For the Glory of Alvina

Many thanks. Was working on the MLGS, when I use that char I'll keep that in mind. Incidentally, how was the "Forest of the Damned"? I started hunting that night but didn't know about the event until the day after.

Quarik wrote:Many thanks. Was working on the MLGS, when I use that char I'll keep that in mind. Incidentally, how was the "Forest of the Damned"? I started hunting that night but didn't know about the event until the day after.

I think it turned out pretty good. Since the event I have seen hosts use the services of red spirits more than white/yellow now. I believe this is because reds cannot be harmed by the environment therefore the increase use of them by hosts. I really believe any campers who compared that day to others would have been wondering why hunters are acting more aggressive and what is the reason for the high invasion rate. We were successful with our coordinated efforts to rid the forest of campers, gankers, etc - I am confident we made the campers wonder what the heck is going on. It was also a very good period to test out new strategies, tactics, weapons, etc since it was very likely another hunter would invade to provide back-up which allowed you some leeway on trying different things.

Maybe we will schedule another such event since the forest is such an active area which I believe will remain so - gankers, farmers simply cannot resist the temptation to bang hunters for jollies.

Good hunting and let me know if you would like any other recommendations on how to increase your chances of survival & victory as a servant of Alvina. If you are on XBOX shoot me a friend request so maybe we can do some hunting in tandem - my tag on the forum is the same as my tag on the XBL.

I've been having hosts who remember me disconnect as i spawn lol.

Remember that while reds are safe from mobs, it also rules out them using any aoe spell and makes them vulnerable to hitting each other with the bigger weapons. i'll have to go "undercover" to spread some mayhem from within.

Forum Pirate wrote:I've been having hosts who remember me disconnect as i spawn lol.

Remember that while reds are safe from mobs, it also rules out them using any aoe spell and makes them vulnerable to hitting each other with the bigger weapons. i'll have to go "undercover" to spread some mayhem from within.

Forum Pirate - great nugget of knowledge. I did not know reds could not use AoE spells, specifically, do you mean something like Bountiful Sunlight or TWoP? Yeah - knew about reds being able to hit one another but I have very seldomly invaded in which it was a 1v2v1 (a host, two reds and dark blue invader - this happened to me the other day though - I was able to kill the host by using his lack of patience against him - he was felled by the trents.) The two reds just kinda hung back and watched the host and I fight it out.

I'm not an expert with CSS, but I have been trying to get better with an INT build in the forest that uses it so here are my thoughts:

1) Surprise the target. Since you're usually facing 2-3 people, don't target the obvious one charging right at you. This is risky if the closest person is fast, but I've had a lot of success when I've strung out a bunch of farmers by running around, and then I turn around and instead of targeting the guy trying to gank me, I target his buddy following up behind him. What often happens is the guy right in front of you thinks he's targeted (they should be roughly in a line so it's hard to tell which you are facing), so he rolls away -- keeping him from hitting you. At the same time, the guy behind him loses reaction time by basically only realizing he's in trouble once the spear clears the guy in front of him and comes straight at him. Done properly, you've scared the guy close to you into dodging away, while actually spearing his friend right in the face. Good farmers will roll past you for a BS attempt so you still need to stay mobile, but this can put the fear of Alvina in them for sure.

2) Use the mobs or another FH ally. It obviously becomes much, much easier to hit people when they have multiple targets as they may be distracted, not roll in the right direction, etc. Again, this is an opportunity to play games with your targeting. Let's say it's a 2v2, with each FH fighting one farmer. Target your friend's farmer, not the one attacking you. Again, this will likely surprise both of them, and with good spacing you can again get your near attacker to instead roll away, while surprising your friend's enemy and spearing him in the back. Your friend may then kill him quickly if he even survives, then help 2v1 your enemy.

3) Off hand your catalyst. Using a shield and a catalyst is just an invitation to a greatsword spamfest. Off handing your catalyst keeps farmers honest by still making them worry about backstabs. Rely on dodging instead of blocking. Also, as far as we can tell, a CSS temporarily destroys any poise the target has. If you hit someone with with a CSS, IMMEDIATELY try to stunlock them with your main weapon. I use either an enchanted balder side sword +5 or a balder side sword +15 with the cmw buff. This works even on guys in full havels or giants gear, and often surprises them. Of course you may not have time if pressed, but the CSS stagger should be good for at least a few hits.

