The many definitions of "Griefing"

In one of my latest topics, I noticed that everyone defines griefing similarly bot not exactly alike. What's your definition.
The way I see it, it's abusing players with things they have no access to, that you got handed down, or causing a major mistake on their part, half the time irreversible. Examples of this are conning someone into killing an NPC, pulling the levers in the catacombs (people that do that deserve a fiery death), or just blocking their path to the boss somehow.
Now, Many people see gear as an integral part of griefing. I, however, don't. I see dark souls as a game where, yeah sometimes you have to work hard for something, but if you can use it at a certain level without any troubles seeing as you have the stats for it, why shouldn't you? If you worked for it, I say go nuts. The other players have low level gear? Not your problem. you worked hard for it didnt you?
I know I know, it looks like I'm defending myself on my griefing.. but I'm just expressing my point of view. I mean.. Say a kid goes through a bunch of NG+ to get slaps for amazing armor and weapons and is only level 10? Why not allow him to use the fruit of his harvesting to his heart's content?

I see your point. But, in some cases, it is like using an atomic bomb to go deer hunting. We have to draw the line somewhere. That line is fairly blurry. I want to make the most powerful build I can. But, I limit myself to items that are reasonably obtainable at the level I'm invading. That means that skill is more of a deciding factor than a GC with ascended/crown of dusk/BDCR OHK.

Usually I don't have a problem with higher-tier gear being in slightly lower tier areas. The one exception i have to this is the undead burg/ parish. Its one thing to invade someone in the depths or Londo etc, hell it might even get a new play excited thinking " I want to get that strong too". But in the very first areas you are not giving new players a glimpse at what they might obtain, your crushing their love for the game before it even blooms. So ya, go nuts with chaos + 5 weapons or ascended pyromancy in early areas, just don't crush the players that are the future of this game.

It's pointless and boring, better to spend time helping them get past bosses and maybe teach them a few things rather than two shotting them and leaving them non the wiser to anything other than the fact that PvP is broken.

Onion Knight wrote:It's pointless and boring, better to spend time helping them get past bosses and maybe teach them a few things rather than two shotting them and leaving them non the wiser to anything other than the fact that PvP is broken.

I like this..

And I never understood the fun in beating someone in 1-2 hits?

It is a false sense of power and superiority. I won, therefore I'm the bestest!

Lawl. I won't even comment.

Shindori wrote:Why not allow him to use the fruit of his harvesting to his heart's content?

It's like saying that If I become a world heavy weight champion at boxing, that I'm aloud to go punch anyone on the street just because I feel like it. Yeah, I worked for it. That doesn't make it okay though.

And I never understood the fun in beating someone in 1-2 hits?

You can say welcome to Dark Souls?

The problems with griefing is mainly towards players that are new or learning the game, that are human because they need the help. Griefing someone that has beat the game a few times is a mild annoyance, no big deal to them. Lose a humanity, respawn, continue. But to a low level new player, losing all your souls can be a loss of an hour or two of work, and it makes a difficult game just feel unfair and frustrating. Even ifthey had access to all the best gear, not knowing what to do with it or how to make an effective build will get them killed anyways.

If you invade at low level, you get undergeared experienced players, which is just an annoyance to them, undergeared new players (which is where the main problem is) or high level. None of these fights are going to be fun, because at lower SL, you`re generally not invested in VIT and +5 pyromancy with bellowing ring and pixie hat steamrolls just about everything. Its not challenging, but the problem lies when you kill someone having a difficult time already.

lol i love how people here are against beating somonein one or two hits, yet im sure thats what most do. If you say no, you're lying.

Beating a low level player in 1-2 hits is really really easy. There are so many different ways to do it. Not rewarding at all. Requires minimal skill and only a basic knowledge of the game.

Not so with higher SLs. It can still be easy to do, there are just not nearly as many ways to do it.

reim0027 wrote:Beating a low level player in 1-2 hits is really really easy. There are so many different ways to do it. Not rewarding at all. Requires minimal skill and only a basic knowledge of the game.

