Gender Issue Discussion

by Tolvo Wed Aug 07, 2013 1:30 am

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Post n°176

Re: Gender Issue Discussion

Post by Tolvo Wed Aug 07, 2013 1:30 am

I believe he is just trynig to bring up these topics so they can be discussed further. There needs to be opposition in any discussion so the opposition can be examined and refuted, understood, or accepted.

Similar to using a bit of hyperbole to show off an idea. To refute Animal's claims about women thinking about sex less I used the statistic of the number of females in science and making another wild claim (Women are dumber) to illustrate that drawing conclusions from such statistics in such a way doesn't lead to the truth.

by Slarg232 Wed Aug 07, 2013 1:34 am

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Post n°177

Re: Gender Issue Discussion

Post by Slarg232 Wed Aug 07, 2013 1:34 am

Oh god yeah, women have WAAY bigger sex drives then men.

I'm friends with an even mix of men and women. Men talk about having sex, to be sure, but women go into FULL detail. It's terrifying when you actually know the guys they are describing.....

Also, let's not kid ourselves, when a Manly Magazine talks about guns, it talks about guns. You can't look at a typically female oriented magazine without seeing "Increasing your Sex Drive", "20 steamy secrets for scandalous sex!" or similar.*

And yeah, Tolvo has it right; I believe men and women should pursue their objectives/dreams whatever to their fullest; men want to care give? Go ahead. Women want to work? Go ahead. I'm just trying to be the "Bad Guy" and am probably doing a bad job of it.

*This is only my opinion and the small focus group I have, please don't crucify me.

by **FexDS** Wed Aug 07, 2013 1:44 am

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Post n°178

Re: Gender Issue Discussion

Post by FexDS Wed Aug 07, 2013 1:44 am

Slarg232 wrote:
How do they not?

In and of themselves, they do not, it's true.

But taking care of a child in the earlier stages brings familiarity with the child, a close bond, and other such nonsense. Therefore, you could technically link the woman's wider hips to better care giving later on; if only because being better right off the bat means you already have the experience later on.

This is not a genetic determination that woman are better caregivers. You can argue that initial contact with the newborn can create attachment but is equally available to fathers ( http://groups.anthropology.northwestern.edu/lhbr/kuzawa_web_files/pdfs/Gettler%20et%20al%20Horm%20Behavior%20in%20press.pdf_ ), siblings, and any other human who cohabits with the infant and helps change diapers. The dependency of the child on the mother's feeding (which is modernly almost zero as sadly so many people chose to bottle feed) does not necessarily create a connection and often women are tired and angry at their babies for it. Of that there is research and even support groups as again it is societaly encouraged for the woman to take on all this responsibility.

Either way, 3 months of breastfeeding =/= better care giving for 15 years. The concept that woman are better at staying at home and genetically engineered to do so is preposterous, and that was the argument that was originally presented.

I understand you don't necessarily hold those views, but it's a stretch to try to correlate female hips with the long term protection, intellectual and psychological development of a "new" human being.

@Tolvo

I don't mind bringing other points but please bring researched points not wild ideas. Wild ideas bring speculation on conjecture that leads nowhere. What if female feet being smaller is a genetic tactic to avoid our tracks being seen so we don't fall to predators?! So, if you have specific and researched points to make go ahead, but don't come up with your own book of string theories because it really adds little to the discussion as it dilutes the real sexism/gender problems (a god given role to be a homemaker?!) and instead has people doing back and forth on petty technicalities.

Last edited by FexDS on Wed Aug 07, 2013 2:23 am; edited 4 times in total

by Tolvo Wed Aug 07, 2013 1:49 am

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Post n°179

Re: Gender Issue Discussion

Post by Tolvo Wed Aug 07, 2013 1:49 am

Alright understood.

by **FexDS** Wed Aug 07, 2013 1:54 am

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Post n°180

Re: Gender Issue Discussion

Post by FexDS Wed Aug 07, 2013 1:54 am

To move this discussion towards the "slut shaming" culture, which is actually to the detriment of both men and women... how difficult is it to believe a lawyer is trying to argue a 14 year old consented to her **** by her guard because: “These girls in the detention center are not Little Miss Muffin,”

by Slarg232 Wed Aug 07, 2013 1:55 am

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Post n°181

Re: Gender Issue Discussion

Post by Slarg232 Wed Aug 07, 2013 1:55 am

It's a Lawyer, those "people" ain't human.

by Tolvo Wed Aug 07, 2013 2:04 am

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Post n°182

Re: Gender Issue Discussion

Post by Tolvo Wed Aug 07, 2013 2:04 am

For a second there I thought you linked me to the Onion, throwing everything out of the window gender wise she was 14 anyway.