4) Practice practice practice. Seems obvious, but getting good with the CSS's range and tracking can really make a difference. It has good tracking but not a particularly big hitbox, which is actually an advantage in the forest trees. I've a number of hilarious kills where someone tried to flask behind a tree and by just shifting a bit to one side I was able to hook a CSS right around to kill them with a shoulder hit.

I'll add my two cents with the scythe question. If you have a lot invested in dex and some in strength definitely look into it. It seems slow (and it kinda is) but if you know when to strike it makes for a great option. A +15 great scythe does roughly 4 damage less than the Lifehunt with my setup (40 dex, 39 str). Since you seem to like sorcery than you should have access to Crystal Magic Weapon. This will make the Great Scythe outclass the Lifehunt by a wide margin, resins will by a small margin and the upper echelon miracles are silly at making the great scythe a devastating weapon. Depending on armor setups in the forest I've ranged from 300 per hit (unbuffed typically) to well over 700 per hit (buffed with the power of the sun, now in convenient 20 oz. bottles and running R1 two handed).

Quick summary of attack strategies, the R2 attack (one or two handed) does a very wide sweep which can hit multiple foes with ease, and almost to persons directly behind you. The R1 balances this by doing an overhand with a very NARROW hit box. Both types of attacks recovery is highly dependent on whether you hit or not. If you miss either one your character will pause for a moment before being able to swing again so you MUST know how to dodge well. If you miss your opponent has a great shot at you. If you hit the recoil means good repetition but to take advantage you have to be pretty sure your first one will strike as you need to decide quickly if you are hitting again or dodging. So it can be tricky. Making it tougher.....it's heavy enough to stun lock or shield break average opponents but you'll lose your stamina before a tank does meaning you need to pick your strikes all the more carefully. You can't just keep going and count on the last hit or two doing damage.

So why would you use a weapon that won't do insane damage, won't stun lock/shield break easily and is likely to be slow without expertise?
1. It can hit around and through obstacles better than most weapons
2. You can hit more than one person
3. The wide attack range of the R2 means that, with practice, you can often hit persons coming out of a roll
4. The overhand attacks take a small amount of stamina so if you have someone locked in, you can hit them MANY times. With a buffed weapon or Lifehunt they are dead for certain, even if vitality built
5. The range is second to only bows/ranged attacks in my experience. I have seen more than my fair share of great sword, katana and black knight ax users whiff the air in front of me and get sliced despite neither of us moving.
6. The two handed R1 attack while running is a forward jump that is very quick, does high damage and seems to have an elevated shield break ability. I find that once I have shown the range off and that patience means "I hit you, good luck hitting me" people will look for more space. I say give it to them plus a little more, two hand it and charge, this attack done a few in this manner often breaks guard or better yet creates panic
7. It looks cool

Lifehunt vs. Great Scythe debate:
It all comes down to aggression level. The Lifehunt's bleed ability favors a more aggressive playstyle. If you can hit them repeatedly the bleed will do all the work you need. For more conservative fighters the great scythe does more damage when buffed for sure and has a slight range advantage. It also causes bleed but not as quickly.

skarekrow13 wrote:I'll add my two cents with the scythe question. If you have a lot invested in dex and some in strength definitely look into it. It seems slow (and it kinda is) but if you know when to strike it makes for a great option. A +15 great scythe does roughly 4 damage less than the Lifehunt with my setup (40 dex, 39 str). Since you seem to like sorcery than you should have access to Crystal Magic Weapon. This will make the Great Scythe outclass the Lifehunt by a wide margin, resins will by a small margin and the upper echelon miracles are silly at making the great scythe a devastating weapon. Depending on armor setups in the forest I've ranged from 300 per hit (unbuffed typically) to well over 700 per hit (buffed with the power of the sun, now in convenient 20 oz. bottles and running R1 two handed).

