Your opinion on exploits such as Dead angling or Lag abuse?

I think maybe this thread should just be shut down before things get really vile.

Why? No one is calling anyone any names or anything like that, nor is anyone violating any rules.

Hack and glitch are different things.

As he said, on is illigal and is a bannable offence, where one is acting purely within the game.

Ie one is cheating, changing the rules (even when fairly benign), one is exploiting loopholes in the rules to do things not necessarily accounted for by the creaters of said rules (devs,) even when decidedly malicious.

As the rules of the game are those programmed, one could logically argue, "in game=fair game," where one could not argue the same of hacking, which is unambigiously cheating, even if the hacker gains no advantage.

Animal both you and I have been pretty condescending, Mein has also come off as such to me but without tone it's hard to tell.  This always seems like the moment before the storm.

Fair enough.

BUT, no one has broken any rules and I would like to see some statements defended.
(maybe the off topic rule  )

Also @pirate.

Ya, we know, I'm just saying the whole "fair game" argument needs common sense in order be fully realized.

Hacking a skin for the mask and using certain glitches have a distinct difference on advantages and disadvantages considering competitive play. Simply saying "everyone can do it" is a horrible argument shared by almost everyone in this forum and on the planet.

If that were the case, then let's just all "Walk the walk of death".

Moral of the story: Common sense trumps logic and technicalities at times, and vise-versa.

I'd say I mind TWoD, or whatever you wish to call it as long as we understand each other less then Dead Angles and Toggle Escape.

If you spawn into TWoD you're dead. Same as if you spawn into a group of modding gankers. The thing about TWoD is that it has a strict time limit. If you can manage to keep out of it's range for this time limit and won't let your opponent do TWoD again, he's toasted and you won. It does give an overwhelming and unfair advantage, but it is not perfect. Unless you spawn into it, you still have a chance to survive and win.

Now imagine a guy with 0 Poise and with a greatshield. Sure, why have Poise if you can block everything, huh? But then out of the blue, I can Dead Angle, ignore his shield and perhaps stunlock him to death. He is then forced to use Toggle Escape, or die. With the use of DA I just made his build absolete and useless, because I could ignore his only form of defence, which he was relying on.
btw this actually happened to me just today, although I stunlocked the guy with a Shotel instead.

I can't put the words right and don't have as huge vocabuary as Forum and Mein, but I still try.
Plus this insane heat just makes my brain melt.

What I wanted to say, that once someone uses Dead Angle, you are forced to evade the attack, or to Toggle Escape from the hit you just received (you know, Zwei stuff). In essence, this puts you into the same spot as if you face a TWoD user, because both of these rob you of your ability to block/parry and force you to evade. However, TWoD is telegraphed by the buffing of the weapon, which can be prevented, or interrupted, whilst Dead Angle can be used anytime. The results when you fail to evade, are usually the same. Death.

@no one in particular

TWoD can also dead angle.

Also, if you have the room to flee from TWoD, then they have the room to "recast" it.

You can also get some INSANE damage from TWoD.

TWoD is ridiculous and should be removed...hack or not.

I can appreciate an argument that points out minor inaccuracies in someone's statement here and there, but ignoring common sense and trying to defend it with technicalities is ignorant and foolish to me.

I feel this is where the argument went, and also feel I have a right to opinionate on it.  Not everyone believes in "play to win"....some people believe in "play for fun".  Unfortunately, "playing for fun" is very subjective.  Even though TONS of people can agree on what is "fun" and what is "not fun".

The opinions on TWoD are shared by almost everyone, and rightly so.

O_O
I wasn't trying to defend TWoD, or anything. I simply wanted to show that all of these "exploits" share the same danger.

I wasn't saying you were.

And I agree to an extent.  I'm just pointing out that TWoD can be worse than some hacks/glitches and some hacks/glitches are relatively harmless.

For example dead angles.

I haven't made a mid-roller in idk how long, so they are not much of an issue for me.  However, I can understand the plight in which a mid-rolling heavy shield user would experience when encountering someone who's proficient at dead angles.

