*** GWYN! Maybe he isn't altruistic.

Okay, one of the biggest questions I had while playing Dark Souls is...
WHY THE *** GWYN ATTACKS YOU?
I mean, if you are a Dark-kid, it's understandable. He is trying to prevent you from killing the First Flame, kthxbai.
But, why does he attack Solaire, he is clearly a religious zealot. And his intentions to kindle the Fire is stated even by the creators of the game.

But yeah, what if Gwyn is not trying to prevent you from killing the Fire, but he is actually trying to prevent you from Kindling it?

During the thousands of years he was burning alive, just maybe, he realized how the gods were bad to the world (BoC brought demons to the world; Nito corrupted Death with his necromancy; the Pygmy is indirectly responsible for the creation of the Abyss, and how it spreads around the world like a wild fire). He doesn't want to let the Age of Fire go on.

He is horrified with what his children would do for power (maybe a First Son theory). He lost faith in godhood.







-----------------

EXTRA SIDE THEORY

I remember Kaathe saying the Kiln is Gwyn's prison.
Maybe he did not go to the Kiln willingly. He was forced by his children, and over the following thousand years, his children changed history to make it look like Gwyn did it because he cared.

That would be a good reason for him not wanting you to Kindle the Flame and give power to his children.

Anyone would go mad if they were stuck, alone, for a thousand years; that's not even including the possibility of being on FIRE for that long.

Nito's necromancers seem mainly focused on, well, protecting Nito. He's basically got an unlimited source of soldiers and has been (one of the few) main powers in Lordran for a while. Surely he could have spread out more than that one graveyard by now.

There is also the possibility that Gwyn simply hollowed as time went on. One of the things that you might realize about the design of Gwyn when your fighting him is the fact that he doesn't look like a regular old man, his skin looks like that of a hollow. Let's not forget the lack of an intro and the theme music, the fact that he is automatically aggressive makes it likely that he has lost his sense of reasoning. Also, the theme isn't like the rest of the music in the game probably for the reason that the idea of killing him is a sad one suggesting the idea that we weren't originally supposed to fight him.

Also, it was the Witches of Izalith that helped during the war against the dragons not the BoC, the BoC is nothing more than a corrupted witch of Izalith and it is hated by everyone. The Black Knights that were loyal to Gwyn were sent in to stop the demons, but they failed to kill it.

The Pygmy was apparently easily forgotten so there is also a possibility that Gwyn was one of those that forgot about the existence of the pygmy altogether.

There is debate on whether we are really fighting the same Nito in the beginning. There is also the chance that Pinwheel may in fact be manipulating an already weak Nito.

It could just be a test to see if you are worthy of kindling the flame. but that doesn't really explain the sad music, or why he sounds like a rock when he gets riposted

Gwyn used his soul to light the fire draining all his power and humanity the fire burned his body and his mind was taken all that was left was a hollow shell

Also, regardless of the ending, you're there to kill him. To even see him you have to face his last squad of knights. Who aren't there for a picnic (at least with you). That doesn't even take into account the significant murder spree required to even open the door. You reach him through violence, why would he expect it to stop. Regardless of what serpent you sided with, your choice regarding the flame only comes after he's dead. Maybe he'd walk away if he believed you'd choose a particular path but he has no assurance. Better to deal with the devil you know......

Shkar wrote:Anyone would go mad if they were stuck, alone, for a thousand years; that's not even including the possibility of being on FIRE for that long.

GrinTwist wrote:There is also the possibility that Gwyn simply hollowed as time went on. One of the things that you might realize about the design of Gwyn when your fighting him is the fact that he doesn't look like a regular old man, his skin looks like that of a hollow. Let's not forget the lack of an intro and the theme music, the fact that he is automatically aggressive makes it likely that he has lost his sense of reasoning. Also, the theme isn't like the rest of the music in the game probably for the reason that the idea of killing him is a sad one suggesting the idea that we weren't originally supposed to fight him.

nsane32 wrote:Gwyn used his soul to light the fire draining all his power and humanity the fire burned his body and his mind was taken all that was left was a hollow shell

Well, Christians gotta consider that, since God is all alone, save for a handful few Thrones (the highest ranking Angels - Dark Knights). But I don't actually consider him to be mad. He simply is too busy fighting "Chosen Undeads" all day long. He might have talked to the first few, but after the 95835th one, he couldn't give a *** and simply attacked on sight.