Taking into account that she co-operated that doesn't matter, she was under age and could not give consent.

In regards to her being in a detention center, again so what. Criminals/suspects are people too. If a woman was **** by a prison guard the defense shouldn't be, "Well you know, she was a murderer." That's not how the law works and just because someone has done something wrong in the past does not mean they deserve such a thing.

by **FexDS** Wed Aug 07, 2013 2:09 am

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Post n°183

Re: Gender Issue Discussion

Post by FexDS Wed Aug 07, 2013 2:09 am

The point here is that there is enough of a societal "sluts get whats coming" that the lawyers thought it would be wise to make such a statement. It would ofc hold no legal ground whatsoever because of the age and it's aggravated by the setting, but they are appealing to a societal construct and hoping the judge falls for it. I imagine he won't, but I still find it facepalm worthy that they tried.

by Tolvo Wed Aug 07, 2013 2:30 am

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Post n°184

Re: Gender Issue Discussion

Post by Tolvo Wed Aug 07, 2013 2:30 am

Women use men for sex, men use women for sex, men use men for sex, women use women for sex.

People use people for sex.

Some people just like it more than others, regardless of gender they shouldn't be shamed for it. Though my biggest issue with slut is yes, it is a gender exclusive term. Which there should be much less of in general.

While I was heating my Enchilada I was thinking a bit about certain RPG games and how they treat genders or even races. For instance older Elder Scrolls games gave different stats based upon your gender, women got more mental/social stats if I remember correctly while men got more physical ones.

Compared to a game like Fallout New Vegas, which has gender exclusive traits/perks with equal counterparts. What is it, Cherchez la Femme, which is the homosexual female perk which gives bonus against attacking women and extra dialogue, males have Confirmed Bachelor, which does the same just to men. While there are perks like black widow, or the male counterpart which I can't remember, which give perks against the opposite gender.

A simple mechanics issue I can note with that one is the bonus damage is lop sided, Confirmed Bachelor and Black Widow are more useful since most enemies in game are male.

by Animaaal Wed Aug 07, 2013 2:31 am

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Post n°185

Re: Gender Issue Discussion

Post by Animaaal Wed Aug 07, 2013 2:31 am

Man I got quoted a lot lol. Haven't read it yet.

However, I just got soooooooo lade because of when I said this:

previous post :

I'd like to elaborate more. Sorry again for not reading, but I'm tired as he|| now and I think any new stay at home father can learn a lot from what I'm saying and also understand his own feelings a little better.

I'll give you my first hand example of how relative genetic make up is in child care.

When my wife was the full time care giver, she was sad through her own disease, and then by the thought of our son's. Her problems completely revolved around compassion and love. That's all that made it difficult for her.

My problems and hurdles are completely different. I'm a man, kids are annoying when you're around them alllllll the time. They're like little knee high trolls snipping at your heals all day lol. Its really insane from a man's point of view. The only thing that gave me an edge compared to almost every other stay at home father I've met, is my understanding of this. I approach things completely different than my wife. I am authoritarian. When I want something to happen it happens, no tears. I mean there's tears, but I try not to laugh, keep my composure and the damn toys get picked up. Point Forward

My biggest hurdle is privacy. I do not want to be around them all the time. Heck its summer time and I've taken them outside running them around spraying them with the hose and shooting them with water guns laughing my a$$ off, with the ONLY intention of MAKING ABSOLUTELY SURE the little angles take a nap. I...want....to...go...out in the garage...... Evil Fex

This is natural. I'm a man. There are many MANY men out there staying at home now in this country. I'm here to tell ya fellas, its fine. The way you feel is natural.

Men and women are different in this regard. If you disagree fine, I'll read the complaints later, but I'll just reference all the single moms compared to all the single dads we see in society.

We are different....and that's the way it should be.

