The Search for Lore

Also bubbahotep you have not mentioned killing gwyndolin?

So has anyone made the connection Acidic did with the knghts and dragons and with velka and the dragon?

Sorry, should have mentioned that I have killed Gwyndolin as well. I'm certain that either Acidic Cook is correct in saying that the humanity bonus is an effect of leaving the area open for invasions, or that somewhere is a hidden spot for the white seance ring.

I was thinking about the fact that you obtain the ring from a hidden location in the catacombs and thought that perhaps the white seance ring works the same way, only instead of finding it hidden, you must find the hidden location, much like how the great hollow has two illusionary walls. A hidden location within a hidden location.

The white seance ring ties into the way of white and is linked to All-father Loyd, so I've started looking for places that are associated with the way of white. I had thoughts about the painted world, as it seems to have been a monastery that has been converted into a prison/sanctuary (odd contradiction), but it seems more under the influence of Velka.

Or the content was cut by Bandi in a time saving effort.

Bubbahotep wrote:Sorry, should have mentioned that I have killed Gwyndolin as well. I'm certain that either Acidic Cook is correct in saying that the humanity bonus is an effect of leaving the area open for invasions, or that somewhere is a hidden spot for the white seance ring.

I was thinking about the fact that you obtain the ring from a hidden location in the catacombs and thought that perhaps the white seance ring works the same way, only instead of finding it hidden, you must find the hidden location, much like how the great hollow has two illusionary walls. A hidden location within a hidden location.

The white seance ring ties into the way of white and is linked to All-father Loyd, so I've started looking for places that are associated with the way of white. I had thoughts about the painted world, as it seems to have been a monastery that has been converted into a prison/sanctuary (odd contradiction), but it seems more under the influence of Velka.

Or the content was cut by Bandi in a time saving effort.

Painted world supposedly looks allot like ollacile with the suggestion that ariamis is from oolacile.

Acidic_Cook wrote:There are seven daughters, as it seems to show in the prologue. We know that one is dead by ceaseless, one in the swamp, two are spider Demon's, and one that resides in Izalith. If the son of chaos was in their instead of a daughter, their is still one daughter missing.

The Chaos Family are as follows;

Daughters:
Quelaag
Qeelaag's Sister
Quelana
The Sister in Izalith
The dead one by Ceaseless
The left orb of The Bed of Chaos
The Right orb of The Bed of Chaos

Son: Ceaseless Discharge

Mother of Chaos and Witch of Izalith: The main Bed of Chaos.

I found some interesting things today whilst foraging around on Wikipedia regarding Arthurian lore. The Welsh version, to be precise. None of this is probably related, but it could be. I'm on painkillers so bear with me.

Some Welsh and Breton tales and poems relating the story of Arthur date from earlier than this work; in these works, Arthur appears either as a great warrior defending Britain from human and supernatural enemies or as a magical figure of folklore, sometimes associated with the Welsh Otherworld, Annwn.

Welsh Otherworld, hmm...

Ruled by Arawn, or much later by Gwyn ap Nudd, it was essentially a world of delights and eternal youth where disease is absent and food is ever-abundant.

Sounds like a nice place.

The similarly mythological epic poem Cad Goddeu describes a battle between Gwynedd and the forces of Annwn, lead again by Arawn.

The denizens of Annwn are depicted as bizarre and hellish creatures; these include a "wide-mawed" beast with a hundred heads and bearing a host beneath the root of its tongue and another under its neck, a hundred-clawed black-groined toad, and a "mottled ridged serpent, with a thousand souls, by their sins, tortured in the holds of its flesh"

Oh wait, no it doesn't.

Gwydion, the Venedotian hero and magician successfully defeats Arawn's army; first by enchanting the trees to rise up and fight, and secondly by guessing the name of the enemy hero Bran, thus winning the battle.

More on him in a minute.

In Culhwch and Olwen, an early Welsh Arthurian tale, it is said God gave Gwyn ap Nudd control over the demons lest "this world be destroyed." Tradition revolves around Gwyn leading his spectral rouds, the Cwn Annwn ("Hounds of Annwn") on his hunt for mortal souls.

Neat. As far as I know there aren't any Gywns in the usual Arthurian stories, so maybe this is where they got the name from. So this other guy, Gwydion, was a magician and trickster, apparently, but in other stories...

Lloyd Alexander's Chronicles of Prydain, a series of fantasy novels inspired by Welsh myths, features a character named Gwydion, based somewhat on the Gwydion of myth, but markedly different in terms of moral character... In the books, Prince Gwydion is an expert tracker, forester and warrior. As a member of the Royal House of Don, he often wears a pendant depicting a simple golden disk meant to represent the sun.

Interesting, but probably nothing. I'm just throwing this stuff out here for food for thought.