I don't see him as a Hollow, but just with skin burns. lol

Shkar wrote:Nito's necromancers seem mainly focused on, well, protecting Nito. He's basically got an unlimited source of soldiers and has been (one of the few) main powers in Lordran for a while. Surely he could have spread out more than that one graveyard by now.

Nito sounds a lot like a Lich (he is one, I'm sure about that)

And those not aware of general RPG characters - a Lich is a mage so strong that manages to live "forever" through undeath. He probably created Necromancy and was the first of the Dead, because he was the first person to manage to keep "living" after "dying".

The Graveyard look more like a College / Laboratory for the study of Necromancy. I bet Nito moved there after Gwyn's departure, and then tainted the Tomb of the Giants with his Necromancy. He does not respect the dead, he simply want to experiment with them.

And yeah, the gods do take corpses as serious business. Look at Gwyn's Tomb and Artorias's Grave. They are sacred places and respected, like us, in the real world do.

GrinTwist wrote:Also, it was the Witches of Izalith that helped during the war against the dragons not the BoC, the BoC is nothing more than a corrupted witch of Izalith and it is hated by everyone. The Black Knights that were loyal to Gwyn were sent in to stop the demons, but they failed to kill it.

Corrupted by herself. The Witch brought it on herself. So it's not like she is innocent. The BoC is technically the Witch, that's why I simply called her that on my original post.

GrinTwist wrote:The Pygmy was apparently easily forgotten so there is also a possibility that Gwyn was one of those that forgot about the existence of the pygmy altogether.

Kings (and definitely immortal gods) know more about their kingdom and the world than a common person. He has the Regal Archives there for him and his personal mage (Seath). Easily forgotten for the common rabble, but not for Gwyn. Your president know so many secrets about your country that you can even imagine it is possible. That's how the world rolls.

GrinTwist wrote:There is debate on whether we are really fighting the same Nito in the beginning. There is also the chance that Pinwheel may in fact be manipulating an already weak Nito.

It's more like Pinwheel made a pact with Gwyn (or his children) and imprisoned the other Necros and Nito with the help of the Lordvessel.

EarthScraper wrote:It could just be a test to see if you are worthy of kindling the flame. but that doesn't really explain the sad music, or why he sounds like a rock when he gets riposted

MAIN POINT
It could be a test. Ok.
But what if NOBODY is worth it? ANYTHING is better than NOTHING.
Even if the substitute burn for just 10 years, that's 10 more years to find another substitute. Better than simply kill everyone trying to "help" (considering you want to Kindle the Flame).

Follow my line of thought:
If Gwyn fights anyone that tries to go inside the Kiln, he is preventing any chance of the Age of Fire to keep going.

If he kills you = +1 for the Dark Ending - because with noone to substitute him, the Age of Dark will simply begin on its own.
If you kill him = +0.5 for the Light Ending and +0.5 for the Dark Ending - 'cause you might simply leave the Kiln and don't kindle the Flame.

That attitude of his is not helping the Flame at all.

His 'testing' is actually putting the Flame at risk of never finding something else to burn. I don't know if I am being clear, but this is my main point.

skarekrow13 wrote:Also, regardless of the ending, you're there to kill him. To even see him you have to face his last squad of knights. Who aren't there for a picnic (at least with you). That doesn't even take into account the significant murder spree required to even open the door. You reach him through violence, why would he expect it to stop. Regardless of what serpent you sided with, your choice regarding the flame only comes after he's dead. Maybe he'd walk away if he believed you'd choose a particular path but he has no assurance. Better to deal with the devil you know......

See my above answer.
Maybe the Knights aren't there as his personal squad, but more like his wardens. I remember somewhere is written that Gwyn left Anor Londo with just his greatsword. No silver knight (that later became black knights) army. Just him, on his own.