Quick summary of attack strategies, the R2 attack (one or two handed) does a very wide sweep which can hit multiple foes with ease, and almost to persons directly behind you. The R1 balances this by doing an overhand with a very NARROW hit box. Both types of attacks recovery is highly dependent on whether you hit or not. If you miss either one your character will pause for a moment before being able to swing again so you MUST know how to dodge well. If you miss your opponent has a great shot at you. If you hit the recoil means good repetition but to take advantage you have to be pretty sure your first one will strike as you need to decide quickly if you are hitting again or dodging. So it can be tricky. Making it tougher.....it's heavy enough to stun lock or shield break average opponents but you'll lose your stamina before a tank does meaning you need to pick your strikes all the more carefully. You can't just keep going and count on the last hit or two doing damage.

So why would you use a weapon that won't do insane damage, won't stun lock/shield break easily and is likely to be slow without expertise?
1. It can hit around and through obstacles better than most weapons
2. You can hit more than one person
3. The wide attack range of the R2 means that, with practice, you can often hit persons coming out of a roll
4. The overhand attacks take a small amount of stamina so if you have someone locked in, you can hit them MANY times. With a buffed weapon or Lifehunt they are dead for certain, even if vitality built
5. The range is second to only bows/ranged attacks in my experience. I have seen more than my fair share of great sword, katana and black knight ax users whiff the air in front of me and get sliced despite neither of us moving.
6. The two handed R1 attack while running is a forward jump that is very quick, does high damage and seems to have an elevated shield break ability. I find that once I have shown the range off and that patience means "I hit you, good luck hitting me" people will look for more space. I say give it to them plus a little more, two hand it and charge, this attack done a few in this manner often breaks guard or better yet creates panic
7. It looks cool

Lifehunt vs. Great Scythe debate:
It all comes down to aggression level. The Lifehunt's bleed ability favors a more aggressive playstyle. If you can hit them repeatedly the bleed will do all the work you need. For more conservative fighters the great scythe does more damage when buffed for sure and has a slight range advantage. It also causes bleed but not as quickly.

Skare - this is excellent information. I am not a Great Scythe user (my +15 is sitting in one of Alvina's closets collecting dust) but I am going to start trying it out with this information in mind.

Another superb GS user has spoken regarding the effectiveness of this weapon.

I started a new char specifically for the scythes, my mage wouldn't have worked. Getting my faith up to thirty for sunlight blade, and my dex up until the damage increase is insignificant. I just got the GS from a dive into the catacombs, and wow, it's pretty fantastic. I'm broke, so it's not upgraded at all, but when it is... Thanks for the tips though. Also, what's the deal with rapier/estoc/mail breaker? It seems like they have an invisible buff to crits, but I haven't seen any hard evidence of that.

Here's a tip. If you can inflict any sort of status problem on a person, DO IT! Poison knives, Rotten resin, any of the mist clouds. I've been experimenting with the Rotten Pine Resin, and I found that it'll cause people to mess up more. They want to end it so they can heal, and if you can lower their life significantly while they'e poisoned, they are sure to run away to flask, giving you the chance to end it.

Personal favorite is Acid Surge, specially to the guys who use dragon weapons for the flashy 2h r2s

Incidentally, it turns out that if you kick Shiva's bodyguard off the cliff carefully, Shiva won't aggro until you quit and reload. After I did this I ran away and cleansed my sin without harming him, and what do you know, he's in Blighttown, vendoring it up. With his bodyguard. Oh, and I got a decent kill on a couple of farmers. Led the sunbro to the big mushies and fought 1v3. The host decided to stay on the other side of the bridge and got killed by another hunter while he was alone. 'twas great, if kinda random. "Big ups" to the sunbro though, he fought honorably (for a farmer).

cloudyeki wrote:Here's a tip. If you can inflict any sort of status problem on a person, DO IT! Poison knives, Rotten resin, any of the mist clouds. I've been experimenting with the Rotten Pine Resin, and I found that it'll cause people to mess up more. They want to end it so they can heal, and if you can lower their life significantly while they'e poisoned, they are sure to run away to flask, giving you the chance to end it.

Personal favorite is Acid Surge, specially to the guys who use dragon weapons for the flashy 2h r2s

I would agree - my main buff when I invade the forest is Rotten resin (poison). I usually keep a weapon coated with it at all times when I invade. It is a great disruption tool - hosts and their minions will slighty panic when the effect kicks in which usually provides an opening to press the attack . I don't let them even try to look for blossom in their inventory - they better have blossoms already quick slotted.

