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FruitPunchNinja

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Back stabbing. a deeper look.

eva_dracona: Posts : 7
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Location : Australia

Post n°1

Back stabbing. a deeper look.

Post by eva_dracona Fri May 18, 2012 2:16 am

Hey Eva Dracona here!

I've been thinking recently that there should be an update to dark souls wch removes back stabbing (from PVP only) i want anyone who reads this to be honest. how often does back stab add depth to any PVP situation?
i cant count the amount of times people just back stab fish me or back stab chain becasue they cant win in a legitemate fight. its frustrating its cheap and its broken, some times i feel like im getting BS'd from a mile away or from the front even.
i know that these things can occur due to latency diferences but i digress... back stabs DONT make pvp better. and i think it should be removed.

WyrmHero: Lordvessel; Posts : 8742
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Post n°2

Re: Back stabbing. a deeper look.

Post by WyrmHero Fri May 18, 2012 2:28 am

Try Fight Club (FC), you'll love it. Rule #1 is no backstabs. I have a fight club with backstabs, there are ways to counter them and we practice for almost any kind of situation so we can hone our skills.

mugenis4real: Insomniac; Posts : 1213
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Post n°3

Re: Back stabbing. a deeper look.

Post by mugenis4real Fri May 18, 2012 2:34 am

Ive been meaning to join FC actually...but yea backstabbing really annoys me when your up against a Fisher and at those times I actually wouldn't mind backstabbing being removed from Dark Souls entirely but when someone swings a heavy weapon and leaves themselves open to a backstab then in a way it does add depth. It forces you to time your swings or get punished.

Rynn: Chosen Undead; Posts : 4689
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Post n°4

Re: Back stabbing. a deeper look.

Post by Rynn Fri May 18, 2012 2:39 am

Mugen, no. The punishment for missing your swing should be your opponent hitting you and getting counter damage, not backstabbing you. There is purely no occasion where it adds depth, that didn't already have a better and more fair mechanic in place instead. Counter Damage for missed swings, not a backstab.

eva_dracona: Posts : 7
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Post n°5

Re: Back stabbing. a deeper look.

Post by eva_dracona Fri May 18, 2012 2:43 am

9 times out of ten when i miss a heavy swing i can dodge out of the animation before they would be behind me i agree with rynn, just regular counter damage is enough punishment, you should even be able to do enough damage for a kill or at least equal to a BS depending on equip/build

mugenis4real: Insomniac; Posts : 1213
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Post n°6

Re: Back stabbing. a deeper look.

Post by mugenis4real Fri May 18, 2012 2:44 am

^You do have a good point but then the rest of Dark Souls would be a drag, no backstabs in PvE...or do you just specifically mean PvP? Like backstabs don't work on other players?

Rynn: Chosen Undead; Posts : 4689
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Post n°7

Re: Back stabbing. a deeper look.

Post by Rynn Fri May 18, 2012 2:46 am

mugenis4real wrote:^You do have a good point but then the rest of Dark Souls would be a drag, no backstabs in PvE...or do you just specifically mean PvP? Like backstabs don't work on other players?

He specifically said remove backstab functionality in PvP. So players couldn't backstab other players.

eva_dracona: Posts : 7
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Post n°8

Re: Back stabbing. a deeper look.

Post by eva_dracona Fri May 18, 2012 2:52 am

yes just PVP, i mean in PvE its a nice way to get items early in your 1st playthough (havels ring, blue tear stone etc). and the hitbox is alot smaller against mobs, in PVP latency makes the hit box about as big as a barn DX

mugenis4real: Insomniac; Posts : 1213
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Post n°9

Re: Back stabbing. a deeper look.

Post by mugenis4real Fri May 18, 2012 3:01 am

Rynn wrote:

mugenis4real wrote:^You do have a good point but then the rest of Dark Souls would be a drag, no backstabs in PvE...or do you just specifically mean PvP? Like backstabs don't work on other players?

He specifically said remove backstab functionality in PvP. So players couldn't backstab other players.

Wow I'm awesome at reading -_-
Now that my shame has passed, do you think an update that removes it will ever come? With all the players out there that just spend hours invading and BS'ing, it doesn't seem likely sad

sad

Rynn: Chosen Undead; Posts : 4689
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Post n°10

Re: Back stabbing. a deeper look.