Now that I think about it, Gwyn can likely keep the flame burning indefinitely (albeit at more of a flicker than a roaring flame). He hasn't burned up yet after a thousand years, and Kaathe clearly wants him DEAD. If Gwyn would burn up on his own, Kaathe could just wait and ambush whoever Frampt sends. No, it seems probably to me that Gwyn's essence regenerates fast enough to keep the flame alive, though "dormant".

As for your response that he is "testing" the chosen undead, remember that Gwyn is either unique for each chosen undead's reality, OR we are the first to fight him. The Kiln is still sealed up for us, and Seath, Nito, and the BoC are still alive. Nobody could have gotten in yet to fight him.

Shkar wrote:Now that I think about it, Gwyn can likely keep the flame burning indefinitely (albeit at more of a flicker than a roaring flame). He hasn't burned up yet after a thousand years, and Kaathe clearly wants him DEAD. If Gwyn would burn up on his own, Kaathe could just wait and ambush whoever Frampt sends. No, it seems probably to me that Gwyn's essence regenerates fast enough to keep the flame alive, though "dormant".

Like an ember? (His greatsword)
If that is the case, your theory just saved the Universe from the Dark.
* - *
The Flame will never truly fade away, the world will get *** up, but it'll still "exist" Light.

As for your response that he is "testing" the chosen undead, remember that Gwyn is either unique for each chosen undead's reality, OR we are the first to fight him. The Kiln is still sealed up for us, and Seath, Nito, and the BoC are still alive. Nobody could have gotten in yet to fight him.

Your view is that you are always the first person to reach anywhere? I wonder how that works for a Chaos Servant invading you before you fought Quelaag. Doesn't that make you a "second"? Or a Dorkmoon dude in the Burg.

Orango19 wrote:

Shkar wrote:Now that I think about it, Gwyn can likely keep the flame burning indefinitely (albeit at more of a flicker than a roaring flame). He hasn't burned up yet after a thousand years, and Kaathe clearly wants him DEAD. If Gwyn would burn up on his own, Kaathe could just wait and ambush whoever Frampt sends. No, it seems probably to me that Gwyn's essence regenerates fast enough to keep the flame alive, though "dormant".

Like an ember? (His greatsword)
If that is the case, your theory just saved the Universe from the Dark.
* - *
The Flame will never truly fade away, the world will get *** up, but it'll still "exist" Light.

As for your response that he is "testing" the chosen undead, remember that Gwyn is either unique for each chosen undead's reality, OR we are the first to fight him. The Kiln is still sealed up for us, and Seath, Nito, and the BoC are still alive. Nobody could have gotten in yet to fight him.

Your view is that you are always the first person to reach anywhere? I wonder how that works for a Chaos Servant invading you before you fought Quelaag. Doesn't that make you a "second"? Or a Dorkmoon dude in the Burg.

The other person comes from their reality. It just doesn't work if you think of every player being in the same world. It just doesn't; if the invader has killed Quelaag, Quelaag couldn't be alive in the hosts world.

Everyone just talks about how time is distorted, and alternate worlds, and blah blah blah. Just think of reality like a rope, or a piece of string, and the flame as something holding the rope together. As the flame fades and gets weaker, reality starts to fray, into a bunch of smaller strings, each of which has it's own chosen undead.

Shkar wrote:Everyone just talks about how time is distorted, and alternate worlds, and blah blah blah. Just think of reality like a rope, or a piece of string, and the flame as something holding the rope together. As the flame fades and gets weaker, reality starts to fray, into a bunch of smaller strings, each of which has it's own chosen undead.

We'll need some weed to understand this; but here we go... LOL

I understand that, but I also know that sometimes, two worlds can become one. e.g: Your and Solaire's for most of the story.

I made this (I hope you can understand how I see Time in DkS):

I think the fog gates appearing when an invader appears is simply for gameplay reasons. Setting up the game to go from having on area loaded at a time to two would likely be a massive amount of work. So, they trap you in one area.

With that out of the way, I find it likely that the Dark Souls multiverse can be explained like real life spacetime. Think of it like a pile of stacked up blankets.

