New interest I looked into a bit.

I need all the info I can on undead dragons. I'm loreseeking now, I want to know more about Izalith, as much as I can, and I think something heavily important connects to the Undead Dragon Bottom Halves.

Most I know, there are two undead dragon top halves, both drop dragon scales, connecting them to the everlasting dragons.

Someone once came up with this theory. It isn't mine, but here it is:

"Okay, so we all know that the Lords waged war against the dragons, and they won. But, they probably didn't kill every single one of the dragons, just most of them. So, the lords went on dragon hunts, and killed any and all of the remaining dragons. Then, they buried them in Lost Izalith. So, everything was grand, until the witch of Izalith tried to create a second flame, but instead created the chaos flame. So, all these buried dragons now were reincarnated by the chaos flame, and everything wasn't so grand anymore."

Again, not mine, so kudos to whoever came up with this. This is a paraphrase, by the way.

That makes sense. although it doesnt explain where all the top halves are or why there is one in the valley of the drakes.

Lost Izalith could be a basic dragon graveyard. I sure hope I find a secret somewhere in this game after this Chaos Servant test.

ChaosServantSpectre wrote:Lost Izalith could be a basic dragon graveyard. I sure hope I find a secret somewhere in this game after this Chaos Servant test.

Izalith strikes me as a city. Granted, one that has been beaten to dust over time, but a city none the less.

I'll have to test a Black Knight weapon to see if these dragons are Chaos demons. The halves need testing too.

Hello, I'm a new to Dark Souls, played the game blind and finished it yesterday.

All this lore thing is interesting to me, here's my 2 cents.

It's very interesting what you say about the Black Knight weapons, but most of you seem to have forgotten one thing.
Chaos demons were caused when the Witch of Izalith screwed things up trying to replicate the power of the Lord soul. Now, interesting enough, the description on the gold-hemmed says the witch herself has been using it BEFORE the age of fire, are we good up to there? allright.
Now, on the introduction the narrator says BEFORE there was fire, Dragons roamed the land, therefore I deduce the witches perfectly could be living among living everlasting dragons. After the war ceased and the Witch of Izalith tried to replicate the Lord soul, when things got out of hand she accidentally created the Bed of Chaos and gave birth to the Chaos Demons, right? well... why black knight weapons have such descriptions then? For them to develop such weapons they MUST have knowledge of the demons, and ofcourse, knowledge of what the witch and her daughters done.
We see Demons everywhere, on the Asylum, on Anor Londo, on Burg...

I took this from another videogame, Mass Effect, on my ending, there was this AI with the form of a kid giving out reasons why sentient life should be wiped out, and he explained "humans are the embodiment of Chaos" because I find very curious why chaos weapons do more damage with humanity.

Seems Gwyn and company were not that happy to find about what the witch and her daughters did, and sent knights with weapons crafted to deal with the mess... altho seems they all failed and lordran is pretty much overrun, hence why the rest of the Gods fled.

PD: Forgot to add, Chaos = fire, and also Chaos damage = humanity amount, coincidence?

Kerber0ss wrote:Hello, I'm a new to Dark Souls, played the game blind and finished it yesterday.

All this lore thing is interesting to me, here's my 2 cents.

It's very interesting what you say about the Black Knight weapons, but most of you seem to have forgotten one thing.
Chaos demons were caused when the Witch of Izalith screwed things up trying to replicate the power of the Lord soul. Now, interesting enough, the description on the gold-hemmed says the witch herself has been using it BEFORE the age of fire, are we good up to there? allright.
Now, on the introduction the narrator says BEFORE there was fire, Dragons roamed the land, therefore I deduce the witches perfectly could be living among living everlasting dragons. After the war ceased and the Witch of Izalith tried to replicate the Lord soul, when things got out of hand she accidentally created the Bed of Chaos and gave birth to the Chaos Demons, right? well... why black knight weapons have such descriptions then? For them to develop such weapons they MUST have knowledge of the demons, and ofcourse, knowledge of what the witch and her daughters done.
We see Demons everywhere, on the Asylum, on Anor Londo, on Burg...