Can you still roll through them? Yes.  Are you at a clear disadvantage? Yes.

I'm just saying there comes a time when something is obviously op, and trying to say those opinions are "subjective" is technically correct, but oblivious to the translation realized in game.

The title of the thread starts with "Your opinion" and I think the whole "If its in the game, its fair game" dissolves the responsibility of the poster to justify their opinion.

Which is all I'm really trying to demonstrate.

All of my builds fast roll and mostly use Dex weapons. All, but one. This one build is the exact opposite. It's a heavy, fat rolling tank in almost full Havel's armor, even with his greatshield. I made him because I was sick of evading every single spell aimed at me. I wanted to just raise my shield and laugh at the spells I had to evade, or die before and at best crush the puny sorcerer with a huge hammer. It usually works and I really enjoy playing like this, even if I lose most of my fights thanks to roll bs fishers. But I don't mind those, it's my own lack of skill that gave them the win and so I must improve and learn to fight them. However as soon as someone comes and Dead Angles WoG / Force / Dragon Roar / or any other similar AoE I can't do anything. I will eat full extent fo the attacks damage through my shield and with fat roll, even if I do evade it, I'll get hit with the second one, or get backstabbed as I finish the roll. Not to mention getting staggered and backstabbed, which I can't defend against with such a build. I even tried turning away, to face in the opposite direction to the DA user to block the attack. It worked, I blocked the attack, but now, my back is facing my enemy and since backstabs are client side, even if I turn around as quickly as possible, I still get backstabbed anyway. I have a big hammer, so I can't use my weapon to cancel that bs, because its slow.

Build like this is perfectly viable in PvP, but Dead Angles completely ruin it, because it can't defend against them.

^ That's EXACTLY why I disagree with the whole "dead angles add depth to the meta".

Imo, the only thing DAs do are add a layer of complexity to the current meta. Removing dead angles would expand the meta by expanding build possibilities and forcing people to deal with turtles in, imo, a legitimate fashion.

There are many ways to go around it. Bulds like that are rare. Very rare, but I'm sure you all, just like me fought at least one, or two of the pure Str tanks.

All my builds (except for SL 1 and the tank build) have at least 14 Dex and so they can use Shotel, even if elemental one. Shotel is easy to use and fast enough to evade trading with such builds. Even if that fails, you can use spells do do chip damage and break their shields. Force and hammers are great to rip through shields even without DAs. Bleed, Poison, Toxic are also good options. All they require is patience. If the guy will want to heal, kick him to interrupt the animation and give him a good smacking. You can also bait him into an attack and roll backstab fish him this way. There's so many ways to deal with turtles and tanks, but they require time, patience and strategy and that's why turtles are frowned upon. I think it's because people are simply lazy and don't want to deal with them and use this to justify using Dead Angles against them. Unless you go R1 crazy and all pro leet skills you suck, are boring and people don't want to fight you, or at least that's how I perceive the local mentality when it comes to dealing with turtles.

I fought a newcommer to the game and he turtled a lot. Why? Because it's effective. People hate on turtling just like on camping. Makes no sense to me. The person who introduced me to this newbie apologised to me for his turtling. I was like "Why mate, he does an excellent job!" In the end he even got me and I had to come up with a plan to defeat him. It was fun.

Ya, I agree.  There's definitely more than one way to skin a cat.

Also, the increased viability with shields, the parry animation differences, and the overall diversity of shield selections leads me to believe dead angles are NOT intentional. Why spend all that time making shields viable for pvp this time around only to leave in dead angles??? Makes no sense to me.

I believe they are too difficult to remove.  The entire combat mechanic system would have to be altered.

Also, I agree so much with what you said because I actually like long duels.  Which is why I support hard humanity healing in dueling environments.