Some events that are boss battles would be like black holes. They "weigh down" the blankets in certain points, causing them all to narrow in on that point. This causes effects like your boss needing to be alive to be invade; once you kill it, that source of weight disappears. Same thing with beating the boss: it removes the weight, and the phantom springs back to their world.

So, when the blankets are close together, phantoms can "jump" from blanket to blanket, like falling through it to the one below. They are then in a different version of reality belonging to another chosen undead.

And, actually, this theory also explains why most mobs disappear when killed. We know that the time loop (the course of the game) has to do with you sitting in the asylum and killing Gwyn, which makes it likely that those two events are linked in some way. And, well, we know that the PAST is set, and the hero of that time was Gwyn.

The vast majority of mobs "dissolve" when killed, almost exactly like phantoms do. So, if phantoms dissolve because they weren't actually of that world, but another one, then wouldn't the mobs do the same thing if they were also of a different world? Like, say the main world?

But who would the main world belong to? Obviously, it would have to have enough "weight" on it that all the other realities are fixed for most of that timeline. Like the fraying rope, the main world is the part that isn't frayed. And, well, who was the main player of the past? Who is the single most important character in the game? I'll give you a hint, his death seems to have a heavy effect on time, too the point of looping it back to the point of fraying.

Invasions lock you in an area for gameplay reasons but for lore reasons, I equate time and worlds similar to Shkar. When those frayed pieces touch, they only do so in a small area. Everything has to line up for an invasion, including geography. So while your forest might be merged close enough for them to invade, your Anor Londo is not. My theory anyway

I think From didn't put that much into explaining the multiplayer mechanics. Note that they chalk it up entirely to "...the flow of time is convoluted, and relations shift and obscure." They essentially replace the word magic with time in 'magic. Ain't gotta explain s#!t."

I think they DID put that much time into it and it DOES make sense to cut off areas with Fog Gates because as Skare says they are localized anomalies. As mentioned above, if you view your PC's reality as a rope then an invasion or jolly coop would be more like a knot or a tangle, unable to move further down the rope until the knot/tangle is fixed.

As for being the first to ever encounter anyone...we know this is false. Paladin Leeroy actually made it to Nito. His invasion on the way to the boss encounter can be seen as YOUR world coming into contact with his and he sees you as a threat to his goal. Whether you beat him or not doesn't really matter to him since he fell into your world, if he dies there or beats you he will still end up finding Nito in his time.

Lautrec made it to Gwynyvere (sp?), when you invade his world it's dark meaning he discovered the illusion meaning he killed O&S.

Griggs made it as far as Sen's Fortress, most likely looking to rescue or kill Big Hat Logan.

Iron Tarkus made it to Anor Londo, his world falls into yours at the Iron Golem and you are the reason he manages to make it to AL...though in Tarkus' case, the bigger question is why does he want to get into the Painted World?

It would be easy for FROM to simply say "Well, it's just magic." But I don't think they did, the game makes you think about some pretty advanced metaphysics which people simply can't wrap their heads around because of the dimensional thinking involved. FROM did really well, Miyazaki is a genius.

If Gwyn is considered to be Hollow because he attacks you on sight. So that means Ornstein is also Hollow?


You are a bad boy, Shkar. You got me thinking for almost 2 days straight on how to answer this... But I guess I can throw in a few more incognitos on this soap we are cooking. lol

Shkar wrote:I think the fog gates appearing when an invader appears is simply for gameplay reasons. Setting up the game to go from having on area loaded at a time to two would likely be a massive amount of work. So, they trap you in one area.

Everything in Dark Souls is there for gameplay reasons. Miyazaki stated he works first on the system and the gameplay; and create the lore as he go, giving sense to the gameplay.

Just wanted to point that out. You probably already know that, but people reading this might not.

Shkar wrote:With that out of the way, I find it likely that the Dark Souls multiverse can be explained like real life spacetime. Think of it like a pile of stacked up blankets.

Some events that are boss battles would be like black holes. They "weigh down" the blankets in certain points, causing them all to narrow in on that point. This causes effects like your boss needing to be alive to be invade; once you kill it, that source of weight disappears. Same thing with beating the boss: it removes the weight, and the phantom springs back to their world.

