Firstborn questions? ( Possible spoilers )

This isn't really about Solaire,Andrei,Orns,etc. This is more about the theory that the character you play is indeed the firstborn son of Lord Gwyn.

When I first heard this theory I was rather skeptical considering you can change the gender of your character in the creation, considering how item descriptions list the firstborn as male. But certain theories really support this idea, so I was more of 60 against 40 for.

Now I'm more of 85-15.

Reasons why? Well to start off I'll quote the theories that really got me starting to think, and I hope he doesn't mind, but these were ( what I'm pretty certain of ) brought up by Shkar.

"1. The player is unique; can light bonfires, can restore humanity, can loop time (Groundhog Day style, you warp back to the start of the game), and learns the sunbro miracles when nobody is around to teach him.

2. The God of War is always referred to as "he", yet male is the default gender people use when they don't care about political correctness.

3. Kaathe says Gwyn has "blurred your past." Who ELSE do we know who has had their past erased?"Now these theories made me 60-40 on the idea.

This next part is my speculation, and it really only applies to the 2nd part brought up by Shkar, but I've never seen this brought up before, someone correct me if it has.

The description to the Undead Asylum F2 West Key says in the last part of it "But even if a hero found a key in Lordran to liberate this prison, would he have the means, or the heart, to ever come back?"

The description says the hero is a male, which not only supports the idea that the default gender is male ( kinda obvious though in my opinion ) , but also links the gender to the firstborn. Another idea is that, even if you choose your character to be a female, no dialouge changes ( from what I know of ), people can still percieve you as a male. Gwyn raised Gwyndolin as a female, with that said I think it's easily possible for him to raise a female as a male. It also supports the idea that, if people throughout history can't even remember the Firstborns name, then it's easy for them to not only forget the gender, but to of misconceived it in the first place.

If you think this is just over speculation of a key, I don't blame you, but this was made to appeal more to the lore nuts out there. Also if this has already been explained/dismissed/discussed, I apoligize for the repost or w.e.

Honestly, though I have played the game multiple times, I'm just now becoming obsessed with the lore. The only argument against our character that I've heard so far relies on gender. The Gwendolyn clue is huge to support you. And let's face it, the endgame has you playing on the same level as Gwyn no matter which ending, right? That to me was the biggest clue (mixed with the other abilities you mentioned). Throw out the gender references, and the case for our character being the first-born seem legit. Now it's just a rationalization regarding the gender flop. Good discussion. I root for either Solaire or me. lol

The female merchant and the Patches recognize your gender though. The first assumption is false, if you read the Rite of Kindling description:

This secret rite allows bonfires to be
bolstered further with Kindling,
so that even more Estus can be collected.
Kindling was a sacred rite passed down among clerics,
but all Undead can imitate the process in the same manner
that they restore their Hollowing with humanity.
How peculiar that humans had found little use for humanity until they turned Undead.


Any Undead can manipulate bonfires, that's why you see the Firekeeper Scar on the Hollows' chest and on your character as well. You see the unlit bonfires because either there are a bunch of Hollows around it that don't mind lighting it, it is unlit in your world or they simply don't want to waste their humanity trying to kindling it. You can see this because almost all NPCs return to Firelink Shrine when there's already a lit and strong bonfire. I don't think the player character is unique in either way, even if Kathee says that he's special in a certain way, in my opinion is just an ordinary Undead in an awesone adventure. If you follow the probability principle, even if it's a small probability, given enough time it will sure to happen. After a 1000 years passed, a "special" Undead escape the Asylum and did the amazing things.

Well to add against this theory, if you are indeed the fallen God of War, it doesn't make much sense why your brother acts like he doesn't know you. Unless he just simply doesn't recognize you.

WyrmHero wrote:The female merchant and the Patches recognize your gender though. The first assumption is false, if you read the Rite of Kindling description:

This secret rite allows bonfires to be
bolstered further with Kindling,
so that even more Estus can be collected.
Kindling was a sacred rite passed down among clerics,
but all Undead can imitate the process in the same manner
that they restore their Hollowing with humanity.
How peculiar that humans had found little use for humanity until they turned Undead.


Any Undead can manipulate bonfires, that's why you see the Firekeeper Scar on the Hollows' chest and on your character as well. You see the unlit bonfires because either there are a bunch of Hollows around it that don't mind lighting it, it is unlit in your world or they simply don't want to waste their humanity trying to kindling it. You can see this because almost all NPCs return to Firelink Shrine when there's already a lit and strong bonfire. I don't think the player character is unique in either way, even if Kathee says that he's special in a certain way, in my opinion is just an ordinary Undead in an awesone adventure. If you follow the probability principle, even if it's a small probability, given enough time it will sure to happen. After a 1000 years passed, a "special" Undead escape the Asylum and did the amazing things.

