Speculation Time: Morality System

There is going to be a "morality system", 100% confirmed, this means
that evil players that are unlucky enough, might face a new enemy that
pursues them, this enemy is the number eight.

Okay, so we know that if you're evil, there is a chance that you're going to get a chariot knight at least once in your game.

So, since we have nothing else to go by. Let us do some speculating. What can we expect for being a "good" guy? What more can we expect from being a bad guy? Will we have any motivations for being "consistently" evil other than triggering evil events? How about being "good"? Will this system succeed or fail?

Gut says fail. Morality systems are artificially enforced bull **** in most any game anyways, let alone the moraly ambiguous soul series.

(for example, withholding help because you believe it will better the person isn't considered. You refused to help, so you're evil.)

Where did the quote come from?

I voted 'will work' because they have had two goes at it already, character tendency and sin. I guess this is mostly multi-player and covenant related, to help decide matchmaking, but the 'new enemy' is probably also for single-player. Morality together with a dedicated server could be a good thing if done right, but the p2p system of dks wasn't really up to scratch.

History
Good in the past: Increased damage while helping, more health, gifts from npcs, unlock npcs as summons, less likely to be invaded (way of white).
Bad in the past: Less health, increased damage while invading, additional sidequest, plot twists, more likely to be invaded (darkmoon blades).

If the world ends tomorrow, tell my wife I said "hello."

We already have sin, which was annoying because it was impossible to track and you couldn't really understand its correlation between it and invasion. Threshing it out and making it clear will be much better.

I vote for fail. Nobody can agree on what compromises "evil". But, it might be fun for those "evil" people. They may do evil things to get the invaders to show up. You never know.

But none of those things are really good or bad. They're more light and dark. Thats not morality, the good and bad so far is entirely perspective.

Where did the quote come from?

Chizfreak's stickied thread.

If the world ends tomorrow, tell my wife I said "hello."

Should have left that post for tomorrow. World ends 21st not 20th!

Forum Pirate wrote:But none of those things are really good or bad. They're more light and dark. Thats not morality, the good and bad so far is entirely perspective.

Having taken an ethics class, morality in general is a matter of perspective. In this case we're simply going by what the directors consider good and bad.

And I really don't think not helping a a person gank would be considered evil, how would the game even know? Oh god I hope the rating system from Dark Souls doesn't return :|

Its not supposed to be simple. I don't care what the devs think is good or bad. The ambiguity in the morality in the series isn't imposing judgement without the understanding reasoning. Thats what morality systems do.

Forum Pirate wrote:Its not supposed to be simple. I don't care what the devs think is good or bad. The ambiguity in the morality in the series isn't imposing judgement without the understanding reasoning. Thats what morality systems do.

I didn't mean their real life idea of good and bad, I meant what they conder good or bad action in the game. Without a morality system you can't play a good or bad character, this would just increase the RP perspective of the game. The current sin system already does that.

Is it ambiguous in real life? yes. That doesn't mean the game developers can't define morality as part of their vision for the game.

Morality systems hinder role playing by imposing judgement without understanding. You can be evil without the game saying YOU ARE EVIL, but its hard to be good if the game tells you you're wrong.

The sin is evil as defined by the gods, who are not necessarily good. Its written on the walls (almost literally) that the gods moralities are questionable.

Look at my previous example. That could be the most kind hearted and friendly person in the world, but for refusing help because he believes it better for him to do it themselves is evil? I call bs. Because right and wrong are perspective, morality systems are bs.

Now the person who asked for help being bitter, or even hostile, because you deny them help is reasonable. -1 karma is not.

I really doubt that the game will mark you as evil for not helping someone.

"The sin is evil as defined by the gods, who are not necessarily good."

The morality system may very well work in this way, did you consider that? Maybe it's Velka/some other god judging us this time.

And I always hated the Sin system anyway, I don't see why killing gankers makes me a sinner, that and Gyndolins a lil b!tch(come at me Darkmoons!). But it's a gameplay feature and I've come to accept it.

Morality system would be a failure. Morality is something that should be roleplayed in your head, not measured by the game. Continue giving us the option to kill all NPCs...and making us live with the consequences. As it is, they already eased thing up for us by seeking absolution from that church tower npc. Of course, you could just kill him too hahah.

ComaPrison wrote:Morality system would be a failure. Morality is something that should be roleplayed in your head, not measured by the game. Continue giving us the option to kill all NPCs...and making us live with the consequences. As it is, they already eased thing up for us by seeking absolution from that church tower npc. Of course, you could just kill him too hahah.