Some more interesting tidbits related to Arthurian lore:

Twrch Trwyth is an enchanted wild boar in Arthurian legend, which King Arthur or his men pursued with the aid of Arthur's dog Cavall or Cafall (Latin: Cabal).

Picture looks familiar, maybe it could have served as inspiration.


Last but not least, the myth of the sunken city of Lyonesse:

Alfred, Lord Tennyson's Arthurian epic Idylls of the King, describes Lyonesse as the site of the final battle between Arthur and Mordred. One passage in particular references legends of Lyonesse as a land fated to sink beneath the ocean:


Then rose the King and moved his host by night
And ever pushed Sir Mordred, league by league,
Back to the sunset bound of Lyonesse--
A land of old upheaven from the abyss
By fire, to sink into the abyss again;
Where fragments of forgotten peoples dwelt,
And the long mountains ended in a coast
Of ever-shifting sand, and far away

The phantom circle of a moaning sea.

I know all of this is really reaching for straws, but hey, its interesting stuff either way.

Sources: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Annwn
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Twrch_Trwyth
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lyonesse
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gwydion

Its clearly an inspiration! I think miyazaki might have mentioned Arthurian and Breton folklore in that radio interview (where he teased the optional ceaseless discharge info)


Btw you should make your own thread on this i bet allot more dots will get joined,

Eolan wrote:Its clearly an inspiration! I think miyazaki might have mentioned Arthurian and Breton folklore in that radio interview (where he teased the optional ceaseless discharge info)


Btw you should make your own thread on this i bet allot more dots will get joined,

Yeah I actually meant to post this in the "Linking External/Internal Lore" thread, but the Vicodin was kicking in pretty hard I guess

I apologise in advance if this has already been mentioned because I only read the first few posts out of curiosity but I am still on my first playthrough and have an Estus +7... moot point really I know but thought I would point it out for reference.

Comrades of the Archives! Of the forums of all! It is I! Acidic Cook! And I return, for now. Heh, the hood is a little bit lighter than usual. Although the sun is a bit smudge, never extinguished... although might need some new garbs. But yes... I have returned to my old, old lair. Welcome.

If you remember me, I am the Secret Hunter. I am the one who searches in the world of the dying flame, searching pass what Logan has accomplished, without text. I seek only for the sight of the world, being an archaeologist that finds every single bit of information that is possibly true. I do not fantasize, I see and connect. That is what I do... that is always what I do. Nothing has changed from that... ever.

Thus, I return, for my mind is brewing... always brewing. I am not here for you. Well, yes, all of you, except for you. But, mainly you.... and you... but not you. Well, maybe you... not sure exactly who you are. But, I guess I do it for you, too.

Yes, yes. The search! Never stopped searching, although stopped writing. Writing for this, usually... but, I never left thought. NEVER! I always enjoyed the world... I just wish I had more say in order to try to save it. But, I digress. The Lore! We need to do the lore!

Ow, the things that I have seen, the things that I have witnessed... what should I start first... should I do why the phantoms are coloured as they are? Should I say why I disagreee with Manus being that of the Pygmy, but rather a similar creature as that of the God of War and Artorias, in their fine line of treasury? Must I say, that I have fell in love with another Dragon, and why? Shall I speak of the forest and Oolacile? Explain my findings that have influenced more of Velka? The information gained from the Great Archtrees? Findings of Clams? Gwyndolin? The Serpents? What shall I choose!?

Hard to say... Can't really say what I want to pick first... but perhaps... perhaps if someone were to ask me a question, I can answer for them. Old or new, I care not. If you know me, you will know that I shall answer with the best of my ability. I do know things... and my assessments of the Lore have stayed the same, yet change. You can ask questions about anything in the world... and I will be happy to reply. For now... I do not plan on making an essay, of post 35... not now. Myabe in the future, or never.

Either way... ask me a question. I shall answer. we can debate if disagree or unsure. Keep asking... and I will answer. Old and New. As Velka was, too.

Come to me, trust me in that I shall answer. Don't be shy... Just remember my old, old saying... everything is untrue, until said otherwise by the maker. Until then... it is all finding research, that can be debated wrong and right. It is speculation... but not bad speculation. The title was granted for a reason, I suppose... it should mean something, no?

Anyways... ask away. You shall now what it truly means to Search for Lore... the Acidic Cook way.

Who is Kalameet, why is he so different from any other dragon we see?

Yukon wrote:Also, can we extrapolate that the dragons were different from each other and unique in the past? All the dragons in the intro seemed to have a pretty common set up, stoney scales, elongated heads with horns, 4 wings etc, with the exception of Seath who was probably not well accepted within the dragon community.

