Undead being considered outcasts in the outside world

I think the distortion of time can be made to fit anything but that has nothing to do with the name of this thread. fact remains what do you all think of my theory (my first post on this thread) and what theorys do the rest of y'all have?

samster628 wrote:I think the distortion of time can be made to fit anything but that has nothing to do with the name of this thread. fact remains what do you all think of my theory (my first post on this thread) and what theorys do the rest of y'all have?

I think the full on madness is a point of no return. In fact, it may even have something to do with age. After too much time, too many memories, the mind just can't bear the strain and snaps. Or, the body starts to rot, and the brain is the first to go.

On the topic of hollowing, I noticed something odd about the darksign. Despite being called that, the darksign actually looks like a circle of flame, and I feel that that has some meaning beyond aesthetic value. I think that since everyone is warmed and lives well due to fire, that with the darksign, they're allowed to "burn" their souls, humanity, and physical body in return for life, which would explain the term "hollow" and why hollows also look like they've been rotting alive, even when they're only recently dead. However, this means that they quickly deteriorate after death and assuming that upon hollowing are successful in killing others, will continue living painfully near indefinitely. I also think that the corpses you see are also other undead,(Considering a lot of the corpses are undead NPCs) but have nothing left to "burn" anymore.

Sorry for all the text, but it's my first post and this theory has been with me for a while .

Yes, I think it is symbolic, but I always saw it as too reminiscent of a total eclipse of the Sun...

In time, Fire will fade, and only Dark will remain

Oh wow, I never even thought of it as a total eclipse! In that case, as an eclipse, what would that mean for the darksign? And if it's an eclipse, why does it still look like a burning dot in the eyes of hollows?

I just remembered a few things in the game that support the darksign burns you to keep you alive theory. Notice that for a lot of the enemies in the game (including you) whenever they die, they quickly deteriorate into what looks like ashes. While this is obviously partially so that the game doesn't have to render large physics objects,I think there is a reason they turn into ashes instead of other things; Because the darksign, in a sort of panic, burns anything available in order to preserve the bearer's life, even if that results in the death of the bearer. This also made me ask a few other things; since multiple things, even things that might not be undead at all,deteriorate like this, does that mean that if something has a soul, they are then in potential to be branded with the darksign? Can gods be undead? Is everyone born with an inactive darksign that springs up either when the flame is withering or when the host would die without it's power? There are so many more questions to answer!

Sergeant Soy wrote:I just remembered a few things in the game that support the darksign burns you to keep you alive theory. Notice that for a lot of the enemies in the game (including you) whenever they die, they quickly deteriorate into what looks like ashes. While this is obviously partially so that the game doesn't have to render large physics objects,I think there is a reason they turn into ashes instead of other things; Because the darksign, in a sort of panic, burns anything available in order to preserve the bearer's life, even if that results in the death of the bearer. This also made me ask a few other things; since multiple things, even things that might not be undead at all,deteriorate like this, does that mean that if something has a soul, they are then in potential to be branded with the darksign? Can gods be undead? Is everyone born with an inactive darksign that springs up either when the flame is withering or when the host would die without it's power? There are so many more questions to answer!

The answer is no to your last question. The wording of the intro implies that the Undead are relatively new to the world. There's no way the undead were the ones who built Anor Londo and the like, and it's still in a decent state, so they can't have been there that long. Ergo, if the undead are new and its been a thousand years since the flame has been linked, then the odds of danger being able to awaken the dark sign are slim.

Hmm... then how is the darksign started, and why? Or more to the point, who started it?

Sergeant Soy wrote:Hmm... then how is the darksign started, and why? Or more to the point, who started it?

It seems most likely to me that its simply a side effect of the flame dying. We are talking about the "life source" of the entire world. The single thing that allowed life to begin, even in a world of magic. Trying to say that such a thing dying wouldn't have an effect is insane.

In that case, if its a side effect of the flames dying, then what is the point of the darksign for the withering flames? Is it a mechanic for the flames to have souls returned to them by taking the souls of the branded person? Or is it also a way for the flames to get people in action, as a sort of "Oh, if we're gone, you'll go hollow!" threat? Are the flames sentient? Is my signature that good at representing my nonsense? Oh, and BTW, Its an honor to have someone so prominent on the forums talking seriously to some noob who joined only yesterday. Thank you!

Sergeant Soy wrote:In that case, if its a side effect of the flames dying, then what is the point of the darksign for the withering flames? Is it a mechanic for the flames to have souls returned to them by taking the souls of the branded person? Or is it also a way for the flames to get people in action, as a sort of "Oh, if we're gone, you'll go hollow!" threat? Are the flames sentient? Is my signature that good at representing my nonsense? Oh, and BTW, Its an honor to have someone so prominent on the forums talking seriously to some noob who joined only yesterday. Thank you!

Well, there IS this one theory I've been kicking around for a little bit now. The entire game is about souls, but not the kind of souls everyone thinks of. The "currency" of the game isn't an actual count of the number of actual souls you have, it's actually a unit, like liters, feet, or Joules. That last one is the closest, since souls are basically an energy form. A stronger soul leads to more power and higher capabilities, and it is the source of life. Evidence that it is actually a unit is easily visible in the fact that, say, Gwyn's Soul is worth 20K souls.