So, when the blankets are close together, phantoms can "jump" from blanket to blanket, like falling through it to the one below. They are then in a different version of reality belonging to another chosen undead.

THIS is simply beautiful. But what if the different realities weren't separate from the beginning; and just begun to shatter into multiple realities after the Flame started to fade?

Hell, even the Flame of Chaos can be responsible for this. That would explain why time and space is "chaotic" in Lordran only.

Shkar wrote:And, actually, this theory also explains why most mobs disappear when killed. We know that the time loop (the course of the game) has to do with you sitting in the asylum and killing Gwyn, which makes it likely that those two events are linked in some way. And, well, we know that the PAST is set, and the hero of that time was Gwyn.

The vast majority of mobs "dissolve" when killed, almost exactly like phantoms do. So, if phantoms dissolve because they weren't actually of that world, but another one, then wouldn't the mobs do the same thing if they were also of a different world? Like, say the main world?

But who would the main world belong to? Obviously, it would have to have enough "weight" on it that all the other realities are fixed for most of that timeline. Like the fraying rope, the main world is the part that isn't frayed. And, well, who was the main player of the past? Who is the single most important character in the game? I'll give you a hint, his death seems to have a heavy effect on time, too the point of looping it back to the point of fraying.

At first I thought this was pure science. But then I realized it is not the vast majority of mobs that disappear. Sadly.

Just the ones that wouldn't make sense to leave a corpse (ghosts) or their dead corpses would bug the game (complicated anatomies).

Spoiler:

I don't think that Gwyn is all that essential, given the world existed before he was born; Life existed before him (he has an Uncle, so Gwyn also have Father and Mother, meaning he isn't a magical being that was born out of nothingness). I believe what holds everything together is the First Flame, the Dark Lord ending doesn't actually kill the Flame entirely; given the Dark Soul is part of it; so it still lives, inside Humanity.

Probably what brought Chaos to Lordran's time and space is really the Flame of Chaos. Its creation is older than the events in Oolacile, given the Sanctuary Guardian description already mentioned demons.

I don't know how to explain it beautifully, but lets say the First Flame was created kinda like a Big Bang; the original "explosion" brought "chaos" (Disparity) to the lawful Universe. Dividing things that once was the same thing.

+1 (Light) -1 (Dark) = 0 (The Mist?) lol Maths

When the Flame of Chaos was created, its explosion brought even more chaos (Disparity) into the world. This time in a smaller radius (Lordran only). Creating demons and distorting the very fabric of time and space.

Sh.it became chaotic, we can't really bring any explanation to chaos. It is simply random. But for gameplay reasons, it is not so random as it should be; otherwise the game wouldn't be playable.

If there was to be created a Third Flame, it would leave Lordran looking like a Salvador Dali painting rofl.

And about the NG+; it is simply a reoccurring theme in Japanese games. eg: Chrono Cross and Trigger. Both games deal with the theme of Time; but the NG+ isn't part of the Lore, just something fun to do after you beat the game.

I won't really respond to the topic of disappearing bodies. Your rebuttal was a good one, and It wasn't exactly some groundbreaking theory I had haha.

However, I stand by Gwyn being the most likely candidate for the owner of a "core" world. The world existed before him, yes, but the same with the chosen undead. Gwyn has also had the most interaction with the flame, and he was the single most influential being in the game. And when you invade another player and kill them, what happens? You get sent back to where you started, with any loot you got. And what happens when you kill Gwyn?

You get sent back. To where you started. With any loot you collected.

alchemydesign wrote:
As for being the first to ever encounter anyone...we know this is false. Paladin Leeroy actually made it to Nito. His invasion on the way to the boss encounter can be seen as YOUR world coming into contact with his and he sees you as a threat to his goal. Whether you beat him or not doesn't really matter to him since he fell into your world, if he dies there or beats you he will still end up finding Nito in his time.

Lautrec made it to Gwynyvere (sp?), when you invade his world it's dark meaning he discovered the illusion meaning he killed O&S.