Skare - I have been playing around the GS with mixed results. I did not listen to your instructions regarding managing staminia with this weapon and lost a fight I should have won (well I could have killed the red spirit I was fighting with WoG since he was down to sliver of his life due to blood loss - but the intent of my invasion was to become familiar with the GS so I didn't use it). Once thing I did note - when you whip the GS out - everyone single one of my opponents changed up their style of play - it is very interesting how the sudden appearance of the GS can disrupt your opponent's playbook.

I do like the range of the GS though so I will keep practicing with it - especially when I invade. In my opinion the only way you will learn a weapons effectiveness (or the moveset) is to use it when your life is on the line. I will continue to report my progress with this weapon since I can see a nice place for it in the old weapons rack.

Still learning people, still learning....

Good point. I toyed with claws and rapiers some and noticed a spike in aggression. There was a lack of respect for these weapons (at least in my "not yet good at parrying" hands). I think farmers are used to having the edge on range and are put off when the tables are turned. However, the stamina and hitbox weirdness of the scythe lends me to believe that most aren't committed to learning how to take advantage as I don't see too many farmers using them. For poison I tried the resin but like the spike in damage from other buffs. I quick slot poison knives and will start hucking them at people if needed. I don't find many turtles but when I do this is fun. I once got one mad and he tried to be more aggressive. He eventually won but I spent at least five or six minutes just dodging (practice for me) his great sword and throwing an occasional knife. He must have been sweating bullets too because there was another hunter in the trees watching his every move.

Bonus point that better warriors can amuse themselves with. If you haven't already done it.....riposte someone with the scythe. The animation is positively brutal. I won't spoil it for anyone yet to see but I will hint that all they did was borrow the animation from another classes set but with the scythe it's almost sickening to watch. Bonus bonus point from my undead burg practice sessions (see: waiting between invasions): The window of opportunity can be huge for this weapon. I try to make a fluid committed button mash from parry to riposte so that the two button clicks are almost merged. This works great. Sometimes I miss it though and have hit the R1 pretty much as the hollow soldier is getting ready to return fire and still landed the riposte successfully. I have gotten this consistently and with no other apparent wonkiness apparent in the game.

Starting to get a bit back into the Dark Souls groove, still a on a bit of a vacation after the event.

A small note on dodging bleed. Bleed ignores lag, it ignores dodging. If the weapon contacts with your body during invincibility frames frames your bleed still increases. This can be both useful and a pain. As you can still be bled out without actually ever being hit. However, if you time it right you can give yourself a bleed effect while invincible, adding a chance to get the bleed dodge down correctly.

Sorry for the short one, but still trying to get back into the groove as I said.

Tolvo wrote:Starting to get a bit back into the Dark Souls groove, still a on a bit of a vacation after the event.

A small note on dodging bleed. Bleed ignores lag, it ignores dodging. If the weapon contacts with your body during invincibility frames frames your bleed still increases. This can be both useful and a pain. As you can still be bled out without actually ever being hit. However, if you time it right you can give yourself a bleed effect while invincible, adding a chance to get the bleed dodge down correctly.

Sorry for the short one, but still trying to get back into the groove as I said.

Tolvo - I heard that. I had to step away from DkS for a bit myself after the mass invasion - now the bloodthirsty need to kill campers is returning plus Alvina's mad at me since I haven't come to visit her in awhile. What is hunter to do - but exterminate gankers in order to feed the need.

I am back my fellow anti-ganking comrades!!

We are glad to have you back on duty broke, and Tolvo take as much time as you need. I might have to try using the lifehunt again, for both the moveset and the bleed.

cloudyeki wrote:We are glad to have you back on duty broke, and Tolvo take as much time as you need. I might have to try using the lifehunt again, for both the moveset and the bleed.

Cloudyeki - glad to back bro. We will fight till our last breath if need be while enjoying every minute of it !!!

Hey, anybody know if the hawk ring does anything for crossbow type weapons? I'm working on a FH archer build and want to make sure I know all my options.