Post by Rynn Fri May 18, 2012 3:06 am

Do you really think, as a game developer, you'd want people abusing your engine in such a manner?

cloudyeki: Compulsory Poster; Posts : 3685
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Post n°11

Re: Back stabbing. a deeper look.

Post by cloudyeki Fri May 18, 2012 3:06 am

It gives weapons like the bandit's knife purpose in pvp. One thing that you forget is the difference between counter and critical damage. THAT should be reworked. Really the game isn't the most balance, but backstabbing isn't the devil. It's the abuse of lag, combined with poorly balanced equipment that makes backstabs bad.

1) make critical hits only parry reposte and plunging. 2) count backstabs as counters. 3) add a limit to backstabs, such as complete stamina drain to deter chaining.

eva_dracona: Posts : 7
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Post n°12

Re: Back stabbing. a deeper look.

Post by eva_dracona Fri May 18, 2012 3:06 am

Hmm as nice as it would be it seems VERY unlikely. and becuase people like doing it but becase the devs might not see it as an issue.

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Post n°13

Re: Back stabbing. a deeper look.

Post by eva_dracona Fri May 18, 2012 3:15 am

cloudyeki wrote:It's the abuse of lag, combined with poorly balanced equipment that makes backstabs bad.

thats the thing you cant really make lag go away and im not to on top of the stats of all the weapons but they can keep all those modifiers but perhaps have attacking an enemy from behind still do more damage (not to the degree its at now) but take out the animation so you cant chain and fish with it, i mean chaging it to **** your stamina gauge wouldnt matter in the time it takes an enemy to get back up youd have full (mask of child, grass crest shield, green blossom)

cloudyeki: Compulsory Poster; Posts : 3685
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Post n°14

Re: Back stabbing. a deeper look.

Post by cloudyeki Fri May 18, 2012 3:26 am

You forgot the cloranthany ring.

I enjoy the reposte animations. I just wish backstabs could be better managed. It gets dull seeing them strafe you just for a bs, and it's worse when they go at it after you've shown them they'll get punished for it. That's probably my biggest gripe, alot of players can't think outside the box when it comes down to pvp.

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Post n°15

Re: Back stabbing. a deeper look.

Post by eva_dracona Fri May 18, 2012 3:32 am

i agree, i love respote/parry, it looks good and also takes skill to use, ill never have a problem with it. and yea some people TRY and fight with a little respect but as soon as they see they cant win with skill they strat strafeing at you trying to fish that backstab... its... annoying

Katakato: Addicted; Posts : 117
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Post n°16

Re: Back stabbing. a deeper look.

Post by Katakato Fri May 18, 2012 5:51 am

I don't see why everyone has a beef with how backstabs work ?
If you miss with your attack & show your back to an opponent why not get stabed & kicked in the but ?
My only beef is that the way the game works BS-ing can be really and i mean really cheap & does waaaaay to much DMG.
Also, the bloody Hornet Ring, that thing is a monster with NO drawbacks, the Dusk ring has a 50% hp cut when equipped, it's a great ring but how many times did you hear someone complaining about it ? Right, 0 because it has a negative to it's positive, same should be aplied to the Hornet....say, strip away ALL poise while the Hornet is equipped or better yet -75% on your equip weight. (eliminating both Poise & heavy STR weapon BS-ing, to some degree at least)

So, less general dmg on BS (say 70% of what it's doing now)
Hornet nerf
And perhaps a Fatal upgrade path ? (i miss that sad

sad

)

Removing BS altogether would be lame, no exceptions.

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Post n°17

Re: Back stabbing. a deeper look.

Post by Rynn Fri May 18, 2012 6:33 am

Katakato wrote:
If you miss with your attack & show your back to an opponent why not get stabed & kicked in the but ?

I read your entire post, but I stopped caring once you asked me this question.
Backstabs are nearly NEVER used in this manner, and even then, a backstab shouldn't be capable of being used for that! There is this wonderful little thing called counter, it's when you get a 20% damage boost because you hit someone while their weapon was "in motion", meaning directly after they miss an attack. This mechanic is what was intended to punish someone for whiffing, not a backstab.

Katakato: Addicted; Posts : 117
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Post n°18

Re: Back stabbing. a deeper look.

Post by Katakato Fri May 18, 2012 6:44 am

I'm well aware of those pretty counter hits as I'm also aware that 90% of (at least mine) roll BS-es are executed while the opponent is swinging his weapon.

