Balance in the souls games?

BLA1NE wrote:Reaper: I think you're misinterpreting what I wrote. I meant player experience and skill, not their character's...

Forgive my wording, I realize now it was slightly misleading. By "multiple hypothetical accounts" I meant multiple players individually going through the progression process, not a single player on multiple in-game characters. The bottom line and ultimate point being that you can't accurately judge balance based only on individual players' accounts. You judge balance based on the entire playerbase simultaneously.

While one player goes Claymore -> Spear -> PGS, another simultaneously goes Longsword -> Katana -> Rapier. The only thing this means is that player 1 ended up on the PGS and player 2 ended up on the Rapier. Balance (or imbalance) is determined by, across all of the Souls playerbase, how many ended up on Rapiers as opposed to the PGS or any other weapon.

You're taking my offhanded example way too literally! Yes, longsword -> katana -> rapier could be another example of progression (although I think we can all agree that katanas are probably the most noob-friendly weapons in Dark Souls). I was in fact implying that most players go through a similar skill progression with regards to weapons, and when you consider all the people that get games simultaneously on launch day, it's plausible that a large majority of the playerbase is undergoing the same progression at the same time. So if everyone uses the claymore at the same time, it isn't necessarily because it's a better weapon, but could be that it's more accessible. And since all these players will progress at roughly the same rate, a large majority of them will eventually have moved on from the claymore to another popular weapon (say: Uchi). Does that mean the Uchi is better? No. Just that the community has more or less simultaneously reached the point where it's moved on from the Claymore.

That's why I brought up the PGS as a specific example (forgive me if I'm being confusing, I realize I was referring to other weapons generally and the PGS specifically, and you can't read my mind, so if you hadn't understood that it's my fault!), because while everyone was fresh at the game, no one was using the PGS. But now if someone uses it, very few people will think he's crazy or that he's using an underpowered weapon. It's a balanced and viable weapon, it just took some maturing in the community to realize it.

This post has nothing to do with game balance, only for me to say that the PGS was the first weapon I used once I got "serious" about PvP. I have evolved since then, but I saw the PGS's greatness from the start.

"Evolved"?? How dare you! The PGS is the epitome of PvP weaponry!

But how long did it take for you to "get serious" about PvP after you'd started playing Dark Souls?

By the way the PGS is a very good example of balanced weapon. Its got great damage and speed, and terrible range to balance it!

I'm a fan of calculated imbalance. It often goes something like "spear>kat>claymore>halberd>spear," with a few weapons or armor sets intentionally standing above the rest. I don't want or expect a shortsword to be a great weapon 98% of the time, but the halberd really should be scary almost all the time, ect. Not that the shortsword can't be useful, but that most of the time a different weapon would be a better option.

Calculated imbalance sounds a lot better than perfect imbalance. Still, you say calculated imbalance, I say balance! Again, balance doesn't mean equal. I agree with your opinion though.

BLA1NE wrote:...Animal: then we disagree. Spears are not unbalanced, I couldn't see how they are. They're relatively weak, and despite their range, they have terrible hit-boxes. They should be easy to side-step, but they're not because of lag, that's all. Other than online hit-tracking, there's nothing that makes spears unbalanced...

Thank you for your opinions. You’re right, we disagree. I will say however, that 49/51 is in its literal sense is imbalanced.

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Something I find very relevant, is the “Canon of Beauty”. It is a concept commonly used in my field and defined by the state’s bylaws in which I reside and practice. I’m legally obligated to follow, understand, and apply (within the best of my ability) these laws at all times in order to keep my license and remain in good standing with the state.

One might find several definitions and mixed literature in regards to this (especially the renaissance era),
but I make the relation in regards to physiognomy, relative to my field of practice.

If one were inclined to research this/these topics, they’d themselves discover only one thing:
“Beauty is not found through the Canon of Beauty itself, but only in the slight variations from it.”

It’s very much an “imperfect balance”. I have to keep this in mind at all times. Otherwise, decedents would wind up looking like mannequins. Who wants that right? The bereaved are already suffering enough. I take pride in knowing my profession and the rules and regulations I'm obligated to follow because of that very reason.

The point is, imperfect balance / unbalanced perfection or even pretty ugly are all terms and phrases that accurately describe the true definition of what we can only consider to be a phenomena.

We don’t know why Cindy Crawford’s mole is hot, it just is. :suspect:

As for the previous statements about spears, well guys, I’d sure like to parry mid shaft.
Maybe not the tip, but they sure have an edge.

I'm not sure the applicable conception of balance and imbalance has been portrayed accurately in this thread.

@ :pirat:
Calculated imbalance lol, you sound like my Resorative Art teacher.

Meh. What a shame. too lazy to read and reply to my own post.

LunarFog wrote:Meh. What a shame. too lazy to read and reply to my own post.

Filthy unmagicals.

myself i find that the weapons have their strengths and weakness that in theory make them balanced then you get people who focus on op'ing their weapons like a mage with dusk crown tcc/manus bellowing but they still have weakness. id say the imbalance is where it needs stay now the bonuses maybe they need to be nerfed and the spears they have a clear advantage especially the parrying range. sorry if this was all said i know i came in late

twilightwarwolf wrote:myself i find that the weapons have their strengths and weakness that in theory make them balanced then you get people who focus on op'ing their weapons like a mage with dusk crown tcc/manus bellowing but they still have weakness. id say the imbalance is where it needs stay now the bonuses maybe they need to be nerfed and the spears they have a clear advantage especially the parrying range. sorry if this was all said i know i came in late

Animaaal Industries @ trademark approves of this message.
*especially the underlined. See 4 posts back.

A truly balanced game is very, very rare. But even balanced games have uneven matchups.

Street Fighter was considered one of the most balanced games of its time, and no matter who you chose you had a decent chance. However, some matches were more favourable than others, and some characters had a better overall chance of winning. Overall, the game was still considered balanced.

Starcraft and starcraft 2 are incredibly balanced games, especially considering the amount of variables involved. However, how long was it in Beta and testing?

Dark souls is not a truly balanced game, and it won't be. There's too many variables in play, there are definitely stronger weapons than others. However, it's in the ballpark of a balanced game, and if it had a huge fanbase with tons of money they could burn to make it balanced, I have no doubt they could.

So no, it's not balanced, but it's not horribly unbalanced either. Silver Knight Spear is better in PvP than mace, but depending on a lot of factors, both are viable (mace stuns like a mofo).

if i might say something very confusing i find that dark souls unbalanced nature makes it balancednow perhaps not perfectly but what game is? the fact that a great mace may hit lik a mofo but is slower than a snail while an uchi is fast but doesnt deal half the dam without bleed dam to me seems like its balanced thus leaving this game to two things 1. experience and 2. personal inclines like me i like the clay and in fact beat the crap outta people with experience but i personally am inclined to the scythe as i love scythes.

BLA1NE wrote:"Evolved"?? How dare you! The PGS is the epitome of PvP weaponry!

But how long did it take for you to "get serious" about PvP after you'd started playing Dark Souls?

By the way the PGS is a very good example of balanced weapon. Its got great damage and speed, and terrible range to balance it!

I bought the game in April of 2012 and played offline for about a month. I then came back in August wanting to PvP, and I decided I wanted to get competitive with it in September.

I still love the PGS; it's my favorite curved sword.

My "evolution" was strange. I went Dual PGS-> Rapier-> Great Scythe-> Katana/Catch Pole