"There is no Tier Two"

I am not putting “in my opinion” after 27 sentences, so please understand its implied.
There is absolutely zero insults in this original post.

“There is no Tier Two”

A second tier? Naysay say I.

Spears stand alone and are not followed in succession by another complete tier. Tier 2 has never been established. As a matter of fact, spears stand alone so effectively they have corrupted the conversation. No one has defined an agreed upon tier 2. I’m going to make that attempt. I say now tier 2 is a hybrid, and then t3 could clearly be defined as katanas or whatever you want.

In order to accomplish that, I believe I’d have to clearly define spears as t1.

What 3 things do you have to do to win dark souls pvp?
1-Deal damage.
2-Avoid damage.
3-Learn to play with lag.

One is obvious, two is dodging, and three should not have to be elaborated on .

What weapon helps you do those three things the best? Spears. The tier after spears is a hybrid because those weapons would be similar to spears. This is compounded by the combination of experience and the Leo Ring. This combination cannot be compensated for by most other weapon classes, as you have to play offensively for them to work. Spears allow for expertise regarding rules two and three, with rule one almost becoming a side-effect. No other weapons do this. People tend to forget, properly kiting and having seen and recognized every weapon in the game (experience), you are more likely to hit with crits. Yes that happens with every weapon, but not at that range.

Ask any question you want to about a spear, it even has a dead angle.

Stamina consumption? Not a problem. Quick attack? Not a problem, nor is big damage. As a matter of fact, they can block and attack at the same time. Its recovery time is even on par. There is almost nothing bad you can say about a spear, except they’re boring.<---not passing judgement. You can go on and on.

But what’s tier 2 then? I say:
-Lucerne
-Washing Pole
-???
-???

See my point?

I am sad this is so disagreed upon. I think fight club rules on forums could have been more efficiently scrutinized developing a “true” agreed upon balance. By constantly informing the masses of how to counter spears, we seemed to have missed our opportunity to have truly explored the competitive Dark Souls pvp experience. We are the QC for perfection.<---I could elaborate on this for hours.

Someone inevitably says aloud, “Spears have counters” “I haven’t lost to one in forever” or “anything can be mastered” and it’s considered an accurate argument. It completely sidesteps the realization that hitting and evading are a fundamental principle in Dark Souls because the combat is so slow and unique. Its brings together aggression and caution in a completely new and original way. It didn’t feel like mortal kombat for me…or any of you. We got good, and got sidetracked from the facts.

I’ve heard just about every pro say well if you don’t get hit your opponent’s damage doesn’t matter. I say ya that’s right, imagine doing it while dealing damage. That’s what Johnny 5 would’ve done if it played.

Again, please imagine every sentence ending with imo, or something to that effect. Problem is, imo, this is fact. I’m tempted not to post It because of a likely “stopping before flame war lock”, but I am curious as heck to see a REAL tier 2 developed and posted, and there is no mention of a hybrid tier in search.

I can't accurately explain what I think tier 2 would be because I do not consider spears to be the only tier 1. And for that matter I don't think all spears are in the same tier, some are better than others.

Jansports wrote: And for that matter I don't think all spears are in the same tier

Definitely that.

I think I can expand on what I think makes a tier 1 weapon. As various users present varying levels of success with a wide variety of weapons, I think those weapons that really "stand on their own" would be tier 1. Weapons like the MLGS or Murakumo, where you can make a build literally just to use that weapon and that weapon alone and be as successful as builds with multiple tools (say CMW+Uchi)

I personally think Tier 1 weapons are weapons that force the user to have multiple tools, without weakening their impact. Such as the Moonlight Butterfly Horn, Velka's Rapier, and Moonlight greatsword: which all require virtually no strength or dex, and so are just free weapons for a int build.

What then makes Moonlight Butterfly Horn is Tier 1 weapon is that it's a long spear, which places it up there in the same ranks as the other long spears: which all require high strength, dex, or both. This makes Moonlight Butterfly horn, IMHO, a Tier 1 weapon because It shares all the strengths of other spears, while not sharing their weakness's (stat requirements, low damage, and weight.)

I think weapons need to be rated overall based on 6 Criteria.
In no particular order of importance.

Damage Potential Per Hit
Range
Swing and Recover Speed
Stamina usage.
Stamina drain (amount of stamina opponent loses for blocking)
Moveset.