There are many ways to land a BS (most are cheap and dirty lag oriented bull-stabs) but there are also many ways to avoid them.

To those that only fish for BS i say learn to play...that's also my message to those whining BS should be banned. It's a part of the game, learn to deal with it.

Rynn: Chosen Undead; Posts : 4689
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Post n°19

Re: Back stabbing. a deeper look.

Post by Rynn Fri May 18, 2012 6:48 am

I deal with it pretty well. About 95% of all people attempting to backstab me end up dead before the fights over now. I'm not too worried about it. I just find it questionable when anyone claims backstabs being left in PvP is in any form condusive to a better game experience. Backstabs and ganking are the centerpieces of all trolling in this game after all, and I've rarely seen them used in a proper manner. (I can think of 1 times when I got back stabbed in the forest by a very stealthy host. I loved it.)

Federally: Chosen Undead; Posts : 4072
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Post n°20

Re: Back stabbing. a deeper look.

Post by Federally Fri May 18, 2012 6:54 am

Backstabs don't work the way they are implemented. The fact the animation gets interrupted and you're all of a sudden stood up with them warping right behind you is proof enough. The only time a BS makes sense is if they're using an item, healing or some spell casts. Then the victim is actually stood up and wide open.

My solution would be to change when a BS can occur and with what weapons. A Giant *** axe or hamner wouldn't be able to get a backstab while I'm in motion, it should simply get the counter bonus. Now a weapon like the bandit's knife wouldn't be hard to cram in an opponents exposed flank, so small weapons can keep mechanics about as they are. Then just lower BS damage a bit and you're good.

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Post n°21

Re: Back stabbing. a deeper look.

Post by DoughGuy Fri May 18, 2012 6:57 am

Games are meant to be fun. The fun in Dark comes from the challenge. Yes invaders are of the challenge as are hosts that you invade. But getting BSed by people abusing lag and hit boxes is not challenging nor is it fun. It ruins the game for that person. Since you cannot really fix the lag issues the only other solution is changing/removing BS. I'd like to see it changed, especially for large weapons. Bla1ne put it right when he said they shouldnt be able to "grab" with large weps for the BS.
+1 Rynn you are right.

Katakato: Addicted; Posts : 117
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Post n°22

Re: Back stabbing. a deeper look.

Post by Katakato Fri May 18, 2012 6:58 am

90% of the times i get BS-ed i say nothing except "yup, i deserve that" but there are those 10% wtf moments where i just rage at the absurdness of the whole situation and in those 10% 100% is caused bye lag.
So lag is the real enemy here big grin

big grin

But i do admit that the whole trolling part of DkS is lovely to me, not enjoying cheeping out but damn do i love to put a nail in the coffin to one of those cheap trolls and their buddies if they have some.

OT, yes BS is an issue most people find flawed but so are many things in this game, the most we can do is adapt & enjoy the experience.

Federally: Chosen Undead; Posts : 4072
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Post n°23

Re: Back stabbing. a deeper look.

Post by Federally Fri May 18, 2012 7:06 am

Katakato I get the feeling you haven't been backstabbed in the chest nearly as much as I have, and I know the difference between a BS and Riposte. Lag breaks backstabs and FROM failed to address this, since they can't rework the entire network code they need to adjust backstabs.

WhatDoesThePendantDo?

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Post n°24

Re: Back stabbing. a deeper look.

Post by WhatDoesThePendantDo? Fri May 18, 2012 7:11 am

I think there's a difference between fishing/strafing for the backstab and backstabbing someone who is swinging their weapon wildly with no regard for their stamina or the situation. I think in these situations a backstab is more than warranted.

Federally: Chosen Undead; Posts : 4072
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Post n°25

Re: Back stabbing. a deeper look.

Post by Federally Fri May 18, 2012 7:22 am

WhatDoesThePendantDo? wrote:I think there's a difference between fishing/strafing for the backstab and backstabbing someone who is swinging their weapon wildly with no regard for their stamina or the situation. I think in these situations a backstab is more than warranted.

But its broken by lag. More then once I've been backstabbed by someone I was landing attacks on, the backstab animation showed in sort of a mirrored image with them infront of me and the kick at the end sending me flying forward through them. It's ridiculous.

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Re: Back stabbing. a deeper look.

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