I was fighting a guy in the Demon Ruins a couple days ago that had a brilliant set up for using hard humanity.  The duel lasted a good 4-5 minutes.  I FINALLY got a good punish in and ended the fight, but I feel he won from a pure skill perspective imo.  I think what happened is he did one of those "delayed rolls" before his heal, it threw off his timing.

I haven't been on in a few days, and this thread exploded. 4 more pages o_o'

Hacks are to some measure inherently gamebreaking because they bring in effects that are simply not possible within the established rules. The same holds true, though often are less gamebreaking in my experience and by what I've nearly always heard other players say,than hacks. And, then, the game developers occasionally make mistakes, or the players came up with a technique/combination in the game that they didn't expect and apparently was/is overpowered. FromSoft has nerfed things ito what they thought was a more reasonable level, (as we can surmise by that they did it in patches) such as greatswords and the family masks; others were so unbalanced when exploited in an unpredicted way that they nerfed into borderline or even true obsolesence, such as hp regen from DeS to Dark and the Crystal Ring Shield. Certain in-game elements can be overpowered.
On note for TWoP, Most of my builds are exactly or within 1-2 units of his maximum

fast rolling weight. Most people I face who use TWoP run faster than my character, even if they have 60+ poise and are carrying a UGS. Even if I just turn and sprint, unlocked and shield down, they usually overtake me in what looks like they should be med-rolling, meaning I can almost never get away from TWoP, even in the Forest.
And, in regards to the more techical/linguistic side of this-I offer up the words of these men
http://c2.com/cgi/wiki?DifferenceBetweenTheoryAndPractice
Theory, logic and fallacy are useful and have their place. However, they do not necessarily lead to the truth, because all of the information necessary to come to an accurate conclusion may not be present. That information is generally regarded as being acquired in practice/experience-what Aaanimal is talking about. My own experience has been that TWoP is currently one of the most gamebreaking elements in Dark if abused,

regardless of whether it was combined with a hack, glitch, or another supposedly legitimate in-game element. This is more information that I offer to you to consider for your hypthesis; in practice, it is apparently not correct. Certain in-game elements can, and in my experience, often are, as or more gamebreaking than outside elements such as hacking. I invite you to revise your hypothesis and put forward another one.

Oh, so there aren't things people don't find acceptable?  Excuse me for thinking people have opinions of their own Mein.

Not what I claimed.  I claimed we have no objective gathering of opinions as a whole that would allow us to conclude what is on average acceptable vs what isn't.  If you check what I quoted when I did so, you'll see why I said that.

The majority of people that speak don't find backstabs acceptable, does he think they'd also find a glitch that lets you stunlock people while slowing them and dealing large amounts of damage is acceptable?  There is being technical, and then there is being blind. 

I said that in some circumstances, TWoD is less outcome-altering than toggle escapes and dead angles...especially toggle escapes when not doing one = death.  Avoiding sure death certainly sounds outcome-altering.

My original position is that it doesn't make sense to find some outcome-altering glitches acceptable and not others, especially when which one provides the most benefit is variable (IE cases where one can simply run away from TWoD, while you can't run away from an opponent's toggle escape).

No worries though, I won't resort to name-calling.

Yes.  If your argument was made of sound constructs (justifying TWoD against a gank squad is a weak argument) then I would agree.

I didn't justify the use of TWoD against gank squads.  I pointed out that gank squads can mimic its efficacy without glitching.  I request that you review my actual argument before arguing against it.

Also, trying to essentially demonize people for using the word "hack" instead of "glitch" when making a blanket statement or a joke is trivial.

Pointing out an inaccuracy is not demonizing someone.  Certainly, some of the claims about it being a hack even on this thread do not carry connotations of a joke, but rather an actual claim.  Not necessarily by you though.  If anybody is being demonized, it's the people who use this glitch, and it isn't by me.