With the exception of move set, all these criteria can be very objectively looked at in order to reach conclusions. But the moveset is important. Let's not forget Epic Name Bro, by ignoring the moveset criteria, declared the Great Scythe the best dex weapon in the game (Which against immobile targets, he'd be right.), and how easily such a statement could be challenged.

what the hell is this tier 1/2 crap?

Some new meta fashion thats come in? Did ENB coin it?

Tiers are common in fighting games and other competitive balanced gaming communities.

Generally.

However I think you are flat out wrong Animaal.

If there is a Tier 1, and a Tier 3, there must be a Tier in between. While in some buildings there may be an empty 13th floor it is still a part of the building, you just aren't supposed to stop on it.

Tier 2 exists if you believe in the Tier system, and believe in a third Tier.

Numbers exist in a specific way, FACT.

Why are we beating a dead horse with the spear debate? The community loves to run from the fighting game mentality of "play to win" and pushing mechanics to the extreme and yet here we are putting weapons into tiers which is as FG as you can get. Settle this the way they settle FG tiers. Two similarly skilled advanced players square off for 10 rounds and chart which weapon wins out of 10. Do this for every weapon vs every weapon and then organize into an aggregate grid.

Just stop the rhetoric and conjecture already and get out there and prove all of your opinions with some real research.

this again? really? meh.

Emergence wrote:Why are we beating a dead horse with the spear debate? The community loves to run from the fighting game mentality of "play to win" and pushing mechanics to the extreme and yet here we are putting weapons into tiers which is as FG as you can get. Settle this the way they settle FG tiers. Two similarly skilled advanced players square off for 10 rounds and chart which weapon wins out of 10. Do this for every weapon vs every weapon and then organize into an aggregate grid.

Just stop the rhetoric and conjecture already and get out there and prove all of your opinions with some real research.

First, some weapons can be called more efficient or as Rynn stated perfectly, "Advantaged" than others. I'm sure Emergence's idea would be a good start to testing objectively which ones have inherent advantages and there's oodles of anecdotal evidence around to see who thinks what. Jan suggested that the amount of usage in "the wild" is a good indicator as well and I agree to some extent.

For me though, only one tier system matters:

Tier 1- Weapons that I love to use (Great Scythe, Priscilla's Dagger, Gargoyle Tail Ax, Black Bow of Pharis)
Tier 2- Weapons that I like to use (Sanctuary Guardian Tail, Great Bows, Claws, Blacksmith Hammer, Lucerne, Four Pronged Plow)
Tier 3- Weapons I've tried experimenting with because they looked cool or something similar and the relationship just never worked out (GSoA-even tried dual wielding, MLGS, Crystal Ring Shield, BKGS, probably a few more in here)
Tier 4- Weapons that I don't like to use (everything else)

i always assumed that anything that isn't a tier one weapon is a tier two weapon…

Emergence wrote:Why are we beating a dead horse with the spear debate? The community loves to run from the fighting game mentality of "play to win" and pushing mechanics to the extreme and yet here we are putting weapons into tiers which is as FG as you can get. Settle this the way they settle FG tiers. Two similarly skilled advanced players square off for 10 rounds and chart which weapon wins out of 10. Do this for every weapon vs every weapon and then organize into an aggregate grid.

Just stop the rhetoric and conjecture already and get out there and prove all of your opinions with some real research.

1. I'm pretty sure a sample size of 10 per matchup is actually insufficient to draw conclusions, especially because

2. Which "good" players are true weaponmasters who fight equally well with every weapon? If one "pro" wins with a spear vs a great axe 8 times out of 10, but the other "pro" only wins 5-6 times out of 10, how good is the spear?

In fighting games where statistics are regularly tracked you can get a representative sampling from a relatively large population. That would be a difficult undertaking indeed in dark souls due to the nature of the game.

I did not presume to say it would be perfect or even of the same quality of a FG tier ranking but it would certainly be better than wild opinions. And now I'm getting really annoyed.

*Hits rewind button*

Ahhh.....it's good to be back in the fall of 2011.....

Oh cool, Dark Souls was just released. Man I loved Northern Regalia, I wonder what weapon I'll end up having a passionate bromance with this time around?

*with wide eyes, inserts disc*

I'm having so much FUN playing this game. Sweet, a bow. I'm gonna give that a try. Oh cool....a weapon came off this thing's tail. I'm gonna give that a try. Sweet....this guy dropped a really big sword. I'm gonna give that a try. Shoot, I can't use it effectively yet.....


The search continues.

