New to PvP; what is the etiquette on "fair" fights?

Hi all. I just got internet installed in my apartment this weekend, so I'm a n00b to PvP and these boards. (I've beaten Dark Souls on offline play, however, so I'm not new to the game.) In any event, I've tried dabbling a few times in PvP and I wanted to get a sense of proper PvP etiquette. Looking over these boards, as well as several others, there seems to be little consensus about what constitutes fair play and what is just a cheap exploit -- and it's hard to get a sense of whether someone calling a particular object or technique "unfair" reflects any consensus in the community, or just someone complaining because he or she got pwned. For example, I've seen each of the following things identified as "unfair":

-Dark Grain Wood Ring is unfair
-Full Havel's/Stone/Golem armor sets are unfair
-Full Havel's/Stone/Golem armor sets are unfair, if used with DGWR
-Shotel is unfair
-Bandit Knife is unfair
-Backstabbing is unfair
-Backstabbing is unfair, if done with Hornet's Ring
-Backstabbing is unfair, unless it's down to "the other person's mistake"
-Combustion/Grand Combustion is unfair
-Tranquil Walk of Peace is unfair
-Wrath of God is unfair
-Wrath of God is unfair, if it's spammed
-All sorcery/pyromancy/miracles are unfair (I guess Faith, Int builds are out?!?)
-Lightning-ascended weapons are unfair
-Healing is unfair
-Running is unfair
-Dead angles are unfair (I don't even know what this means)
-2v1 or 3v1 fights are unfair
-2v1 or 3v1 fights are unfair, but only if the 2 or 3 are there specifically to farm invaders

What I'm wondering is, is there any consensus about these? I don't think any of the above are necessarily cheap, as long as people are fighting at more or less the same soul level. (I was a level 9 the other day invaded by a Blue Phantom who was clearly around level 100, and that struck me as pretty cheap -- though it's possible the invader didn't realize how low level I was until after I was incinerated in approximately .01 seconds.) I would assume it comes down more to what people's reasonable expectations are. For example, I can see having a fight club that prohibits magic -- or alternatively, where people can ONLY use magic, etc. Obviously, there is some clear-cut douchebag behavior (backstabbing someone while they're bowing, for example, which I saw someone mention), and it's hard to see the fun in bullying brand-new, low-level players in Undead Burg, for example, with your Havel's armor and ascended Pyromancy Flame. But aside from the obvious, are there any rules I should know about being a good DS PvP citizen? Is there a FAQ or stickied thread someone can link me to?

Finally, as someone brand-new to this PvP thing, if anyone would like to get together for some practice, I'd be appreciative. I can't promise I'll be any good, but I can promise to play fair -- once we've decided what that means. Anywho, please feel free to PM me if you're on XBox and want to duel. I'm shooting for a 50 sl character at present. (Don't want to spend the time building a 120 sl until I get some sense of what styles/techniques work for me.) Thanks!

Well, as far as I am concerned you can use any tactics you want. For organized PVP there is some etiquette that is normally followed.

Usually:
No Healing
Limit Backstabs
No TWoP and then WoG/Fireballs/etc. Combo

During organized pvp, I would consider it cheap to (1) farm invaders 2v1 or 3v1, (2) attack people the instant after spawning, (3) attack people as they're bowing, (4) use TWoP as people are spawning, and (5) heal with estus or humanity (I'm ok with people using miracles to heal, although others disagree). Other than that, I think it's all fair game. However, I do think that clones wearing family masks and either giant's armor or havel's armor look incredibly stupid (not cheap, but it's hard to respect people who copy a cookie cutter build).

Outside of organized pvp, there are no rules.

Baal-Avatar wrote:Well, as far as I am concerned you can use any tactics you want. For organized PVP there is some etiquette that is normally followed.

Usually:
No Healing
Limit Backstabs
No TWoP and then WoG/Fireballs/etc. Combo

This^

But at sl 50 you wont get many ppl looking for duels(organised pvp) so most of your pvp will be invading ppl trying to play the game, or being invaded by griefers. At lvl 50 chuck all the rules out as most ppl you fight wont have any rules themselves.