If anyone actually cares, I don't like any of these glitches, including the commonly-utilized toggle escapes and DA (the latter which I use heavily, the former which I use when I can).  Despite using them myself, I would happily push for both of them and TWoD to be patched out.  They all alter the game's balance and at least to some extent overcentralize it as far as I can tell.  TWoD probably the least of the 3, despite being "cheaper", because the counter to it is generally running away which any build can do during standard invasions.  In pre-arranged duals you'd just ban it, and possibly all of them, or avoid pre-arranged duels.

That above paragraph is my opinion.  The reality, however, is that it is silly to claim that "everyone" or "almost everyone" finds something unacceptable without evidence, then to also claim that other game-changing glitches are perfectly fine.  Dead angles completely maul greatshields, while toggle escapes trivialize a good chunk of weapons as well as the poise mechanic itself.  TWoD *might* trivialize everything, if it can land, but often it can't.  It takes a good 5+ seconds to set TWoD up, because of how the glitch is enacted.  The buffing takes longer than usual and is distinctive relative to other buffs (as if the weapon itself isn't enough of a tell), and then the R2 has to actually be used before the person seeing this set up gets out of range to stall out the buff duration.  It wouldn't even be easy to land TWoD on someone in the burg, let alone places like the forest.

So yes, the glitches many find acceptable while finding TWoD unacceptable can and often do have more impact on the outcome of a fight than TWoD.  That is the core of my argument...that all 3 of these are game-altering glitches and should be viewed as such, and used as per one's preferences to use them or not absent agreeing (ahead of time) to rules to the contrary.

The title of the thread starts with "Your opinion" and I think the whole "If its in the game, its fair game" dissolves the responsibility of the poster to justify their opinion.

I've justified my position.  Now, feel free to justify yours without "appeal to masses" (IE what everyone thinks), appealing to some undefined notion of "common sense" (essentially framing your opiniong as accurate without fact), or other fallacies .

^TL;DR

@Arcarnatia

Well said.  

You didn't call one person illogical, false, or use any other hidden form of speech to insinuate they are dumb. You didn't make yourself sound self righteous or anything of the sort.

 

People aren't false.  Their statements are.  There is a difference.  One's argumentative position shares a similar situation.

That said, it's pretty hard to argue against no argument.  I certainly am interested in the justification for hate on one game-changing glitch and not on others that do the same thing.  Surely the limit of that position is not accusations of what I've done (pretty interesting to say things like that after saying TL;DR --> "too long, didn't read" --> if you didn't read all of it, how are you making such a conclusion anyway?).

The topic of this thread is about the glitches, not about the people in the thread, and not about selectively name calling people based on using 0-3 of them.

I think that, like myself, perhaps it is that Dead Angles and Toggles are carry overs from DeS that while game altering they are more readily accepted by the community than other glitches such as TwoD

I've explained before why I find DA and toggle acceptable to use and have used against me so I wont bore the thread with that again.

I am interested however in exactly how you believe DA and toggle overcentralize the meta game. Many of the lauded "try hard" tactics don't make heavy employ. Spear Turtling isn't really using dead angles, and while katanas *can* dead angle a buffed Uchi isn't used often to dead angle. People say Str weapons are handicapped by toggle escapes, but the success found in large/great club rolling attacks into backstabs would suggest otherwise. The now infamous Zaphanders are also a weapon said to have one of it's primary advantages crippled by toggles, though I do concede that Zweis are one of the more common weapons used for dead angling. Dark magic is another tactic that is both strong and gets a lot of attention from the community, while to the best of my knowledge neither pursuers nor dark bead can dead angle.

Of course any build can employ a toggle should the situation arise, there are still tactics that rely on a stun of some sort and they are successful.

I'm not saying that these things(DA, toggle) have no effect on the game, it is more that "over centralizing" is a strong statement and I'd like to hear more about your opinions on it.

I'm not saying that these things(DA, toggle) have no effect on the game, it is more that "over centralizing" is a strong statement and I'd like to hear more about your opinions on it.

Fair enough.  I feel that they cut down on the viability of stunlock weapons and blocking respectively, and not just in the turtling sense.  Dead angling is probably at its worst with WoG, whereas really skillful players can toggle out of hitstuns consistently, and that *can* impact the viability of setups that rely on them, or would otherwise have an advantage in terms of trades.