*Present day*

Looks like I really found my niche with this one. I have my love, my one true weapon. Well self, it looks like you lost your wonderment and excitement with new weapons.....you done tried them all. That's right self. But at least I can be content knowing I'm still having fun with this game



♪Insert shameless Towel Day event plug here♪

Yay, the "spears are op" conversation! It seems like opposing views are not the hottest thing when it comes to this spear thing, but here is what i think if anyone cares:

I used to think spears are too good and the best weapon class in this game, but then suddenly i started beating them way more than losing to them. But i'm not a pvp god, so how is that possible? Estoc/Katana/Shield setup almost never fails me against spears. Just last night i fought ninja flipping silver knight spear user four times and i beat him three times. Just a random occurrence that doesn't prove anything, i know i know. But it's just an example.

Everyone knows the pros of spears, reach, speed blah blah. But what about cons? Here are some, in my opinion:

- Bad moveset. Well, it's not like they need more than their regular attack and shield poke. But, at least you don't have to watch out for anything else when fighting a spear. Even if they do something else, 9 times out of 10 it's very easy to poise bs/roll bs or parry. Spears are predictable.

- Low critical damage. Yeah, they deal low backstab/riposte damage.

- (imo) Best ones can't be buffed. Not really that big of a downside, but it's something. I always thought demon's spear, silver knight spear and mlbh are the best.

So, how to use these downsides to your advantage? I like to trade hits with weapons that have a fast, long range running attack. Like katanas or estoc. You will need to predict their attack, but that shouldn't be too difficult. This works best if they're two-handing spear. Also, i like the estoc against spears because i can hit them with the shield poke surprisingly often by running up to their face shield up. Usually it works only 2-3 times in a fight, but it's worth it. Estoc also has good running attack that can catch them at the end of their roll.

Different types of backstab. Roll bs and poise pivot bs have been most successful for me. Also, if they flip all over the place like a clown, sideroll bs. Just don't be too obvious with you backstabs. Meaning, don't fish all the time. Also, it's important to be smart with shield usage and stamina management if you try to get close for a bs or poke. Everyone knows how annoying the phantom range can be. So practice when it is better to block and when it is better to roll. High stability shield has saved me many times against spears. Use green blossom.

Remember, there is no rush. If you run face first to their attacks 8 times in a fight and die, it's your fault. Take your time. Observe your opponent. Does he prefer shield poke over the regular attack? Is he good at spacing? Does he possibly have pyros/magic in addition to spear? How much poise he has?. Don't play their game. Meaning, you don't necessarily have to be the one who engages first. Throw a dung pie, shoot with a bow, cast spells. Do anything that makes him come to you.

Remember, these are only things I have personally found useful. Are spears top tier? Yes. Are spears the best weapon class? No, i don't think so.

FinPeku wrote:Yay, the "spears are op" conversation! It seems like opposing views are not the hottest thing when it comes to this spear thing, but here is what i think if anyone cares:

I used to think spears are too good and the best weapon class in this game, but then suddenly i started beating them way more than losing to them. But i'm not a pvp god, so how is that possible? Estoc/Katana/Shield setup almost never fails me against spears. Just last night i fought ninja flipping silver knight spear user four times and i beat him three times. Just a random occurrence that doesn't prove anything, i know i know. But it's just an example.

Everyone knows the pros of spears, reach, speed blah blah. But what about cons? Here are some, in my opinion:

- Bad moveset. Well, it's not like they need more than their regular attack and shield poke. But, at least you don't have to watch out for anything else when fighting a spear. Even if they do something else, 9 times out of 10 it's very easy to poise bs/roll bs or parry. Spears are predictable.

- Low critical damage. Yeah, they deal low backstab/riposte damage.

- (imo) Best ones can't be buffed. Not really that big of a downside, but it's something. I always thought demon's spear, silver knight spear and mlbh are the best.

So, how to use these downsides to your advantage? I like to trade hits with weapons that have a fast, long range running attack. Like katanas or estoc. You will need to predict their attack, but that shouldn't be too difficult. This works best if they're two-handing spear. Also, i like the estoc against spears because i can hit them with the shield poke surprisingly often by running up to their face shield up. Usually it works only 2-3 times in a fight, but it's worth it. Estoc also has good running attack that can catch them at the end of their roll.

Different types of backstab. Roll bs and poise pivot bs have been most successful for me. Also, if they flip all over the place like a clown, sideroll bs. Just don't be too obvious with you backstabs. Meaning, don't fish all the time. Also, it's important to be smart with shield usage and stamina management if you try to get close for a bs or poke. Everyone knows how annoying the phantom range can be. So practice when it is better to block and when it is better to roll. High stability shield has saved me many times against spears. Use green blossom.