Undead haven't been around 1000 years. Intro says "Now there are undead" or something.

The Undead Curse could have started as soon as Gwyn went to link the fire or at a later time. We don't really know, but the Undead could have existed before the character's time (Undead corpses?).

WyrmHero wrote:The Undead Curse could have started as soon as Gwyn went to link the fire or at a later time. We don't really know, but the Undead could have existed before the character's time (Undead corpses?).

"But soon, the flames will fade, and only Dark will remain.Even now, there are only embers, and man sees not light, but only endless nights.
And amongst the living are seen, carriers of the accursed Darksign."

The wording implies that It is a recent thing.

I just noticed the Darkmoon Knightess says " This woman cannot be trusted...." as you kill her if you're playing as a female character....

Does anyone else know of any NPC dialogue changes when you play a female toon?

Patches and the female merchant, though I don't remember what they say.

WyrmHero wrote:Patches and the female merchant, though I don't remember what they say.

I think they just call you a lass instead of a lad.

Before the game was released,it has been revealed in an art book that Andre was supposed to be the Firstborn and would have helped the player by pushing a wall like a baws.
Of course,we all know NOTHING in the actual game says that Andre is the Firstborn so he's not.

Plus they said in an interview that the story should follow the game,adapt to the game and not vice-versa.

So I believe by rush and lack of time,the Firstborn is simply NOT in the actual game and he is yet unknown even to the devs(well maybe they planned a Firstborn DLC)

I usually don't care about other people's theories, but since you didn't say Solaire is the Firstborn, I'm here to clarify a few things.

xMalevolence wrote:"1. The player is unique; can light bonfires, can restore humanity, can loop time (Groundhog Day style, you warp back to the start of the game), and learns the sunbro miracles when nobody is around to teach him.

Actually, the player isn't unique... There are many many worlds (or if you prefer, dimensions). The only badass thing about the player is that they made it all the way to the Kiln of the First Flame. But even this awesome feat isn't unique, any player that you find in the Kiln is another Chosen Undead, but in their very own world. Solaire included.

And about the Miracle thing; Miracles are just stories; the piece of papers you buy to learn the Miracles are just the story about the gods written in a paper. Anyone with enough Faith in the gods and able to read can learn the Miracles.

2. The God of War is always referred to as "he", yet male is the default gender people use when they don't care about political correctness.

FROM really put some effort in that point this time. They were aiming for a global public.

3. Kaathe says Gwyn has "blurred your past." Who ELSE do we know who has had their past erased?"Now these theories made me 60-40 on the idea.

The gods aren't really gods. If you pay attention to the whole conversation with Kaathe; he'll tell you about how the First Flame faded once in the past; and with that the Dark Race (humans) got stronger, probably creating Undeads in the past too.
The Witch proceeded to create a new Flame, and failed miserably. Gwyn, afraid of the Dark, decided to simply sacrifice himself (and by doing so, he kindled the First Flame; getting rid of the Undead; for now...). He gave power to his children and instructed them to shepherd the humans, to prevent their rise to power again.
Gwyn's children shepherded the humans in a way to make them believe the giants are gods, and fear them. (as your own character prove in game, Humans are way stronger than the gods; since when the Dark approaches they acquire the power of TRUE immortality - Undeath).
THAT is what Gwyn tried to blur about "your" past. The fact that Humans have more power than they think.

This next part is my speculation, and it really only applies to the 2nd part brought up by Shkar, but I've never seen this brought up before, someone correct me if it has.

The description to the Undead Asylum F2 West Key says in the last part of it "But even if a hero found a key in Lordran to liberate this prison, would he have the means, or the heart, to ever come back?"

The description says the hero is a male, which not only supports the idea that the default gender is male ( kinda obvious though in my opinion ) , but also links the gender to the firstborn. Another idea is that, even if you choose your character to be a female, no dialouge changes ( from what I know of ), people can still percieve you as a male. Gwyn raised Gwyndolin as a female, with that said I think it's easily possible for him to raise a female as a male. It also supports the idea that, if people throughout history can't even remember the Firstborns name, then it's easy for them to not only forget the gender, but to of misconceived it in the first place.

If you think this is just over speculation of a key, I don't blame you, but this was made to appeal more to the lore nuts out there. Also if this has already been explained/dismissed/discussed, I apoligize for the repost or w.e.

The key refers to Oscar; he went as far into the Crystal Caverns, but somehow he failed and simply decided to go back to the Asylum to rescue another Undead to win, where he failed.

: D

Orango19 wrote:I usually don't care about other people's theories, but since you didn't say Solaire is the Firstborn, I'm here to clarify a few things.

xMalevolence wrote:"1. The player is unique; can light bonfires, can restore humanity, can loop time (Groundhog Day style, you warp back to the start of the game), and learns the sunbro miracles when nobody is around to teach him.