Not exactly. I made a comment here, and a post or two, about how much both Demons and Dragons both have... wait... was that in another? Hold on.
https://soulswiki.forumotion.com/t7270p165-what-is-this#168266

There we go. Yes, connection between Dragon and Demon was also stated here. same Horned Features, same muscular flex, same connection to Archtrees, same hard hides, same almost nakedness yet strands of hair...

The Dragons were no more, the Prequel said. That is true. Have you not noticed, that those Dragons that died were of the same features? Even more so... Gough only notes as the Black Dragon as being the last ancient Dragon. (spoiler, but irrelevant) Not seath included. Not gaping. The Black Dragon... Kalameet

Yet, it seemed to be different... seemingly sharing essence of dark... and its eye, Calamity, was orange and almost looked kinda like an Eye of Death... the Fire was that of the Dark, for sure... the creature is known to cause harm, by bringing calamity and strife to others... maybe it is an ancient dragon, but it is not an everlasting dragon. As it seems to exist without anyone daring to challenge it... perhaps the dragon was of similar problem to another creature, Nito.

Still... Kalameet is near impossible to say as to... well... play the DLC first, then I shall speak.

But I also gave information about the Dragons before... how they may not be of the Everlasting Dragons. They are descendants, yes... but maybe not of blood. Dragon Seath is not of the Stone Dragon, which is the only creature near to that of the Everlasting. It is of pure fire and magic. Same as the Drake Sword, and such Drakes are hunted as sport by Gwyn and the Silver Knights... Seath is not both fire and magic. Instead... it seems that it is... pure magic. Moonlight. The essence of the soul, Moonlight is a rare device, only mostly seen in the use of Gwyndolin, a warlock (ask if needed), and the Butterflies... other than that, Seath is that of the Moonlight. Moonlight, Sunlight...

They see not light, but only endless nights... makes you wonder.

And Gaping is very close to that of the Cobra Men. In every way. How its body spreads, the amount of arms it has, the acid it spews... serpents are said to be an imperfect dragon. well.. the head is that of a python/cobra, and such a creature may have expanded in size... perhaps it was once a Cobra Man, and it grew in size. Remember... you can be a Dragon too... and others such as Logan, and perhaps Mildred too (see Post 34, about two pages back from this) tried to be one as well. Remember that the Gaping Dragon's Tail is similar to Wrath of God... and the Cobras are known to throw lightning. lightning is the weapon of the gods. The force it releases seems similar to Havel/Lloyd magic to me...

The Everlasting Dragons died. The flame died afterwards, as kaathe said. yet, Gwyn lit it again out of fear. But it was not of the dark. After all, Gwyn was known to hold the power of sunlight. Have you ever wondered why the Black Knights hold weapons to kill Chaos Demons? There is a reason... remember that the Witches used Flame Sorceries before... Flame Sorceries that were perhaps tied to the First Flame. Yet it died... and she tried to make a second one. Perhaps she did so, as she lost her power in her flame sorceries? Or perhaps she needed the power of the flame to be strong, or else the magic was little to none. The Chaos Flame is the Bizarro of the First Flame... from them, spawns that look like the Everlasting Dragons spawned. Some, the Tree Demons (stray, asylum, and firesage), have large features towards the archtrees... recognize the amount of tree stems that grow, including their wings? How they have statues in Lost Izalith? How they are the only demon to hold a weapon of trees and flame sorceries (Demon Great Hammer and Obsidian (Demon) Catalyst).

Ask if need more

Yukon wrote:The dragons we meet in the current time have undergone years of ... uh what would it be called? Mutation? I haven't played the DLC.. and I know there is a dragon in that.. so hopefully you can elucidate this without spoilers hehe.

I have a link to my speculation over the Dragon Growth Idea.

https://soulswiki.forumotion.com/t54p30-the-search-for-lore-acidic-cook#6698

I won't speak anything about Kalameet, other than what I said above... the ideas of Gaping and Seath are stated briefly. Very briefly. Can say more, but I have to leave soon for something.

Yukon wrote:I had a few more questions but.. uuhh, I should really be working right now. Cool to see you are still at it though.

Ask away when done.

DoughGuy wrote:Who is Kalameet, why is he so different from any other dragon we see?

Hold on, Doughboy... Spoiler for those who do not know.

Spoiler:

Hey guy that thinks Anastacia is your old wife: You need to play this game for a few more days. Anastacia isn't your wife, she is the keeper of the bonfire, who believes she is evil, and the old townspeople cut out her tongue, and if you revive her after Lautrec kills her, she gets her tongue back and talks to you. A little.

What does "Forgotten" mean?

Is the search still going? I have been reading this thread for the past months, It simply cannot end here!
Oh, and what exactly happened to all those old posts?

I want to reply to Acidic's long post about the dragons and Kalameet. Well, not so much reply as add some more information about Seath I guess lol.

