Life without the DWGR.

I tried no DWGR on a few builds. I've tried 0 poise too. While fun, they were handicapped builds.

I have a fast rolling 54 poise build with decent defence. So it is possible, but I did find it hard getting armour that also looked good while fitting the poise and being under the weight..

Yeah, I had a fast rolling one too with 77 poise and decent defense. It was still handicapped. I had to put more points into endurance, had to use weaker armor, and still had to use extra ring slots to get there. I liked it, it was fun, but weaker than if I had chose DWGR.

@ fed and dark. Theres no need. If anyone even bothers to look they know damn well what people do or don't like, we don't need more of the same **** cluttering topics.

I got the distinct impression this is supposed to be a hypothetical discussion on how pvp would change without the dwgr, not a "flip tank" bashing session, nor a discussion on possible changes to the dwgr. As such, opinions on the dwgr are inappropriate, especially with the frequency that such discussions devolve into exercises of gross intolerance and judgement.

As far as how PvP would change with no DWGR, we would see even more dex builds and end-gouged builds. Str weapons would become much less common, and would be further handicapped.

Yeah, based on my time with the builder, I'd say 10lbs would be the max weapon weight for competitive builds. Even then, only weapons of that weight with lower requirements would see extensive use. Zweihander mainly, possibly the great club or msgs.

As Amos has shown and I have partially experienced med rolling is viable in pvp. I believe at the start we'd see end gouged builds but as time wore on, like by now, people would realise str weapons can be med rolled with.

Medium roll isn't that bad... end doesn't need to be gouged - you can get 77 poise with a med roll and a weapon combo of WP, Murakumo so 20 weight, I am used to designing builds that use med roll or fast cause I despise the Clown flip ring.

Not if you intend to hit. The r1 for most is worthless, the roll r1s are their strength, and its gone with a mid roll, it takes longer and is far easier to punish. Speaking from experience, with greataxes, great hammers, to a lesser extent ultra great swords, you live and die by the fast roll.

... Tactics... Dex + Str weapon... eg; Zwei and WP. you pull out the zwei and use it to dead angle - it is not really used for much else - you use it as a punishment weapon. backstep attacks - fighting unlocked. It is easy enough.

As I said, ultra great swords, are affected the least. Great axes (excluding bkga,) and great hammers however, have completely useless r1s, and mostly useless r2s. They get rolling attacks, that are slow anyways, with the mid roll they just don't work.

great hammers can also be used - mainly is GA that gets screwed over.

I ve made my build especially to not wear dwgr
I have on my 120 toon 85 end,57 poise and good armor and i do lightroll
Cloranthy ring and rofap. Its a stamina beast

I do PVP without Flip Ring... once I tried, then I stopped; Was for my Shotel and Pike user.

I have better use of rings then to flip; Rolling is better in combat I find than a flip.

^^ Exactly!

Not really, just get roll bsd. Not fast enough to kick stun to hit, narrow hit box, pivots to punish the attempt too slowly so I end up bsd anyways, don't dead angle well, easily parried, easier to poise stab. I stand by it, unless its just parry fishing, greataxes and hammers live and die by the roll attack, which isn't viable with the mid roll.

I'm not saying the dwgr is always necessary, but I am saying the fast roll is for those classes if you intend to win.

im gonna have to disagree with fast rolls beign handicapped, i dont get it is it because it doesnt have a buff? cause in pvp whenever you buff people will just run away or keep dodging and not do anything until it runs out. my most recent and one of my favourite builds is my str build which i love playing with ever since i made it and so versatile, i can fast roll just fine with enough poise to take a hit from a gs, i never have 77 poise cause i think its just a waste of extra armor and id rather have a more powerful weapon since most of the str weapon are very heavy. i have been testing med roll and i gotta say it's not that bad once youo get used to it, its actually pretty good, imo the only weapons that it affects are the great hammers. here's my build http://tinyurl.com/7gveold

Aye, I enjoy the mid roll - I prefer it to flipping.

65 end? How is that not a handicap? Thats 25 extra endurance points.

The problem with the mid roll is that it can't really be used offensively. I've used the greataxes, I really don't see how its even remotely useful if the roll attack is so slow because of the mid roll.

Great swords and smaller, yeah, the mid roll works fine. I never argued that.

I have to agree on that point. The stamina and speed mean you have to be defensive with the med roll.

so you would rather put those 20 points in faith or int to get a buff and have people run away from you? str builds need a lot of end, also youre saying that the greataxes have useless r1's which i also disagree with the DGA r1 has some reach and is faster than the reg GA(i think), if you get hit once youre gonna get stunlocked to death unless you have a lot of poise, i find it really good against guuys that like to flip a lot, i just try to guess then theyre gonna roll and attack and i do the r1 attack as soon as i see them roll which will end up in me hitting them right before they hit me and i always try to keep my back to a wall just in case theyre going for a bs. the only problem i have with med roll is the rolling ground pound takes forever and you will get bs'd specially in the burg where that;s pretty muche veryone does.

Rant, DGA is a great weapon for stunlocking - what I would say is that it is susceptible to stunlock break glitch

all weapons are, some are better than others i know but i almost never stun lock but if you get hit by it youre gonna take about 600 damage if its a counter like tha one i explained.

aye - I love str weapons... I normally run a UGS as a backup to my dex weapons on my 40/40 builds DGM ftw - though I like the Zwei too.

@ dough. My point.

Considering the roll attack of greataxes and great hammers is the primary damage dealer, losing the dwgr would gimp the builds by requiring either little to no armor, or seriously endurance stacking. Rants build is a good example of that, and the msgs is lighter than any great hammer or greataxe is.

(again, excluding the bkga)


@rant, thats them being stupid and/or not knowing how to handle the dga because its rather rare. I could say the same about the large club, but if my opponent knows what they're doing, it doesn't work. This is a skill based game, everything is dangerous in the right hands. Being the exception doesn't disprove the rule.