Remember, there is no rush. If you run face first to their attacks 8 times in a fight and die, it's your fault. Take your time. Observe your opponent. Does he prefer shield poke over the regular attack? Is he good at spacing? Does he possibly have pyros/magic in addition to spear? How much poise he has?. Don't play their game. Meaning, you don't necessarily have to be the one who engages first. Throw a dung pie, shoot with a bow, cast spells. Do anything that makes him come to you.

Remember, these are only things I have personally found useful. Are spears top tier? Yes. Are spears the best weapon class? No, i don't think so.

Dont listen to this noob, all he uses are spears and I still beat him every time, I usually parry him ten times too.

Jansports wrote:I can't accurately explain what I think tier 2 would be because I do not consider spears to be the only tier 1. And for that matter I don't think all spears are in the same tier, some are better than others.

At least an honest answer. It is wrong, but at least some thought was put into it.

Jansports wrote:I think I can expand on what I think makes a tier 1 weapon. As various users present varying levels of success with a wide variety of weapons, I think those weapons that really "stand on their own" would be tier 1. Weapons like the MLGS or Murakumo, where you can make a build literally just to use that weapon and that weapon alone and be as successful as builds with multiple tools (say CMW+Uchi)

More thought and decently explained. However a CMW/SLB/DMB whatever spear wins any buff battle trade because of the in game mechanics tested and tried in game already. You receive the thanks for actually reading and possibly giving way to accurate research of developing a tier 2. This thread, imo, will be locked before completion however. Especially after reading the next few comments…shame really.

Serious_Much wrote:what the hell is this tier 1/2 crap?

Some new meta fashion thats come in? Did ENB coin it?

I made a promise so here it goes: But Tolvo said!!!....

Tolvo wrote:Tiers are common in fighting games and other competitive balanced gaming communities.

Generally.

However I think you are flat out wrong Animaal.

If there is a Tier 1, and a Tier 3, there must be a Tier in between. While in some buildings there may be an empty 13th floor it is still a part of the building, you just aren't supposed to stop on it.

Tier 2 exists if you believe in the Tier system, and believe in a third Tier.

Numbers exist in a specific way, FACT.

Thank you. But I am not wrong. There is a tier 2. It is custom made and comprised as a hybrid, just to reiterate. I assume you either didn’t read it all, or just a little. There is a tier in between. It’s a figure of speech. Please do not comment without actually reading, or do so, this conversation invites it like I said.

Completely non-productive to read something like this and say 3 is after 2 and 4 is after 3. Yes I know, thanks for the heads up so to speak, but again, please read.

Emergence wrote:Why are we beating a dead horse with the spear debate? The community loves to run from the fighting game mentality of "play to win" and pushing mechanics to the extreme and yet here we are putting weapons into tiers which is as FG as you can get. Settle this the way they settle FG tiers. Two similarly skilled advanced players square off for 10 rounds and chart which weapon wins out of 10. Do this for every weapon vs every weapon and then organize into an aggregate grid.

Just stop the rhetoric and conjecture already and get out there and prove all of your opinions with some real research.

This is not rhetoric as it has been proven in game already. I do not believe I need to explain why tiers exist in Dark Souls, and how it is unrelated to this particular comment. Most have already agreed there are tiers, but none have agreed what tier 2 is.

And I would say yes, this is a part of the research and development process.

RantFromRant wrote:this again? really? meh.

Comment predicted. But ya, I’ve felt the same way before. It would be nice for this sentiment to be side-stepped for the sake of completion of the topic. I’d like to see tier 2 developed, and am willing to decipher through the "this again" comments for the sake of clearly defining tier 2.

skarekrow13 wrote:First, some weapons can be called more efficient or as Rynn stated perfectly, "Advantaged" than others. I'm sure Emergence's idea would be a good start to testing objectively which ones have inherent advantages and there's oodles of anecdotal evidence around to see who thinks what. Jan suggested that the amount of usage in "the wild" is a good indicator as well and I agree to some extent.