Now, lets look at another fact. Take a look at the Lord Souls. As in, their actual images. They don't look like the normal soul items. They are yellow and red, and seem to be flaring, as if they are an actual flame. Makes sense, they DID come from the flame after all. Gwyn's Soul does the same thing, although it seems possible that it is actually his Lord Soul that you obtain.

In fact, all the special boss souls Have the same characteristics, although admittedly it looks much lesser than those examples. But lets go for broke. Even the simple Soul of a Lost Undead has the flaring effect, and it continues all the way up to the highest souls, increasing every time. But, they lack that coloring of the lord souls. That is, they lack it right up until you get to the Soul of the Great Hero, at which point it starts to turn a bit yellow.

So, it seems like the color is simply an effect of the strength, and the flaring is something every soul does, even the humanity. Well, lets take a look at the intro. Everything seems normal and...wait, why is Nito holding a small flame in his hand? Oh, it's probably just his lord soul; after all, it looks orangish-yellow and flares.

But it really did look like fire, to the extent that one could easily mistake the two. And we know that a stronger, larger soul looks even more like a fire. Say, didn't we almost mistake Nito's soul for a fire? If it was stronger or larger, we might have mistaken it for an ACTUAL fire. But that's crazy. After all, what could possibly be that large and still possess the qualities of a soul. I mean, it's not like we know of some giant "flame" that brings life and energy to anything?

What's that? We learn of such a thing that brings life, light, and heat to the entire world in the very intro of the story? Huh, imagine that. It's almost as if they are implying that the world itself has a soul. But that would be ridiculous!

"World itself has a soul" HOLY CRAP! You are absolutely rocking my very thoughts of the game! Its amazing that even now, we're all understanding entirely new things just by bringing together what each of us thinks! So, if the world itself were to have a soul, the first flame, and everyone's soul was taken from that flame, and then the flame started dying, so the darksign shows up, then does that mean the darksign is the soul starting to burn itself to make up for that? Or is it the soul beginning to fade as well, since it is a divided power of something that is dying. That'd explain why hollows (even normal undead) are so focused on getting more souls; theirs is disappearing or too weak to maintain sanity anymore.

The game is very much about opposites. The entire intro is talking about how a "flame" came and turned a world neutral in every way into a world of life and death, and hot and cold, and of light and dark. The only two ways to end the game are polar opposites, and are a "Light" and "Dark" (I won't even bother with good and evil or right and wrong for that argument this time). NPCs are either for or against you (unless you go to extremes to change that), and every living thing is either alive or dead. The entire plot of the game is your journey to end the the one thing that is actually neutral: the undead.

So you have the Flame (Light) and the Abyss (Dark). Before we move on to the dark sign, lets talk about the symbology to those. Now, humanity, despite common belief, seems very much like a race of beings of LIGHT, not darkness. Most of the human settlements we find in game are above ground in the light, and the few that aren't have explanations. The depths was an area that was used as a sort of "city of exiles" amongst the undead. Blighttown is a "city" of crazed cannibalistic mutants. Izalith is at least LIT by the intense glow of an ocean of lava.

And then there's New Londo. A city built underground, its rulers seduced by the dark serpent of the Abyss, and its citizens turned into soldiers for the same. Look at what happened to it: It was flooded in order to stop the dark from spreading. The Way of White uses the phrase "Vereor Nox," meaning "Frightfully Fear the Dark" (or something similar). The Tomb of Giants is completely dark, yet Nito's lair is partially illuminated and orbs of hidden light lead the way there. Yes indeed, it seems as though the only thing linking humans to the dark is their humanity, the "dark sprites."

Yet the intro says, "From the darkness they came." Wait, WHO came? It doesn't actually SAY it was humans, just that they "found the souls of lords." And wait, the lords AREN'T Human. How does that imply that humans came from the dark. The solution? They didn't. The intro wasn't talking about them. It was talking about the Serpents of the Abyss.

It makes perfect sense if you think about it. Frampt claims to have been friends with Gwyn, but why on earth would such a friendship exist? Frampt is a giant snake stuck in a hole. And wait, if the serpents found the flame, how did the lords get their souls from it? It's almost as if one of the serpents "earned" their trust by leading them to the flame under the noses of his brethren and was outcasted for his trouble.

So we have the flame of life, light, and heat and the abyss of death, dark, and cold. The flame seems to grant souls, and the abyss seems to grant humanity. It's always about opposites, and opposites often cancel each other out. When the light is bright and strong, the shadows are dim and weak. Yet when the light fades, the shadows grow. So too might the case be for souls and humanity.

The "flame" starts to fade, and with it, the light. So the dark grows stronger in power. As the beings of light weaken with the flame, the dark servants grow. That explains the attitudes of the serpents. They are beings of darkness; it makes sense for them to want to extinguish the thing holding them back. Now, the only question left to answer is how humanity and the flame go together, which means that we get to get into magical and scientific theory!

Even in magical lore, there is always something lost. A "sacrifice", just like in science. Nothing is ever obtained for free. But, symbolism holds power in the "magic" of most cultures. There is a reason that witchcraft is identified with things such as a hangman's noose, and it was nothing to do with science. By offering up humanity to the flame, it creates a symbolic gesture. An almost magical offering, of rejecting the darkness for the light. By "sacrificing" some of the darkness, it weakens it, empowering the light to fill the void.

It still leaves some questions unanswered, but I will get to those in time.