***edit****

Good night, and again sorry for just "chiming in".

by **FexDS** Wed Aug 07, 2013 2:35 am

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Post n°186

Re: Gender Issue Discussion

Post by FexDS Wed Aug 07, 2013 2:35 am

Are you trolling? Because it is not welcome. Read the replies to your post before adding more unfounded, anecdotal, sexist sputs of irrelevant gender stereotyping..

by Tolvo Wed Aug 07, 2013 2:52 am

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Post n°187

Re: Gender Issue Discussion

Post by Tolvo Wed Aug 07, 2013 2:52 am

So about what I was talking about earlier Fex, what do you think about the fallout Perk Mechanics? There are equal parts to both sides, sexual options for both. I find that the main issue is balancing it, in regards to dealing damage as well as certain effects. Some characters like an NCR trooper early on can only give you a massive discount if you are a homosexual male, so if you want that discount badly go male with the perk. For more important character like Cass the male and female counterparts both work, but there are minor balancing issues. Do you think it would be fine if it was balanced? 50% of enemies are male, 50% female? I know skyrim has a similar perk, a discount from the opposite gender. And when making characters I do find myself going, "I will focus on this city, most vendors in this city are male so I'll go female." Or, "The thieves guild fence is female, to go thief which is speech based and focused on making money to make the most money in the long run I have to go male>"

If they managed to get the balance within a 45/55 margin would you find that acceptable?

by Animaaal Wed Aug 07, 2013 2:53 am

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Post n°188

Re: Gender Issue Discussion

Post by Animaaal Wed Aug 07, 2013 2:53 am

No. I just thought it would be courteous to state outright that the conversation got ahead of what I could keep up with before I went to bed.

I just logged on to start reading again...wasn't worth it.

And also Fex, imo, you attacked Reaperfan a little harsh imo and I think you are coming off a little defensive.

I never said a woman SHOULD stay home, only that they're better at it.

If you stop and think about how society is teaching everyone that women should stay home and rear children, you should look at how many two income family households there are now and how that point of view coincides with the extreme capitalistic agenda.

Society isn't teaching anyone to stay home, society is teaching people to abandon it for a desk.

Good bye.

by nsane32 Wed Aug 07, 2013 3:05 am

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Post n°189

Re: Gender Issue Discussion

Post by nsane32 Wed Aug 07, 2013 3:05 am

Tolvo wrote:So about what I was talking about earlier Fex, what do you think about the fallout Perk Mechanics? There are equal parts to both sides, sexual options for both. I find that the main issue is balancing it, in regards to dealing damage as well as certain effects. Some characters like an NCR trooper early on can only give you a massive discount if you are a homosexual male, so if you want that discount badly go male with the perk. For more important character like Cass the male and female counterparts both work, but there are minor balancing issues. Do you think it would be fine if it was balanced? 50% of enemies are male, 50% female? I know skyrim has a similar perk, a discount from the opposite gender. And when making characters I do find myself going, "I will focus on this city, most vendors in this city are male so I'll go female." Or, "The thieves guild fence is female, to go thief which is speech based and focused on making money to make the most money in the long run I have to go male>"

If they managed to get the balance within a 45/55 margin would you find that acceptable?

in Fallout 3 the female only perks where alot better female characters could run fast and considering that 75% of humans you fight are male black widow is alot more useful

by **FexDS** Wed Aug 07, 2013 3:11 am

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Post n°190

Re: Gender Issue Discussion

Post by FexDS Wed Aug 07, 2013 3:11 am

You are entitled to your opinion Animaal, I still think you are incorrect - no I didn't "attack" anyone. Your inferences are not of my creation and I can take no responsibility for your lack of comprehension.

And if you can't be bothered to bring backing to your outlandish claims and will simply try to dismiss well researched arguments because they don't fit your world view, whilst inserting more unfounded remarks based solely on your personal and limited experience, you are being discourteous to your fellow participants and as such aren't adding to the conversation. As such, you won't be missed in this thread happy

@Tolvo
I'm still trying to understand what you mean about the mechanics. I do not think there is specific merit in dissecting every single aspect of every game or story or mechanic to see if everything measures to equality - just because there are male and female traits it doesn't immediately mean there is overt sexism that is giving the wrong message or indulging in lazy tropes. Can you explain further?

by Tolvo Wed Aug 07, 2013 3:17 am

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Post n°191

Re: Gender Issue Discussion

Post by Tolvo Wed Aug 07, 2013 3:17 am

That's kind of what I was asking, if you think there is a major issue with such a thing or if it is just playing upon sexual aspects one can use in a mature game, with options that are considered equal between males and females aside from certain issues with things like the number of male enemies. It generally matters on only the highest difficulties for Min/Maxers, where another 10% extra damage can mean life or death against a Deathclaw.

