to him have the same song as the Butterfly, Seath's creation, also helps the idea as well, even the fact that most of Lordran is an illusion, similar to that of Seath's Prisoner, Dusk of Ooacile.

As Gwyndolin resides in Anor Londo, he uses Anor Londo as a testing Ground, for those who go must reach the illusive goddess Gwynevre to get the Lordvessel. However some kill her as well, in which they se the true world of Anor Londo, which is in Dark. As Gwyndolin tries to protect the secrets of Anor Londo and his family, he proclaims the killers of the illusionists goddess to have sinned against the gods, and in such ways orders those of his covenant to hunt then down. Only those who absolve their sins can allow a peaceful connection to Gwyndolin, in a somewhat paid debt to the crimes they have did instead.

He does not care for his father, for his father has become warped and changed by the flame, in which he has transformed into the Lord of Cinder (which later becomes hollow). As Gwyndolin seeks to bring order, he sets the chosen undead to kill and bring the flame up once more, in order to bring the order that once was. Similar to catching lightning in a bottle again. He does not care for his father, for he knows that his father is already lost, already hollow (as hinted by Gwynevre). As Gwyndolin seeks to find order, to become like his father, he sees the being of Kirn to be expendable, as he knows that his father is already lost.

The Darkwraiths are the opposite of Order, and more so similar to that of Chaos, being as they are anarchic murderers. As Gwyndolin tries to obtain the status as his father was, it can be said that he hunts down the Darkwraiths to bring order, and also the justice in what Kaathe had did to the citizens of New Londo. As the Darkmoon are of Order, and the Darkwraiths of Chaos, it can be said that the two fight at different sides of a coin.

Hope that clarifies. Tell me if I missed anything.

Yeah, that sounds pretty good. Gwyndolin wants 2 things: to set himself up as a deity, and to continue the age of fire. As a deity, he wants to preserve order. Toward that end he creates illusions and hunts down those who cause chaos. And some of those who cause chaos happen to be the ones who want to bring forth the age of man, hence why the Darkmoon hunt the Darkwraiths.

His goal is the same as his father, only Gwyndolin doesn't care to preserve his father's existence since he's no longer himself. Instead, Gwyndolin's goals are now egocentric.

I'll take it! Thanks for your help.

No problem

If Gwyndolin is trying to preserve order then why does the wiki list the darkmoons as a chaotic covenant? Surely they should be lawfully aligned?

Is chaotic because in order to be a "good person" you have to be "evil" by killing others

This is more poetic than anything else

Ya, I saw those.

Just to remind you, that the covenant,s even if proclaims as such, does not seemingly 'fit' the covenant. For example, the Princess' Guard being Neutral Good is not so, as the Covenant beyond anything is just an illusive idea, and no good comes from such a covenant in reality, other than the healing process it gives (divine blessing, and the three miracles tied to it, along with ring).

As for the Foresct Covenant, seemingly as it is tied towards the Darkwraiths, Kaathe, and others, it can be said that the forest is not 'true neutral'. That part of the covenant is debate-ably wrong in this case.

I have never found any lawful substance towards the Warriors of Sunlight, as the group merily just comes and goes as such, helping those who summon them. Their is no lawfulness, and more so are very chaotic, as all the warriors of sunlight are scattered across the world at different times and space. If you say that working together is lawful, than the princess guard should be classified as such more so than the Warriors of Sunlight, as they are designed to keep the group together.

The Wiki objection of the Covenants, whether they are from the guide book or not, are wrong. It is what it is. Unless I can see other proof, it is wrong in these regards.

And Caphril... heh, Chaotic is not defined as "Evil". Maybe for the likely view of a Lord as Gwyn, but the Chaos Covenant might say otherwise.

Ya, it's been pointed out a few times that the alignment on the covenants page is bs! It's just been like that since the start of the wiki, and we kept it that way because we didn't see a need to change it or thought people wouldn't read into it too much...