Not so with higher SLs. It can still be easy to do, there are just not nearly as many ways to do it.

Also, at higher soul levels, there are more ways for your opponent to counter your technique and prevent you from defeating them so quickly. They are less likely to just sit there and let you hit them with something, and more likely to be able to prevent you from effectively using something that they now know is very powerful. Yes, I currently use a glass cannon mage build, but I sunbro with it, so stay off of me.

But for powerful magics, there is more magic resistant gear and the magic barrier and great magic barrier miracles, as well as simple dodging. For a powerful weapon, there is the chance to use gear that is resistant to its damge, as well as more powerful shields, and more dodging/parrying experience.

It isnt the 1 shotting or 2 shotting that is the issue here, it is the level of experience of the players you are likely doing this to, and what they have access to, or realize that they can access. At lower levels this is quite minimal. At higher levels, there is more likelihood that they will be prepared for it, from the perspective of mentality, gear, level, experience, determination, and ability to learn from such an experience.

So, the issue is roflstomping people who have little to no experience and possibly preventing them from being able to truly enjoy the game or adapt to it, which reduces the total player population, which in a way hurts everyone, including you.

Shindori wrote:lol i love how people here are against beating somonein one or two hits, yet im sure thats what most do. If you say no, you're lying.

Wait what. How can you even say that? What have you been watching us all play? have you gone around to everyone's builds and taken note how many people post OHKO builds? I dont even understand how you could arrive at this conclusion.

When it comes to greifing just use the common sense rule. Am I using OP gear? If yes you're greifing, if no you arent.. That probably covers about 90% of possible griefing questions.

DoughGuy wrote:

Shindori wrote:lol i love how people here are against beating somonein one or two hits, yet im sure thats what most do. If you say no, you're lying.

Wait what. How can you even say that? What have you been watching us all play? have you gone around to everyone's builds and taken note how many people post OHKO builds? I dont even understand how you could arrive at this conclusion.

When it comes to greifing just use the common sense rule. Am I using OP gear? If yes you're greifing, if no you arent.. That probably covers about 90% of possible griefing questions.

Actually.. I make mental notes of what everyone posts. Kind of studying, if you will. I pretty much have a profile on everyone's playstyle, in a sort of way. Also, you can tell by the way they direct themselves. I know it sounds kinda creepy but I can tell a lot from a player by the way they direct themselves. XD Yeah, most people here post their builds.. but most are either heavy hitters, aiming to decimate their opponent or just downright play with them, which I think is evil. Hell, most the builds are downright cruel. I mean Shotel? That weapon is just cruel. But buffing it just feels... cheap. And that's just one of many things I've seen here. It's all a matter of perspective though. What I see as evil others might see as even grounds or common.

whats the point of beating low level players with ridiculous OP gear? how can they feel proud about themselves knowing they just defeated a guy that was only enjoying the game, minding his busines?
Its sickening.

Roflstomping questers does bother me to an extent, especially since I rarely seek pvp, just questing and co-op for me.

I switch between pvp and pve and it doesn't bother me getting invaded, even by someone with OP gear, unless I'm cooping with a specific person and it takes forever to summon them / be summoned. Sometimes you spend 10-15 minutes just to someone your friend and getting stomped by someone with OP gear is really annoying at that point. An invader can't really hurt me; at most I lose a humanity.

When I first started playing it was devastating; I didn't get my souls back half the time, I didn't have a clue how to find humanity, my builds were subpar, so that additional difficulty heaped upon it was really annoying. And someone dark handed me a few times as well; fun times.