That's a good question. Unless you're crazy good at targeting with the camera though I'm not sure you'd need all that distance. I think the sniper crossbow already has a range of 50 which is beyond lock on range already I believe. Interesting idea

Yeah, that's where I was headed. The regular crossbows have 50, but according to the wiki the sniper has actually got 70 range, even longer than the pharis bow. That seems ridiculous -- unless there is some way to effectively use it w/o lockon, which I admittedly have never tried. And if you could then stack the hawk ring with it, it could be extremely fun.

I've done some "non-lock on" research with throwing knives and it's a beast to do. Pretty much I resorted to throwing one and adjusting off of that. It's not fast but it can be done. I was able to get decent at hitting the boulder giant in Sen's (the one that feeds the traps) from pretty far away. That was a big target though and still took some adjustment throws most times. Might have interesting applications if you can get good at it though. Particularly from your sniper tower we discussed before. That'd be what 115 range if the wiki is accurate? (it could be accurate too, I thought it was 50 but haven't broke that thing out in forever)

Keep us posted good sir! I am intrigued

befowler wrote:Yeah, that's where I was headed. The regular crossbows have 50, but according to the wiki the sniper has actually got 70 range, even longer than the pharis bow. That seems ridiculous -- unless there is some way to effectively use it w/o lockon, which I admittedly have never tried. And if you could then stack the hawk ring with it, it could be extremely fun.

That is an interesting question. Technically, I would the think the Hawk ring would increase your range with the sniper crossbow (any crossbow for that matter). Befowler - please keep us abreast of your testing with the Hawk Ring and crossbows - this could be another usable tactic in the forest. The only crossbow I use on the regular is my Light Avelyne so ur findings may be very useful to me.

On a side note - since the mass invasion - I have repeatedly invaded the forest only to find a host and 1-2 red phantoms (no whites or yellows) - does anyone now the maximum number of phantoms that can invade the forest at any one time? And does each type of phantom (blue,red,white,yellow) have their own invasion slot allotment. In short, if I invade and the host has two red phantoms assisting him (which happened to me recently) would this prevent another hunter from invading? In this instance is one of the red phantoms taking up a blue (hunter) invasion slot?

So many questions.....

This video is not entirely what we need (and is heavy xbow instead of sniper), but has some good ideas:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=su1_Ir3D6X4

The range seems crazy even with the heavy xbow - I think he kills that turtle hollow in the back first somehow. Using binoculars before each shot would be terribly impractical in PvP...unless you're up in a sniper tower nobody can see or reach . Given how little drop crossbow bolts seem to have in general, sniper crossbow + sniper bolts could = true forest fun, plus you can even use binoculars like a spotter! The increased range on a sniper crossbow may just mean it does full damage from a greater distance, which is almost as good anyway. I'll try to test tonight.

On brokewilly's phantoms question, I know you can get two darkwraiths in your world pretty easily if you trigger a RSS and get invaded separately. In other words, the RSS darkwraith doesn't count as a regular darkwraith. So farmers may be doing that if they think they can get friendly darkwraiths to help them out. I've seen it in the burg in the past and it did not preclude the host from also having two white/sunbro summons -- so if it works the same in the forest in theory a host could 5v1 you that way. I don't know how it affects FH or DMB invasions.

5v1? I think I might need more trees!

You can use the nocs as always to target something before using your Crossbow, but I find moving while adjusting the camera to be much better. Sometimes in the forest to harass farmers I no lock on with my Av and Hawks ring which does increase crossbow range, I pump out Lightning Bolts and hit them from afar, it usually catches people off guard and some ask if I have a mod that lets me lock on from a range. The trick is learning the arc and where they will go, if you direct your camera somewhere and hold up as you do it, your character should aim the crossbow at just about the centre. Hope this helps.

Good tips tolvo. Also, what do you think about sniper bolts? Do they have any real effect on range? I was trying to decide between medium distance avelyn for increased odds that at least 1 bolt hits (albeit with less dmg) vs. very long distance sniper crossbow + sniper bolts for harrassment and possible middling dmg. In particular, I'd like to be able to stand off completely, so maybe hawk + ring of fog if I can get the distance from a sniper crossbow.