I took this from another videogame, Mass Effect, on my ending, there was this AI with the form of a kid giving out reasons why sentient life should be wiped out, and he explained "humans are the embodiment of Chaos" because I find very curious why chaos weapons do more damage with humanity.

Seems Gwyn and company were not that happy to find about what the witch and her daughters did, and sent knights with weapons crafted to deal with the mess... altho seems they all failed and lordran is pretty much overrun, hence why the rest of the Gods fled.

PD: Forgot to add, Chaos = fire, and also Chaos damage = humanity amount, coincidence?

First of all, welcome to the forums. Second, I'll critique your message.

So, to start off, there were two important wars after the Age of Fire was started. First, the War of the Dragons, and second, the War of the Chaos Demons. Humans did exist before the age of fire, though they had no power and no real impact on the world. However, after the first flame and the discovery of the lord souls, they became powerful, and wanted to be on top, starting the war against the Dragons, and killed almost all of them in order to be on top. The Age of Fire lasted well for a few hundred years, but it started to fade. Upon it fading, the undead started to become a problem, and prophecy said, one shall rise to end the age of fire, and bring the age of man. Two of the three primary lords acted, one after the other due to the firsts mistakes.

The Witch of Izalith tried to restart the age with her own power. Her specialty was fire, so why should she not be able to create a new flame, a new soul, a way to perfectly preserve the age of fire. This next part is opinion, not fact. I believe Velka had sabotaged the soul used in cloning the flame, but thats a different story. This new soul was unable to satisfy the requirements, and its tainted essence took form, mutating those around it and birthing, as the Witch of Izalith had, beings of power and strength. These beings had no alliance but themselves, and only sought to take over all of Lordran and even the world itself. Gwyn had relied on the Witch to sustain the age of fire, and she failed, so he was up next, to find his own way to sustain the age. He took a seperate band of his knights, and they sought out to slay the demons, and sustain the age of fire. This was the start of the War of the Chaos Demons.

Now, reading the descriptions, the black knight weapons were simply used to simply fight the chaos demons. They had no specialization, but because of how hard the war was fought, they became a weapon feared by the demons, thus gaining strength against them. Gwyn succesfully fought off the demons, and sustained the age of fire, but at a huge cost, one that cost him his humanity, his knights, and almost his entire kingdom.

I do agree with the idea that "Humanity is the embodiment of chaos", and I honestly believe thats the reference brought up in the game. The more human you are, the more problems you cause, the more chaotic energy you generate. Fire is chaos, the flames know no peace, and simply destroy, much as a human has the capacity to.

But yeah, most of what I have stated is backed up by in game evidence, or item descriptions.

Still, good outlook on it all

I really don't think the intention of the Witch was to continue the age of fire, cooperating with Gwyn sounds too... well intentioned.
See it like this, Gwyn is the most powerful of all the dudes who found the Lord souls, wouldn't you be rather jealous? The way I see it, the Witch became power greedy, went too far to replicate the lord soul, even using Demon arts to try and replicate its power, Gwyn also was resisting the idea of being crippled after linking the fire, so if there could be a chance on whatever the Witch discovered, I'm pretty sure he would not be wiled to share such knowledge, and seeing how everyone has a tendency to go mad on Lordran, I think Gwyn lost his sanity when he lost the power he initially gained... but the question remains, where are the true gods?

When I fought Seath I remember an NPC saying he was in possession of an ancient Dragon crystal, that was his only tool for immortality... which makes me wonder... Dragons weren't the primal beasts we think they are, since they somehow created that crystal, meaning they were as sentient as we are. I wouldn't be surprised if, long long before the age of fire, dragons kept the original demons at bay while coexisting with the humans or whatever ancient people lived (since I believe Lord souls are remnants of power of an even more ancient people, older than the Witch of Izalith herself)

The primordial crystal was a treasure of the dragons, they didnt neccesarily create it.

The witch of izalith only created the chaos flame when the first flame went out. Scared of losing her power (that of the fire sorceries) she attempted to recreate the flame, one of her own, to regain her lost her power.