-I've gotten a lot of hate mail from phantoms I've summoned in the forest.
-They bs the catbro while the catbro is bowing aaaaand *poof* Black Crystal bye bye.
-The catbro leaves me something cool (slabs,chunks,souls,etc) and we start dueling.
-2nd catbro comes in and...guess what...they back off.
-But before its all said and done the phantom usually sends me mail saying something like, "wtf?!?!/my mom is a blank/eff my blank, etcetcetc."
-So by definition...am I griefing gankers????

Shindori wrote:In one of my latest topics, I noticed that everyone defines griefing similarly bot not exactly alike. What's your definition.
The way I see it, it's abusing players with things they have no access to, that you got handed down, or causing a major mistake on their part, half the time irreversible. Examples of this are conning someone into killing an NPC, pulling the levers in the catacombs (people that do that deserve a fiery death), or just blocking their path to the boss somehow.
Now, Many people see gear as an integral part of griefing. I, however, don't. I see dark souls as a game where, yeah sometimes you have to work hard for something, but if you can use it at a certain level without any troubles seeing as you have the stats for it, why shouldn't you? If you worked for it, I say go nuts. The other players have low level gear? Not your problem. you worked hard for it didnt you?
I know I know, it looks like I'm defending myself on my griefing.. but I'm just expressing my point of view. I mean.. Say a kid goes through a bunch of NG+ to get slaps for amazing armor and weapons and is only level 10? Why not allow him to use the fruit of his harvesting to his heart's content?

i dont see a problem with this, its a game and ppl plays and enjoy in different ways

^I see that argument all the time. But guess what everyone who uses it forgets? That the other person is trying to have fun too and griefing ruins that. Every second the griefer spends having fun takes fun away from someone else. Thats not how a game should be played.

I've already said this, but, if you wanna do it, do it. The point of a videogame is that you have fun the way you see fit, even if the way you see fit is ruining new player's own fun with the game, making them lose a hard earned humanity, meh, go ahead and smack 'em. Some people just need to let the sadistic side of their out somewhere xD

Even though that's my opinion about it, I still think that's wrong and you should try avoiding that at least till Sen's, because by then, nearly anything is fair game, and even a new player knows more about the game's mechanics and should still be fine.

I am all for enjoying a game any way you can, as long as you aren't damaging the experience for someone else. Griefing damages the experience for someone else, especially when done to new players.

Past sen's though, anything goes. Just keep the stupid stuff in the forest ok? No offense to catbros, but that place is vicious.

DoughGuy wrote:^I see that argument all the time. But guess what everyone who uses it forgets? That the other person is trying to have fun too and griefing ruins that. Every second the griefer spends having fun takes fun away from someone else. Thats not how a game should be played.

Having been invaded , early on In the game. Losing humanity, souls, getting the bajinga beat outta me. Hmmm did it sour my experience, did it make me wanna quit and play sonic the hedgehog? No, it did not. just made me wanna get better, gave me incentive to learn how to fight the red invaders . This is the real "community" I saw, that i wanted to be a part of, a player base that could persevere , could adapt, could learn to win, even when odds are against them. It is just my opinion, that any new player that "feels" his experience is ruined cause he died, lost huminty, lost souls is not the right fit for this game. They should just go back to those games that tell you when to push what button to perform the kill.

Aznul wrote:I am all for enjoying a game any way you can, as long as you aren't damaging the experience for someone else. Griefing damages the experience for someone else, especially when done to new players.

Past sen's though, anything goes. Just keep the stupid stuff in the forest ok? No offense to catbros, but that place is vicious.

Well, 'Splain this... Why can a person that searches around enough at firelink shrine find 4 red eye orbs? FROM put those there, right at the beginning of the game. Now what if, before I even attempted to figure out what they are for , I continue "searching areas" finding gear, weapons, etc. THEN I use them to kill a new player? What if I just invade, as soon as I can? They are there for a reason. I don't think their intent is to invade a host to give 'em a big fat kiss. Their color significance is obvious ( red=evil), and last I knew this game series is one of the best role-playing games out there. Invading should be done at all levels, weed out the whiners and quitters.