For me though, only one tier system matters:

Tier 1- Weapons that I love to use (Great Scythe, Priscilla's Dagger, Gargoyle Tail Ax, Black Bow of Pharis)
Tier 2- Weapons that I like to use (Sanctuary Guardian Tail, Great Bows, Claws, Blacksmith Hammer, Lucerne, Four Pronged Plow)
Tier 3- Weapons I've tried experimenting with because they looked cool or something similar and the relationship just never worked out (GSoA-even tried dual wielding, MLGS, Crystal Ring Shield, BKGS, probably a few more in here)
Tier 4- Weapons that I don't like to use (everything else)

This is going in the direction of objective observation. I don’t want to say why Pricialla’s Dagger is not a tier 1 weapon. But this sort of objectivity is a good start in the right direction.

Emergence wrote:I did not presume to say it would be perfect or even of the same quality of a FG tier ranking but it would certainly be better than wild opinions. And now I'm getting really annoyed.

Gives way to this:

Animaaal wrote:...Someone inevitably says aloud, “Spears have counters” “I haven’t lost to one in forever” or “anything can be mastered” and it’s considered an accurate argument...

Like I said. This was completely predicted. I’m not surprised anymore at the clouded statements this argument inevitably brings. What is defined in the op is anything but a wild opinion. However, this clearly demonstartes how round and round this conversation has gone. Openinga a can of worms is not my thing so to speak, and if the op is objectviely read, one would arrive at that conclusion.

Just to add my personal opinion, I’d rather beat a dead horse until it is actually dead.

These are the comments and reasons tier 2 has never been developed. There is no need to do any in game research anymore. It has already been done, just not discussed.

FinPeku wrote:...Yay, the "spears are op" conversation!...

Lol. That it is not. But thank you for the light-heartedness.

I would give you thanks for the effort, but it is a one time thing.

I am now going to fully read and try to objectively understand what Finpeku is saying, as I have not yet done for personal reasons, and will either arrive at a rebuttal or, concede to certain points. It looks well written, I look forward to reading the rest.

---

I implore people to put more thought into what they are saying like Finpeku, Jansports,and skare.

If this thread is not locked, I’d like to continue the conversation with an actual conversation.

To anyone not understanding the premise of the op, this is NOT a spears are op thread. It has been requested that those types of threads not be made anymore, and that point has been decided already anyway.

The question is: What are the real t2s?

Again...if 2 robots played Dark Souls.....

Animaaal....I gotta agree with Emergence. I haven't seen any concrete proof that x=tier anything. Now, I understand the point of the thread is to determine a tier 2 but the issue I think you're running into is that there isn't a universal consensus on tier 1. Obviously, you think spears=tier 1. I will absolutely not try to derail this or start a spear argument. It's pointless and these arguments are already souring the forum to some degree for me so I am attempting to help you define this thread's goal better so people will converse with you rather than have a spear argument....here goes:

First off, I reiterate, I have seen zero....and I mean zero.....objective proof of x=best. Now, I do want to say that there's lots of evidence that some things are more advantaged than others. A broken sword hilt is not as good as, well, anything. So I will posit, that it is POSSIBLE to create tiers, and it MIGHT happen that it can be done objectively. I also admit that spears should be placed pretty high. I only bring this up to state where I think you should go (with the thread, not a profane suggestion).


I can't stress this enough: NO ONE and I mean NO ONE should attempt to sway opinions here on what they think is the best. Unless you're willing to provide concrete OBJECTIVE DATA from independent testing with scientific rationale, controls, variables, etc. with a statistically drawn conclusion based on a solid research model don't even bother. Seriously.....just don't even start. If you have that, please show it to everyone, otherwise it very much is conjecture and we've already had these discussions and the shocking result is: there is no forum consensus on the Tier 1 weapon class or classes.

With that being said, for the purposes of Animaaal's thread, I believe he wants help establishing the second tier. Now, anyone who wishes to stay civil and have this conversation and help him NEEDS to work with the assumption that tier 1=spears. Animaaal's request is to help him establish his tier 2. To do that, you can't argue tier 1. If you don't agree (like I don't) this might not be the thread for you (I'm just here for the pancake breakfast).



On a sidenote "Skarekrow Green" is pretty bad***

Animal, i already know what you're going to say and i know it will be well thought and well written... but you're wrong! Why? Because i say so and refuse to change my point of view no matter what others say. Remember, this is not rhetoric as my opinion is a fact and has been proven in game already. Or at least the game has proven it to ME, and everyone else simply has to agree. I know you will inevitably offer proof why I could be wrong, but I will not consider it an accurate argument. Just agree with me already so we can discuss about this thing I feel is very important!

Well, I'm joking obviously and perhaps being a bit rude. But that is how this has been going so far. How can people offer anything to this conversation, when you absolutely cannot change your point of view no matter what people say? You are asking for opinions because you would like to decide something as a community, yet you refuse to listen to the community.