I'm a gamer like many others here I'm assuming, so it's just easier for me to sort of evaluate things a bit through the gaming medium, whether through mechanics, art choices, or narrative choices.

by **FexDS** Wed Aug 07, 2013 3:27 am

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Post n°192

Re: Gender Issue Discussion

Post by FexDS Wed Aug 07, 2013 3:27 am

The reason we don't have an "omg inequality!!" thread for every game ever created would be that it would be pointless and nitpicky. Whilst ongoing "small" messages about female and male roles in all aspects of entertainment are concerning, it is usually the blunt, overt and undeniably sexist displays that should come under criticism (ie. sexual objectification or role mockery). The main points to usually consider are not about small aspects but what are usually referred to as "representations" - Are they presenting the males as inherently stronger/smarter/more resourceful than the female? Are the females being valued or sold on their looks or sexual capabilities and their personalities become void? When there is a "funny" poke is it that tired old comeback sexist joke or is it actually a jest you could hear in a room full of strangers of all genders and not feel it was inadequate?

As an example, you are playing a detective game where you interrogate people here and there to solve crimes. It's a mystery game with tactical facial expression reading. 8 chapters into the game, you are thrown into a fanservice of unavoidable 15 minutes of having to have a girls crotch on your face as she lap dances for you because that is your "mission". Is this worth pointing out? yes, because the developers purposefully took the player to a stripclub to put him in that situation and then ensured half of your screen was covered by a naked girl because "hey that's what guys like and they'll be happy about it" even though the player didn't buy a stripper game: he/she bought a mystery detective one.

The perks? I don't know how the affect the perception of the genders as I haven't applied them to find out, but if they are operating as "racial" mechanics and they are not purposefully pushing a stereotype, I don't see much point in discussing.

by Tolvo Wed Aug 07, 2013 3:35 am

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Post n°193

Re: Gender Issue Discussion

Post by Tolvo Wed Aug 07, 2013 3:35 am

Alright understood, that's pretty much what I was asking is whether or not it was something that should be extremely analyzed if it is more so just a mechanics issue rather than representation. For instance in game there are male hookers, there actually is hinted sexual assault in the game but it is treated as horrible by those outside of Caesar's legion, and Caesar's legion in game is seen as being evil. There are female rangers and soldiers, the only thing is that every single leader in game is male. But that is more so a thing with the background, previously in fallout the leader of the NCR was female but she is no longer in office and now a man is. Go a bit back in the history and a woman was at the head of the NCR. In game there is a quest to unlock a male hooker that can be used like the female ones, generally there is a male/female counterpart to everything in game except for Caesar's Legion based ideas, but again they're seen as sexist slaving raiders. Even then a female character can join the legion and the raiders mention, "I did not think a woman could be that strong," "You may be a woman but I know not to try and overpower you." The only thing is that female characters can't go into the Caesar's Legion arena, though it really adds little in game. And it is only restriction from killing slaves, you can still fight war hounds to get a teddy bear which belongs to a young slave.

So I'd say generally the game is okay aside from just some mechanics issues depending on if you are extremely min/maxing. I was just wondering what you thought about the subject and how far we should really dissect something.

by nsane32 Wed Aug 07, 2013 3:48 am

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Post n°194

Re: Gender Issue Discussion

Post by nsane32 Wed Aug 07, 2013 3:48 am

the only problem I see with video games is that they can see this problem 2 years into development with the only way to fix it is to hold the game back for half a year and run the risk of losing all their money

by **skarekrow13** Wed Aug 07, 2013 9:42 am

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Post n°195

Re: Gender Issue Discussion

Post by skarekrow13 Wed Aug 07, 2013 9:42 am

Regarding Animaaal's posts, I know plenty of mother's (my next door neighbor for instance) who are far more concerned with, privacy I think it was said, or their own desires more than that of their children. For instance, she will sit on the porch with her friends while her son does.....whatever.....with an occasional yell to "stop doing ____" as her method of parenting. The last two summers they set up a little pool for him and another child who comes over on occasion (I'm not sure of the relationship to be honest). She and the rest of the adult household will invite friends over and hang out in the yard, have fires or whatnot. Clean fun, they're actually not too offensive on their own. However, the little boy is usually just running around and jumping in the pool while they have their little party. Both years the pool has been allowed to become green and slimy. She allows the dog they have to crap in their yard where he plays. All over. We actually stay away from that side of OUR yard just in case she let the dog near us. I'm fairly confident she's seen me and my daughter and connected us to our home. Essentially, she just don't give a ****

I won't surmise to know how she feels about motherhood but if I had to guess she sees it as a prison at times too. She's certainly doing her best to escape.