Edit. Ninja post from strangejoy... What he said is bang on also.

any spell spamming is frowned upon, healing if its 1v1 wrath of gods is generally unfair if 1v1 in my opinion. the dark wood grain ring is just annoying to me, its easy to kill them. dead angles arent unfair, they are like with the scythe how it can avoid a shield and hit them. a lot of people think that using heavy armor, a crest grass shield and the mask of the child is unfair because of the stamina regeneration but i disagree. black knight greataxe is looked down on. running is stupid, especially if your the invader. using force or emit force or wrath of gods to knock people off edges is cheap.chain backstabbing (backstab as they get up repeatedly till death) is unfair.i think lightning weapons are underpowered after sl 90 personally because the damage is split. people say that the zweilhander is unfair but i have no trouble fighting them.moonlight butterfly special and the dragon king greataxe is kinda cheap but its no big deal. all the other stuff you listed is fine.

tranquil walk of peace is stupid too

OmarTheFuzzy wrote:Hi all. I just got internet installed in my apartment this weekend, so I'm a n00b to PvP and these boards. (I've beaten Dark Souls on offline play, however, so I'm not new to the game.) In any event, I've tried dabbling a few times in PvP and I wanted to get a sense of proper PvP etiquette. Looking over these boards, as well as several others, there seems to be little consensus about what constitutes fair play and what is just a cheap exploit -- and it's hard to get a sense of whether someone calling a particular object or technique "unfair" reflects any consensus in the community, or just someone complaining because he or she got pwned. For example, I've seen each of the following things identified as "unfair":

-Dark Grain Wood Ring is unfair
-Full Havel's/Stone/Golem armor sets are unfair
-Full Havel's/Stone/Golem armor sets are unfair, if used with DGWR
-Shotel is unfair
-Bandit Knife is unfair
-Backstabbing is unfair
-Backstabbing is unfair, if done with Hornet's Ring
-Backstabbing is unfair, unless it's down to "the other person's mistake"
-Combustion/Grand Combustion is unfair
-Tranquil Walk of Peace is unfair
-Wrath of God is unfair
-Wrath of God is unfair, if it's spammed
-All sorcery/pyromancy/miracles are unfair (I guess Faith, Int builds are out?!?)
-Lightning-ascended weapons are unfair
-Healing is unfair
-Running is unfair
-Dead angles are unfair (I don't even know what this means)
-2v1 or 3v1 fights are unfair
-2v1 or 3v1 fights are unfair, but only if the 2 or 3 are there specifically to farm invaders

What I'm wondering is, is there any consensus about these? I don't think any of the above are necessarily cheap, as long as people are fighting at more or less the same soul level. (I was a level 9 the other day invaded by a Blue Phantom who was clearly around level 100, and that struck me as pretty cheap -- though it's possible the invader didn't realize how low level I was until after I was incinerated in approximately .01 seconds.) I would assume it comes down more to what people's reasonable expectations are. For example, I can see having a fight club that prohibits magic -- or alternatively, where people can ONLY use magic, etc. Obviously, there is some clear-cut douchebag behavior (backstabbing someone while they're bowing, for example, which I saw someone mention), and it's hard to see the fun in bullying brand-new, low-level players in Undead Burg, for example, with your Havel's armor and ascended Pyromancy Flame. But aside from the obvious, are there any rules I should know about being a good DS PvP citizen? Is there a FAQ or stickied thread someone can link me to?

Finally, as someone brand-new to this PvP thing, if anyone would like to get together for some practice, I'd be appreciative. I can't promise I'll be any good, but I can promise to play fair -- once we've decided what that means. Anywho, please feel free to PM me if you're on XBox and want to duel. I'm shooting for a 50 sl character at present. (Don't want to spend the time building a 120 sl until I get some sense of what styles/techniques work for me.) Thanks!

I've no opinion on everything else, but full havels/giants/smough's etc arent unfair. I use them, but in turn sacrifice any sort of mobility. However, flpping around in full havels blah blah with the DWGR is quite unfair. Defence, mobility - choose one or the other, buddy. Dont expect me to stick around for the fight if you're deciding that its fair to have both.

BB glitchers griefing low level noobs is unfair.

Everything else is supposed to be in the game and is fair game IMO. Learn to deal w/ it or get slaughtered and ***** about things you can't deal with needing a 'nerf'.

A good rule of thumb is to just follow the golden rule.

Although a lot of people are against flipping tanks with any family masks and Grass Crest Shield, it is still a valid build. I use a great club for PVP and without the stamina boost I would only have about 1 swing before I would be back-stabbed. lol.