If you say spears are stand alone tier 1, and the majority of people disagree, then this IS a "spears are OP" conversation.

I have to go, I'm sorry. I look forward to the read.

Before I go, people say the HSWC is the best leg piece, the Dingy is the best chest piece, and the CoD is the best head piece.

Of course those comments are situational, but they are relatively true and not interprted with such subjectivity.

Whatever the case may be, I know I'll have something good to read later. Maybe not something to comment on, but at least a good read.

Sorry for the skim, I'll make up for it later.

PS-Also, I have zero personal attachment/hatred towards spears. Clearly outlined in the op.

PSS-I am surprised it "went there" so quick...sorta. :|

FinPeku wrote:Animal, i already know what you're going to say and i know it will be well thought and well written... but you're wrong! Why? Because i say so and refuse to change my point of view no matter what others say. Remember, this is not rhetoric as my opinion is a fact and has been proven in game already. Or at least the game has proven it to ME, and everyone else simply has to agree. I know you will inevitably offer proof why I could be wrong, but I will not consider it an accurate argument. Just agree with me already so we can discuss about this thing I feel is very important!

Well, I'm joking obviously and perhaps being a bit rude. But that is how this has been going so far. How can people offer anything to this conversation, when you absolutely cannot change your point of view no matter what people say? You are asking for opinions because you would like to decide something as a community, yet you refuse to listen to the community.

If you say spears are stand alone tier 1, and the majority of people disagree, then this IS a "spears are OP" conversation.

i actually agree with that first paragraph. this game is not balanced and there is no best weapons, you can tank a hit and bs with hornet ring(with a great club) and beat a spear every time, its more about experience and patience really.

I've got no place in this argument. I'm providing no points for either side. I'm on my way out as far as souls PvP is concerned.

I'm going to quote my only post in this thread for re-railment. Please note I don't at any point in this post declare "Spears are better than everything"

Rynn wrote:I personally think Tier 1 weapons are weapons that force the user to have multiple tools, without weakening their impact. Such as the Moonlight Butterfly Horn, Velka's Rapier, and Moonlight greatsword: which all require virtually no strength or dex, and so are just free weapons for a int build.

What then makes Moonlight Butterfly Horn is Tier 1 weapon is that it's a long spear, which places it up there in the same ranks as the other long spears: which all require high strength, dex, or both. This makes Moonlight Butterfly horn, IMHO, a Tier 1 weapon because It shares all the strengths of other spears, while not sharing their weakness's (stat requirements, low damage, and weight.)

I think weapons need to be rated overall based on 6 Criteria.
In no particular order of importance.

Damage and Poise Potential Per Hit
Range
Swing and Recover Speed
Stamina usage.
Stamina drain (amount of stamina opponent loses for blocking)
Moveset.

With the exception of move set, all these criteria can be very objectively looked at in order to reach conclusions. But the moveset is important. Let's not forget Epic Name Bro, by ignoring the moveset criteria, declared the Great Scythe the best dex weapon in the game (Which against immobile targets, he'd be right.), and how easily such a statement could be challenged.

At least an honest answer. It is wrong, but at least some thought was put into it.

The part about some of the spears being better than others is definitely NOT wrong. Silver Knight Spear, Demon Spear, and Butterfly Horn are *not* the same thing as walking around with Spear +15. Different reach, different damage, different possibility of being buffed. Regular spear is probably out-classed to the degree that it's not a tier 1 weapon, whereas you can make a very strong case that other spear variants are tier 1 weapons alongside katanas.

By far the best way to create a tier list would be to use objective data, not have 5, 10, or even 20+ different people give their anecdotal experiences and then assert that X weapon is tier 1, 2, or 3 based on their own skill set. Without a means of objectively measuring the viability of weapons that can be agreed upon, the premise of this thread is somewhat absurd. You NEED that data. Especially because something like "if 2 robots played" isn't even a valid measure. A CPU poise tank that could stunlock + win trades would win that almost every time vs other CPU...if a caster didn't (I don't see AI dodging spells very much...all magic OP? Nerf the lightning miracles!)

Anyway, in creating a tier list it is ridiculous to go in with any assumptions whatsoever. What we need is raw data, and lots of it. Absent that, we have no tier list and the best we can do is look at some composite spreadsheet of Rynn's criteria to create one that is semi-ok but lacking in #'s that would allow us to at least somewhat quantify the move sets and matchup possibilities.