I wish I could say she was unique in that regard.

Why are there more single mothers than single fathers? It's legally and socially easier for Dad to leave. To the point where I've seen custody of children go to a CLEARLY unfit mother rather than a stable father.

by **skarekrow13** Wed Aug 07, 2013 9:48 am

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Post n°196

Re: Gender Issue Discussion

Post by skarekrow13 Wed Aug 07, 2013 9:48 am

I felt this deserved it's own post.

93 years later

A few thoughts on my end:

by Tolvo Wed Aug 07, 2013 9:59 am

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Post n°197

Re: Gender Issue Discussion

Post by Tolvo Wed Aug 07, 2013 9:59 am

http://www.theouthousers.com/index.php/news/123360-dc-shocker-wb-merchandising-ruins-super-best-friends-forever.html So this is also a thing that has popped up, heard about this from a friend who is really pissed off about this. I think some of the arguments aren't really an issue, such as some complaining that they were thinner. In the case of Wonder Girl and Bat Girl, in the cartoon they are anorexic about in appearance, with Supergirl being muscular. Though she has this tiny waist that makes her lower half look like a literal bell. Though the making them all wear skirts, and giving Supergirl a skirt aspect are pretty odd choices. I think in regards to the artistic difference in face and such, they wanted to make the bodies similar so they could more easily mass produce toys likely, as well the original cartoon would look incredibly strange in 3d which the toy line would have to be. Although I can say to me at least it seems like for the toy lines they are going for less powerful and more so trying to look pretty, while the show appears to be about presenting them as capable crime fighters.

By the way on a Side Note for Skare, might be a little short series your daughter could enjoy. Superhero teenage girls. Supergirl loses to Super Man because he calls his mother to scold her, not by actually fighting her since she sort of beats him. Solomon Grundy doesn't believe in hitting women since he thinks they're weak, and they kick the crap out of him anyway while he reconsiders not hitting girls. The only thing is it seems like it is a very short series with only minute long episodes.

But yeah, the costume changes seem to be more of an issue with a change from a leotard which covers the full body, a jumpsuit-like outfit, and then Super Girls uniform to these skirted outfits with Supergirl suddenly wearing pink. The pink thing likely is them just going, "We need a pink characters so girls will know it's for girls, cause only girls like pink." I don't think it is quite as complex an explanation as the one behind Pink Batman.

Gender Issue Discussion - Page 8 6a00e554e5232c88340148c785f79c970c-550wi

Gender Issue Discussion - Page 8 6a00e554e5232c88340148c785f79c970c-550wi

by **FexDS** Wed Aug 07, 2013 10:31 am

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Post n°198

Re: Gender Issue Discussion

Post by FexDS Wed Aug 07, 2013 10:31 am

I find modern trends on child clothing rather disturbing in many regards... some of them not only have sexist messages but also attempt to "sexualize" little girls. High heels, cleavage, bikinis etc for girls as young as 3 give me the creeps.

Edit: also wow Skare nice find. Sorta cringe/laughed at the pictures the way I cringe/laugh when someone tells me I can't play games because I'm a girl xD

Last edited by FexDS on Wed Aug 07, 2013 10:36 am; edited 1 time in total

by Tolvo Wed Aug 07, 2013 10:35 am

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Post n°199

Re: Gender Issue Discussion

Post by Tolvo Wed Aug 07, 2013 10:35 am

...Those are joke shirts right? Those aren't really shirts right? Please tell me those don't exist and someone just made those as pranks.

by **FexDS** Wed Aug 07, 2013 10:38 am

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Post n°200

Re: Gender Issue Discussion

Post by FexDS Wed Aug 07, 2013 10:38 am

The girls section: http://www.childrensplace.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/product_10001_10001_-1_1048700

The boys section: http://www.childrensplace.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/product_10001_10001_-1_1015485_862936_26601|542468_boy|graphic%20tees_boy

I actually browsed the whole thing hoping they'd have some sort of similar joke for boys. Nope. Lots of "I'm great" sorta things there tho. Le sigh.

Last edited by FexDS on Wed Aug 07, 2013 10:42 am; edited 1 time in total

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