Also, organized PVP is a much different game than just invading in general. If you do the organized PVP you will pick-up of the rules quickly.

What most people mentioned above are good rules to follow especially jumping players as they spawn or camping for invaders with multiple players. Everyone has to really make their own rules for themselves as everyone plays the game in their own way.

My advice would be just to have fun and don't grief.

Yes lots of good comments.

Live by your own code of honor is best, just dont expect others to do the same. Ie. I will never use twop but have no problems with others using it, even in duels.

War is war and a duel is a duel. If you join a club or agree to duel with people whatever the etiquette is is fair. When just playing there is no such things as unfair or cheap. There's a lot of griping about flipping in heavy armor with physics being the main argument. How can Havel flip? Well.....it's magic (rings). Which is part of the game. The gripers forget that using the Havel's ring/DWGR combo does make for nice physics defying tanks but it's at the sacrifice of other rings and their benefits. Those two are just obvious because they occurred to everyone. If that's cheap then I'm cheap too for choosing to wear the bloodbite ring and blood shield so I never have to worry about how many times I've swung my Lifehunt Scythe.

Bow before and after the fight.

I don't care what else you do.

On the organized PvP rules are set up and if you are goign to take part you should obide by them other than that, and this is going to sound rude but it is not meant that way.....This is pretty irrelevant, there are countless threads on ediquette and what is fair, no matter what we say people are going to do what they are going to do and outside of organized tournemants i would advise you to do the same.

people will use the equipment to play to their toons strengths, if you are based on mele then yes, you might want to tank up with harvels and equip a flip ring, people that have not learned how to fight against it will call it unfair, for all of the griping the only thing i find unfair is to BB glitch and hang out at lv 4 invading people that just started the game, that is gutless and cheap but it happens.

use any equipment you gather on your journey as you see fit, cause no matter what most will do the same.

almost forgot there is one more thing, 2 or 3 on 1 is only unfair if you are calling someone that has put down their red sign into an ambush that is cheap, but if you are just helping someone thru a level and you get invaded....to hell with them, as far as i am concerned that is the risk you take when you invade, but summoning a red phantom to get deliberatley ambushed is cheap

My take is this.
1. optimize your build. Doesn't matter what it looks like, only matters how it performs. Your opponents should be able to look at your armor, and figure out a rough poise guess and your defense weaknesses.

2. Let your opponent get ready. Bow, buff, spice, then attack.

3. No spell spamming

4. BS is a heated topic. BS are OK, IMO. The occasional pivot BS is fine (it is very obvious when you are going for a pivot BS, so they can not only be avoided, but also countered with a BS before they can BS you). Punish their mistakes. Heavy weapons really hit hard, but their weakness is recovery frames. If you get close enough to roll BS them, then that is their fault for not controlling distance, IMO. But, they are overpowered, so don't spam them. Vary your attacks.

5. No healing. Moss is OK.

6. Don't b**ch about lag. It happens, deal with it. If it is bad, mention it so we can adjust things (resetting connections, resetting fights if lag is bad, don't attack during obvious lag, etc).

7. No TWOP. All other spells are fine.

8. No Fog ring or Hornet Ring (this one is debatable). IMO, Havel's ring is fine. If you are using it, then it should be obvious that you are stacking poise, and your strategy is much more obvious.

reim0027 wrote:
7. No TWOP. All other spells are fine.

Why? I honestly don't even think its worth an attunment slot anymore. Lasts like 10 seconds, still allows you to roll full speed.

If your opponent casts it, the cast is long enough for you to run for 10 seconds. Or just backstab him. I can't think of many situations where you would gain any advantage casting it. :/

for organized pvp the rules are pretty much no healing, dont spam or fish for backstabs, everything else is good even twop, most people that use that spell will go to you and either spam wog or r1 which can be countered with a crest shield and parrying. outside of organized pvp everything goes, youre allowed to use the cheapest trick in the game.

Just to be clear, what do you mean by "fish for backstabs"?

And, yeah, that's why I don't like TWoP.

that all you do is wait for an openning to go for a bs and not do much of anything.

OK, that makes sense. I do occasionally "fish" for them by purposely missing an attack or doing a parry animation (both of which sometimes get me into trouble). But, I don't fish for them by doing nothing.