I tend to think that Seath was not originally a dragon, and that's why he's different, and that's part of the reason why he's angry (ENB talks about this in one of his videos).
There's a covenant dedicated to following the dragons and essentially trying to become a dragon yourself. This is evidenced in the second part of the Dragon Torso Stone's description

"The dragon apostles seek transcendence of
life itself, attainable by transformation
into an ancient dragon. This rite is only one
step, but it cannot be reversed until death."

So, obviously the dragon apostles' goal was to achieve immortality by becoming a dragon themselves. As we can see by the dragon covenant in-game, it is at least partly possible to achieve this transformation into a dragon, but the only way to do so is by getting dragon scales.

It has already been established that there were humans at the same time as dragons. I don't think a world as complex as Dark Souls' would have humans come with the fire and just immediately start fighting the dragons. They'd have to have a reason to start fighting. Maybe they couldn't live in the same world, because there just wasn't enough room for them. Who knows? Anyway my point there is that humans existed before the dragons were vanquished, and that's where the dragon apostles' origins come from.

So let's assume that Seath was a human who wanted to become immortal. We know that's what he wants now, because he's been researching the secret to it in his archives. Why did Seath become an imperfect dragon when there were dragon apostles who were becoming perfect? Well, maybe the dragon covenant didn't want him, maybe he didn't want to join, or maybe he couldn't find any scales. In any case, this would have led Seath to experiment with other means of becoming a dragon and achieving immortality.

We know Seath is the father of all sorcery, so let's assume that he tried using sorcery to become a dragon. But the problem with that is that sorcery didn't exist until Seath invented it, right? But you know what did exist? Souls.
What if Seath experimented with different ways to use souls to become immortal? What if he tried to create a container for his soul that would separate it from his body, therefore making his body immortal? What if sorcery and crystals are really the physical manifestation of souls on their own? And what if the reason the crystals cause curse is because the crystals absorb and house part of your existence? I find it all very interesting.

Thoughts?

Knight Loltrec wrote:I want to reply to Acidic's long post about the dragons and Kalameet. Well, not so much reply as add some more information about Seath I guess lol.

I tend to think that Seath was not originally a dragon, and that's why he's different, and that's part of the reason why he's angry (ENB talks about this in one of his videos).
There's a covenant dedicated to following the dragons and essentially trying to become a dragon yourself. This is evidenced in the second part of the Dragon Torso Stone's description

"The dragon apostles seek transcendence of
life itself, attainable by transformation
into an ancient dragon. This rite is only one
step, but it cannot be reversed until death."

So, obviously the dragon apostles' goal was to achieve immortality by becoming a dragon themselves. As we can see by the dragon covenant in-game, it is at least partly possible to achieve this transformation into a dragon, but the only way to do so is by getting dragon scales.

It has already been established that there were humans at the same time as dragons. I don't think a world as complex as Dark Souls' would have humans come with the fire and just immediately start fighting the dragons. They'd have to have a reason to start fighting. Maybe they couldn't live in the same world, because there just wasn't enough room for them. Who knows? Anyway my point there is that humans existed before the dragons were vanquished, and that's where the dragon apostles' origins come from.

So let's assume that Seath was a human who wanted to become immortal. We know that's what he wants now, because he's been researching the secret to it in his archives. Why did Seath become an imperfect dragon when there were dragon apostles who were becoming perfect? Well, maybe the dragon covenant didn't want him, maybe he didn't want to join, or maybe he couldn't find any scales. In any case, this would have led Seath to experiment with other means of becoming a dragon and achieving immortality.

We know Seath is the father of all sorcery, so let's assume that he tried using sorcery to become a dragon. But the problem with that is that sorcery didn't exist until Seath invented it, right? But you know what did exist? Souls.
What if Seath experimented with different ways to use souls to become immortal? What if he tried to create a container for his soul that would separate it from his body, therefore making his body immortal? What if sorcery and crystals are really the physical manifestation of souls on their own? And what if the reason the crystals cause curse is because the crystals absorb and house part of your existence? I find it all very interesting.

Thoughts?

He has a lot of skin for a dracolich...

Is Seath clutching a dragon stone in his hand during the intro cinematic?

I believe so Agyo.

And what the hell this got unstickied?

Agyo wrote:Is Seath clutching a dragon stone in his hand during the intro cinematic?

I think it was a scale.

I guess it was unstickied because of lack of updates?
And deletion of old posts

DoughGuy wrote:I believe so Agyo.

And what the hell this got unstickied?

Im asking myself the same thing....did they give up on the great search?

Well take a look at the first page. Pretty obvious why it got unstickied now.

I guess he went hollow

Just like me finiched the great search......nothing more to live for, so I'm a hollow stalking the arena

WTF!!!!!!!!