Actually, the player isn't unique... There are many many worlds (or if you prefer, dimensions). The only badass thing about the player is that they made it all the way to the Kiln of the First Flame. But even this awesome feat isn't unique, any player that you find in the Kiln is another Chosen Undead, but in their very own world. Solaire included.

And about the Miracle thing; Miracles are just stories; the piece of papers you buy to learn the Miracles are just the story about the gods written in a paper. Anyone with enough Faith in the gods and able to read can learn the Miracles.

2. The God of War is always referred to as "he", yet male is the default gender people use when they don't care about political correctness.

FROM really put some effort in that point this time. They were aiming for a global public.

3. Kaathe says Gwyn has "blurred your past." Who ELSE do we know who has had their past erased?"Now these theories made me 60-40 on the idea.

The gods aren't really gods. If you pay attention to the whole conversation with Kaathe; he'll tell you about how the First Flame faded once in the past; and with that the Dark Race (humans) got stronger, probably creating Undeads in the past too.
The Witch proceeded to create a new Flame, and failed miserably. Gwyn, afraid of the Dark, decided to simply sacrifice himself (and by doing so, he kindled the First Flame; getting rid of the Undead; for now...). He gave power to his children and instructed them to shepherd the humans, to prevent their rise to power again.
Gwyn's children shepherded the humans in a way to make them believe the giants are gods, and fear them. (as your own character prove in game, Humans are way stronger than the gods; since when the Dark approaches they acquire the power of TRUE immortality - Undeath).
THAT is what Gwyn tried to blur about "your" past. The fact that Humans have more power than they think.

This next part is my speculation, and it really only applies to the 2nd part brought up by Shkar, but I've never seen this brought up before, someone correct me if it has.

The description to the Undead Asylum F2 West Key says in the last part of it "But even if a hero found a key in Lordran to liberate this prison, would he have the means, or the heart, to ever come back?"

The description says the hero is a male, which not only supports the idea that the default gender is male ( kinda obvious though in my opinion ) , but also links the gender to the firstborn. Another idea is that, even if you choose your character to be a female, no dialouge changes ( from what I know of ), people can still percieve you as a male. Gwyn raised Gwyndolin as a female, with that said I think it's easily possible for him to raise a female as a male. It also supports the idea that, if people throughout history can't even remember the Firstborns name, then it's easy for them to not only forget the gender, but to of misconceived it in the first place.

If you think this is just over speculation of a key, I don't blame you, but this was made to appeal more to the lore nuts out there. Also if this has already been explained/dismissed/discussed, I apoligize for the repost or w.e.

The key refers to Oscar; he went as far into the Crystal Caverns, but somehow he failed and simply decided to go back to the Asylum to rescue another Undead to win, where he failed.

: D

A good post. I hope I can remember to post an actual response when I am NOT on a dosage of vicodin.

Orango19 wrote:
The key refers to Oscar; he went as far into the Crystal Caverns, but somehow he failed and simply decided to go back to the Asylum to rescue another Undead to win, where he failed.

: D

What evidence is there that says Oscar made it all the way there? I'm not debasing that idea, I just would rather see evidence of it than just read it and say it's fact as I've never heard of him making it that far.

Also, more about the rest of your post, it is most likely that FROM simply didn't put the firstborn in the game after taking out Andre, however there are multiple theories to everything and I was simply providing other possible evidence to a different one. I do agree that Solaire isn't the firstborn (I think that's what you were trying to say), I believe him to be some random lunatic undead who just happens to be really strong, after all "He's an idiot, although a really strong idiot."

xMalevolence wrote:
What evidence is there that says Oscar made it all the way there? I'm not debasing that idea, I just would rather see evidence of it than just read it and say it's fact as I've never heard of him making it that far.

The Orange Soapstone messages in the Crystal Caverns.

xMalevolence wrote:
Also, more about the rest of your post, it is most likely that FROM simply didn't put the firstborn in the game after taking out Andre, however there are multiple theories to everything and I was simply providing other possible evidence to a different one. I do agree that Solaire isn't the firstborn (I think that's what you were trying to say), I believe him to be some random lunatic undead who just happens to be really strong, after all "He's an idiot, although a really strong idiot."

I'm pretty sure he isn't there, just like Flann isn't.
The Firstborn is probably in Astora, my best guess. Since Andre lies he is from Astora (IF FROM kept him as the firstborn) and that Solaire, an adherent of the Firstborn, comes from Astora. And possibly all the warriors of sunlight. (Solaire being the one to start expanding the WoS covenant around Lordran).

This would make sense on how Oscar's family (an Astora family) knows about the Ancient Legends.