Gwyn did not go hollow until after he linked with the fire. With chaos running rampant, Seath betraying the gods and the 4 kings falling to the dark he realised he had failed and hollowed.

The Lord Soul of Izalith specifically states that the demons were created from the bed of chaos, so I doubt the Dragons were fighting demons. I do believe the dragons were sentient, especially being seath is sentient.

And that could be true, the Witch and Gwyn may have been enemies. As for where the true gods went, it seems that the true gods are the dragons and the the archtrees, which the trees are everywhere, but yet only one dragon is left standing in full form. However, part of me thinks that the true god is the world itself. It decides when to just mess with things really. The first flame was made, inside it the souls of lords, changing the age. Then the undead come around, and they are fated to change the age again. Part of me seems to think that the world changes whenever it wants really.

I think I didn't made my post clear XD sorry there.
What I could get is that before there were Chaos demons the world had normal demons, how I know this? on the Izalith Catalyst description it says the original Witch copied the arts of the Firesage Demon BEFORE the age of fire. My hypothesis on the dragons keeping the demons at bay comes from the dragon torsos on Lost Izalith.
Also, I think dragons were pretty much capable of doing science (in terms of dark souls universe that is, kinda like the the dragon school XD, hence the name?) that was a totally unrelated comment by the way XD

DoughGuy wrote:The primordial crystal was a treasure of the dragons, they didnt neccesarily create it.

The witch of izalith only created the chaos flame when the first flame went out. Scared of losing her power (that of the fire sorceries) she attempted to recreate the flame, one of her own, to regain her lost her power.

Gwyn did not go hollow until after he linked with the fire. With chaos running rampant, Seath betraying the gods and the 4 kings falling to the dark he realised he had failed and hollowed.

I find the Scale of Immortality/ The Primordial crystal to be moot when it comes to Dragons as they were supposed to be immortal anyway.

I figure The Scales of Immortality are simply a reference to Dragons that were not born as cripples/broken like Seathe was. Normal Dragons like the Everlasting Dragon have scales and thus are healthy and retain thier immortality. whereas Seathe born with (I cant remember the name of the condition) was born with no scales, no eyes, and has a stunted lower torso.

As for the Crystal it is my opinion that this was not a common malady for Dragons but was by no means a unique thing to Seathe. Thus the Crystal was created by the Dragons ( I dont see why they didnt make them) to allow for the mortal Dragons to live on.

Dragons seem sapient enough given Seathe was able to communicate/ ally himself with Gwyn and lives in a Library thus I would suggest that they were able to create thier own technologies/ artifacts much like humans.

The Crystal would just be the way dragons made things within thier culture, it being totally alien from our own.

Nowhere in the description does it say the witch of izalith copied the firesage - "Demon catalyst formed from Izalith
molten rock. Can be used as fire weapon. The Demon Firesage was the
first demon, and the last master of the original fire arts, before the
Witch of Izalith was engulfed by Chaos, creating pyromancy."
The dragons didnt really do anything. They were everlasting, they just stood around doing nothing much,

@Viral Unless Seath was a human that turned into a dragon? He created the crystal but it was stolen by the dragons.

I dont think that he was a human. I say this because it says in the intro that Seathe betrayed his own kind. You cant be of the same "kind" as the Dragons unless you are a natural one yourself. You can be like one, or be essentially one, but you are what you are nonetheless.

Ah no time of Philosophy here. Back to the topic at hand.

Wyrms gonna test whether the dragons are demons or not using the black knight weps. That will give us clues to their origions, whether they are chaos based or undead. Of note is that Logan calls Seath a true undead. Perhaps something changed all dragons, Seath, still alive, was made the way he is while all the dead dragons split in half and started walking. Also does someone wants to watch the inttro and see if they can spot any dragons in the witch scene.

I dont think how the BK weapons work on Dragons will reveal anything conclusive and IMO Dragons came before the Demons thus they are different. If the Dragon Corpses were warped by the power of the Chaos Flame it does not make Dragons themselves Demons of Chaos.