Does that completely overcentralize the game?  No.  However, a big part of my argument is the comparing that overcentralization to what happens with TWoD.  Unless someone catches you in an R2 after freely tumble-buffing from out of range (or on spawn, though that's dicey for them unless they have help), in most situations it's possible to simply run from it.  Even if it became more prevalent, it also wouldn't really kill any currently popular build, instead it would just turn a fight into a stall fest, excepting situations such as casting GMB on a magic-based TWoD and whatnot, but I'll ignore those.  The stone sword itself is fairly heavy, too, and it should be rather flagrantly obvious when someone is trying to buff it.  Either backstab them while they try or get out of there.

So perhaps DA and TE don't completely alter the game, they just alter it.  The same can be said for TWoD in some cases.  For example, vs a zwei TE and DA are both more relevant than TWoD in areas like forest, catacombs, burg, township, anor londo, and any other area where you can run to stall a buff.  Even the kiln might be long enough...not sure about that one.  In the arena TWoD is stronger than the other two.

But they're all glitches and all problematic, holdovers or not.

A key difference being that, without a way to circumvent a block (ie throws), there is no reasonably feasable way to deal with a good great shield turtle, or even a mid shield turtle, without overcentralising (as in everyone has to have a shotel.) bleed almost works, as there are more weapons that do it (and many of them are light enough to not hinder a build,) but the bleed dodge wrecks that.

As I've said before, if there was a reasonable way to circumvent turtling, I'd be fine with dead angles being gone. As is, I'm glad they're there.




I care little about the toggle escape. I use it when it matters, but I run higher poise builds most of the time, so I'm not stunned often enough for it to be a big part of my playing, and i just hitstun bs with heavy weapons, so its a non issue for me on that side as well.




TWOD does not share the "necessary evil" lable, in that it does not provide options where there were none, but instead removes all options in the instances that it works.

Considering how twod was supposed to be fixed in patch 1.06, what with fixing spell swapping, Obviously the developers do not think it is fair.

The problem is people just found another way to do it.

Besides non-enchantable weapons are non-enchantable for a reason.

Wait, wait, wait. These things aren't dead yet?!!?

Well either way, I haven't seen too much spell swapping in pvp so I don't really care.

And using glitches/modding in pvp against gankers is worse than ganking at a spawn. No, if you need mods/glitches to kill gankers than you need to fight more gankers because this shouldn't be an issue.

Counters to greatshield turtles without shotel or glitching:

1.  Status effects.  Bleed (if it worked properly, and no reason it couldn't be patched to ignore I frames if one were to actually patch DA), toxic, poison, backstab the turtle if he tries to moss (or just hit him). 
2.  Kick the shield repeatedly unless he's using a faster weapon than a kick. 
3.  Also any of the 50+ poise break weapons 2h can rip shields up enough that trying to follow up with attacks after blocking isn't feasible. 

Because greatshields can't parry, there is no threat of that while spamming them.

So not only do you have the potential for magic chip, you have status effects, hammers/axes, and shotel.  Pretty much any major stat you opt to invest into will have one of these things to counter a shield, and some will have multiple options.

There are the methods the game built in to handle great shields.  They're heavy and require significant investment just to use them, making very diffiicult to also fast roll unless at very high levels or running elemental weapons.  You don't "need" dead angles to deal with them.  Dead angles are no more a *necessary* feature than TWoD.  I suspect most people find TWoD more annoying because it's either "instant death" or "stall this out by running", neither of which involve actually fighting.  I'd be surprised if it won more random invasions than DA though if everyone knew about both.

But what if instead of TWoD, people are using the glitch to "only" sunlight blade buff a lightning weapon?  Still necessarily worse than DA?  Not so clear all of a sudden.  I haven't seen one, but a SLB buffed lightning falchion would probably be really annoying lol.