Indeed, anyone who laughs that ominously,mockingly deserves to die!

Then it has been incorrecly labled a morality system, because thats not what it is (and I won't discount that possibly) its simply a measurement of what velka thinks of your morality, a judgement by a character rather than the game itself. Thats little different than the "spurned" guy being bitter you didn't help, but any way (short of interracting with velka or someone close to her, maybe an enchanted item like the book of the guilty) that her judgement is conveyed (karma, darkside points, evil points, ect) especially if its in the form of a slider is still an extension of the artificial "morality" systems polarized thinking that limits role playing and discourages thought. Just play "good" or "evil" for the endings.

I still don't know whether the darklord ending is good or bad, and i like that about the game. But I don't think a morality system would be that big of a deal.

And I hate slider morality systems, how I can go from good to bad with only a few actions astounds me(I'm looking at you fallout 3!)

I would like something like Tendancy to come back, never played DeS, but it seemed like a cool idea. Having said that, such Morality/Tendancy should be restricted to online play only, and other than an extra baddy or two coming at me, shouldn't affect my SP experiance.

Most video game morality systems tend to feel annoyingly artificial. As others have said, they tend to feel more like the developer's sense of morality being imposed on you, not that of the actual game itself. Moral ambiguity is much more preferable, especially in a world like that of the Souls games.

Extending and expanding the covenant system is a much more preferable idea. There should be a complex consequence system. The ultimate purpose of morality systems is one thing: realistic and interesting consequences A basic example would be a monster or assassin from one covenant hunting you down for betraying them. Another example would be killing someone from another covenant, and being hunted by NPC and player members of that covenant. Before you just go and kill an NPC, you better make sure that this person has no connection with a powerful covenant that you fear. Or you could do it on purpose to wage war with a particular covenant.

Instead of having absolution, let there be some type of homage that you have to pay to that particular covenant in order to earn their forgiveness. Perhaps some dangerous pilgrimage, or maybe just killing someone from their rival covenant.

Of course its about much more than just who you kill and who you don't kill. You can build rep with certain covenants by helping out player members via coop. Let there be deep progression paths within each covenant, with more items and equipment to earn the higher you rank. Of course betrayal by higher ranked players calls for greater punishments.

Forget a silly and childish morality system, this is much more interesting

MasterofShadows wrote:
Extending and expanding the covenant system is a much more preferable idea. There should be a complex consequence system. The ultimate purpose of morality systems is one thing: realistic and interesting consequences A basic example would be a monster or assassin from one covenant hunting you down for betraying them. Another example would be killing someone from another covenant, and being hunted by NPC and player members of that covenant. Before you just go and kill an NPC, you better make sure that this person has no connection with a powerful covenant that you fear. Or you could do it on purpose to wage war with a particular covenant.

Instead of having absolution, let there be some type of homage that you have to pay to that particular covenant in order to earn their forgiveness. Perhaps some dangerous pilgrimage, or maybe just killing someone from their rival covenant.

Of course its about much more than just who you kill and who you don't kill. You can build rep with certain covenants by helping out player members via coop. Let there be deep progression paths within each covenant, with more items and equipment to earn the higher you rank. Of course betrayal by higher ranked players calls for greater punishments.

Forget a silly and childish morality system, this is much more interesting

This is a far better idea than a morality system! Properly building on the Covenants could add a great deal to the community aspect oF DS, if done properly as above, it could be a really deep, rich gameplay element in itself. It would be another reason to keep creating new builds that are dedicated to specific covenants. The bounty hunter/hunted aspect could be brilliant, loyalty, betrayal. . .vengeance!

really into this idea!

We already have a morality system, though in true souls style you get nothing for being good, and penalties for 'sinning'.

Personally, I don't mind it really, it takes nothing from the game. If the morality system is like the one we have at the moment it's fine, but going into the typical faux-morality that there is in other games would really suck.

Before everyone jumps on the "morality systems suxxx!!!!" bandwagon, we have absolutely no I fra how this one works. Seriously guys, waitin for info will probably change your views on some things.

Anyways I have total faith in From to hit it big with this game. I also think they will do wonders to this morality system. I always felt that sin was never really all that important. I honestly would get a darkroom invasion about twice a week. Wich is nothin compared to the hundreds of DW invasions. This new system wil be better then what we have now it seems like. Deeper progression and more involvement in gameplay is what were looking for.

Great suggestions for bettering the morality system too guys!