"Catalyst of the Witch of Izalith of long ago, when her daughters were still flame witches, before they were engulfed by the Chaos Flame. Before the birth of pyromancy, their wands were mediums for sorcery, but knowledge of this flame sorcery has long since vanished"

You can't handle something you don't know, pyromancy was first, chaos magic was second, since pyromancy seems more gentle with more philosofical meaning (Listen how Laurentius explains it) implying the firesage was the first demon, for me means he was an "original demon" not a chaos created abomination.

Also, I have a theory on the crystals... see how the undead knight has crystals but has gone hollow already? well... the Primordial crystal Seath has, if Seath could find out how it works, maybe he could have his "own" medium of immortality, not having to depend on a crystal, and I understand where he tried to go with that. See him, he's deformed, an outcast "Seath, the Scaleless" being called names, having no legs, not being immortal; that's quite a burden there.

Seath must have discovered a way to replicate the crystal power, but also madness seems to be a side effect, his lower part, starting to become covered in crystals half prove this. Maybe he was in the process of covering himself with crystal like scales but became mad in the process. But of course Seath was no fool, he must have observed that already from his experiments, maybe he thought he could handle it, with such knowledge he could thought of something, only he couldn't, when he started covering himself with the crystal scales his sanity slowly drifted away, until the point he is absolutely mad.

Being dependent of the for someone like Seath (a deformed) its as shameful as needing to wear a prosthesis, if only he could have scales on his own...

Also I don't think he has no eyes, how else could he read? maybe very very tinny eyes, but no eyes at all... unless all of his archives are in braile

Kerber0ss wrote:"Catalyst of the Witch of Izalith of long ago, when her daughters were still flame witches, before they were engulfed by the Chaos Flame. Before the birth of pyromancy, their wands were mediums for sorcery, but knowledge of this flame sorcery has long since vanished"

You can't handle something you don't know, pyromancy was first, chaos magic was second, since pyromancy seems more gentle with more philosofical meaning (Listen how Laurentius explains it) implying the firesage was the first demon, for me means he was an "original demon" not a chaos created abomination.

Also, I have a theory on the crystals... see how the undead knight has crystals but has gone hollow already? well... the Primordial crystal Seath has, if Seath could find out how it works, maybe he could have his "own" medium of immortality, not having to depend on a crystal, and I understand where he tried to go with that. See him, he's deformed, an outcast "Seath, the Scaleless" being called names, having no legs, not being immortal; that's quite a burden there.

Seath must have discovered a way to replicate the crystal power, but also madness seems to be a side effect, his lower part, starting to become covered in crystals half prove this. Maybe he was in the process of covering himself with crystal like scales but became mad in the process. But of course Seath was no fool, he must have observed that already from his experiments, maybe he thought he could handle it, with such knowledge he could thought of something, only he couldn't, when he started covering himself with the crystal scales his sanity slowly drifted away, until the point he is absolutely mad.

Also I don't think he has no eyes, how else could he read? maybe very very tinny eyes, but no eyes at all... unless all of his archives are in braile

I've bolded the important part. Where it says the witch used flame sorcery before pyromancy was born.

Basically the witches were still pyromancers prior to the bed of chaos. But instead of self-actualization of their own flame they were sorcerers. As they became engulfed in flame and demons like the firesage rose up the witches were engulfed in the chaos flame altering the nature of their "pyromancy" from flame sorcery to the real pyromancy we know today.

Meaning the firesage did not teach them.

Buggy Virus wrote:Basically the witches were still pyromancers prior to the bed of chaos. But instead of self-actualization of their own flame they were sorcerers. As they became engulfed in flame and demons like the firesage rose up the witches were engulfed in the chaos flame altering the nature of their "pyromancy" from flame sorcery to the real pyromancy we know today.

Meaning the firesage did not teach them.

the witches were not pyromances before the bed of chaos. they were witches, witches who cast flame sorceries. The firesage was a male who learned the flame sorceries but was turned into a demon by the ned of chaos. When the bed of chaos was born and her sisters were engulfed by it Quelana used the power of the first and chaos flames to create a new type of maigc, pyromancy. the flame sorceries were thus forgotten.

I thought seaths lack of scales made him vulnerable, and the crystal research was him trying to grow his own scales.