By this logic, we can't fight Ornstein and Smough. After all, you can invade Lautrec before fighting them, and he has already killed them. Ergo, each world has it's own copy of every being (or drags it from some core world), with the chosen undead being the one variable. Which means that each time you fight Gwyn, you are the only one he could have seen so far, unless someone somehow managed to sneak in in front of you.

So it is like we Invaded Gwyn's world (Lordran) at the beginning of the game? After leaving the Asylum?

Well, talk about lag to be sent back to your world after killing him and going through the Dark Ending. lol
This part of the discussion won't get anywhere, cause it sounds like me trying to prove God doesn't exist and you trying to tell me he does. Both arguments don't really require or actually proves to back them. Because it is MAGIC.

---

Now back to the main topic. Is Gwyn considered a Hollow because of his appearance and aggressiveness? Isn't the Lady of the Darkling as deformed and Ornstein aggressive aswell (being the only Knight to not talk to you)?

Shkar wrote:I won't really respond to the topic of disappearing bodies. Your rebuttal was a good one, and It wasn't exactly some groundbreaking theory I had haha.

However, I stand by Gwyn being the most likely candidate for the owner of a "core" world. The world existed before him, yes, but the same with the chosen undead. Gwyn has also had the most interaction with the flame, and he was the single most influential being in the game. And when you invade another player and kill them, what happens? You get sent back to where you started, with any loot you got. And what happens when you kill Gwyn?

You get sent back. To where you started. With any loot you collected.

alchemydesign wrote:
As for being the first to ever encounter anyone...we know this is false. Paladin Leeroy actually made it to Nito. His invasion on the way to the boss encounter can be seen as YOUR world coming into contact with his and he sees you as a threat to his goal. Whether you beat him or not doesn't really matter to him since he fell into your world, if he dies there or beats you he will still end up finding Nito in his time.

Lautrec made it to Gwynyvere (sp?), when you invade his world it's dark meaning he discovered the illusion meaning he killed O&S.

By this logic, we can't fight Ornstein and Smough. After all, you can invade Lautrec before fighting them, and he has already killed them. Ergo, each world has it's own copy of every being (or drags it from some core world), with the chosen undead being the one variable. Which means that each time you fight Gwyn, you are the only one he could have seen so far, unless someone somehow managed to sneak in in front of you.

Well, not really, every single player playing through the game each take up the mantle of "Chosen Undead" meaning that every separate PC has his own complete reality (timeline) from Asylum to Gwyn.

It's a "many-worlds" application...there is a complete seperate world for each player character, however there are soft break-through points (i.e. invasions, jolly coop) where say, my timeline overlaps their timelines. That is why just because O&S may be dead in Lautrec's world but I can invade him in mine where O&S hasn't been killed simply because that is where our timelines overlap in relation to their dimensional coordinates...if you follow.

This is all just my interpretation that is, so it's not canon or anything.

alchemydesign wrote:

Well, not really, every single player playing through the game each take up the mantle of "Chosen Undead" meaning that every separate PC has his own complete reality (timeline) from Asylum to Gwyn.

It's a "many-worlds" application...there is a complete seperate world for each player character, however there are soft break-through points (i.e. invasions, jolly coop) where say, my timeline overlaps their timelines. That is why just because O&S may be dead in Lautrec's world but I can invade him in mine where O&S hasn't been killed simply because that is where our timelines overlap in relation to their dimensional coordinates...if you follow.

This is all just my interpretation that is, so it's not canon or anything.

I feel like we may be trying to (somewhat) argue the same point. Yes, we all have our own world. Each of which has it's own variances and such based on our own actions. For instance, we all have our own copy of each boss, a which aren't connected to the ones in everyone else's universe.

Which is why we are the first ones Gwyn has seen since he went to link the flame (Unless someone found another way in). The way we go through was clearly sealed, and since my Gwyn is different from yours, you can have killed your Gwyn, but mine is still just sitting in the Kiln and has never even heard of you.

Lol, indeed, we may just be *handshake* well played, sir.

Im enjoying a lot this thread. Keep going!