Modding VS Being a poor sport

Usually it's a bad idea to justify doing something bad by justifying doing something worse, even if it is a metaphorical analogy.

Phoenix Rising wrote:Usually it's a bad idea to justify doing something bad by justifying doing something worse, even if it is a metaphorical analogy.

Eh. This too isn't something I fully agree with. I just used the metaphor because it was the easiest to come up with, and I'm sure I could have winged it to sound a bit better.

Either way, I understand where you are coming from, but at the same time I can't truly think of a reason to farm for items...

Requiring effort and time is part of the game, though. Certainly there can be too great a need for grinding and farming-the extreme end of this is requiring hours or days to get a single item or upgrade. The other extreme on the scale is giving gear and upgrades at a moment's notice without earning and searching for it/them. The souls games has shown a tendency towards the former over the latter.
Acquiring a weapon or upgrade via hacking and modding instead of attaining it regularly, even if that same weapon or upgrade functions identically as someone else's, is still cheating. Acquiring anything in a way that breaks the law, regardless of what it is, is still breaking the law. While you cheated and got the same item as another player, that same player spent the time and other resources to gain it legitimately. Attaining that Uchi by modding, glitching or hacking is cheating and is unfair to anyone who is playing legitimately.

NPCWhiteMage wrote:

WyrmHero wrote:Wait, you had 2000 HP without mom/FAP???? If so you're cheating very bad. I mean what's your stats/SL?? Then you expect for the majority to be nice while invading...never expect honor in invasions.

Save mods allow you to change your stats without altering your SL, so those numbers really don't mean much in this case.

But no, I had 2000 with FAP. I listed what I had equiped. (Max hp in the game with Max VIT + Mom Mask + FAP + Tiny Ring = 2565

VIT 99 = 1900

+35% (Ring of Favor, Mask of the Mother, Tiny Being Ring)

So yeah, My hp technically would have been viable, though at a higher SL (I believe the guy I invaded was around SL65? Not too sure...) So I can see where his anger came from...

Honestly though, I think this has massively changed my mind about how I mod my saves...I don't think I will ever mod my stats again...items are another story as I don't want to spend several hours trying to get a +15 Uchi.

Your HP are not what they should be. You posted your HP are viable at a level higher then what you are at. Also, it's impossible to have 2,000 HP with FaP. http://mmdks.com/1e1b 69 vit would be 1999. 70 vit would be 2010.

Giving yourself a Uchi +15 is debatable, but making your HP not match your vitality is a no no.

Modding to give yourself stuff that exist in the game is like the bb glitch. It was acceptable depending on how you used the stuff, but a few (I'm just hoping it was just a few even though it felt like everyone.) abused the hell out of it.

Modding to raise you HP past your vitality is totally not acceptable.

You can cheat however you want, but please just cheat offline.

Modding allows you to experiment and gain a lot of experience in pvp, that you really haven't earned. You could just roll out character after character trying a variety of different builds, setups and techniques and make adjustments to fine-tune without having to do any of the hard work. It allows you the advantage of having better builds and more experience than you should have compared to the time investment. And it's not available to a vast majority of your competition.

Having a character in mind and making him so you don't have to build him up and farm is not that bad, but I wouldn't argue against someone who said it was still cheating.

And as far as items go, i usually just transfer them from a higher level build. Smaller time investment and you don't have to mod!

As long as you have your stats and items within what is normally obtainable by a legitimate player,it really is none of our business.As with a lot of the other poster's opinions,I dislike cheaters but I'd have no way to know how you got your character and no reason to be suspicious if it is in the normal limits.Frankly,I'd be thankful you didn't give yourself ten million HP like almost half of the players I've fought.

As for divine blessings,I think there are two situations where it isn't so unfair to use them.The first is against one of the many hackers that plague the game.The second is when fighting estus spamming gankers.It isn't really cool to have a lot of DBs,no matter how you get them but I'd never argue with you putting yourself on EVEN ground with all the other players.

Also,if you ever want to make sure your stats are fair,don't change them directly.If you gave yourself a lot of souls,you could simply level up normally from a legit save.At least that way all your stats would match.

Acarnatia wrote:Requiring effort and time is part of the game, though. Certainly there can be too great a need for grinding and farming-the extreme end of this is requiring hours or days to get a single item or upgrade. The other extreme on the scale is giving gear and upgrades at a moment's notice without earning and searching for it/them. The souls games has shown a tendency towards the former over the latter.
Acquiring a weapon or upgrade via hacking and modding instead of attaining it regularly, even if that same weapon or upgrade functions identically as someone else's, is still cheating. Acquiring anything in a way that breaks the law, regardless of what it is, is still breaking the law. While you cheated and got the same item as another player, that same player spent the time and other resources to gain it legitimately. Attaining that Uchi by modding, glitching or hacking is cheating and is unfair to anyone who is playing legitimately.

Again I have to disagree, and maybe its because of how I view games as a whole.

When I play a game, lets take Skyrim for example, the last thing I want to do is make endless amounts of daggers to make my smithing skill higher. The same goes for Dark Souls, why should I have to spend hours obtaining titanite and souls just to get my weapon and armor to a point where pvp is even possible?

Now don't get me wrong. I do understand the merits of NOT modding, as I am very well versed in the ancient are of playing a Devil's Advocate. I just find grinding excessive and ultimatly boring. Games where you have to grind begin to feel like a chore, and Dark Souls is no exception.

Going through a gauntlet to gain a reward it fine, but having to go through the same gauntlet to gain the same rewards to go to another gauntlet to do the same thing isn't game design, its a low-blow tactic from the designers that make the game last longer than it should.

In fact, this is something I hope is overhauled in DkS2. While I like the amount of upgrade paths, the paths themselvs are a bit much and require too much time to follow through. If they were to cut down on the materials required to gain a single upgraded weapon or piece of armor, then my opinion might change, but for now I refuse to grind as I simply do not have the time.

Though this makes me want to start a new thread on a different topic...

NPCWhiteMage wrote:
Though looking at the bows...that could explain how I was 2shot in the forest once by a bow user...

I'm against this for the same 2 reasons I was against the bb glitch.

1) The bb glitch saved you from gameplay, which in turn takes away from possible co-op opportunities for other people.

2) It can be used for low level griefing.

Outside of those 2 reasons, I have zero problems with the bb glitch and modding.

If you dont spend time low level griefing and still spend a decent amount if time co-oping, I really dont understand what the problem would be. Outside of giving yourself uber stats of course lol.

cheating is cheating, trying to justify it by saying you have no time to put more time into the game is a really poor excuse, other people have kids and jobs and still would rather make a build from scratch and after all that grinding that build means so much more to them that you dont even need to make another build, when you make a build that fast it just becomes so disposable because you know you can just make another one right away so you can never really be satisfied with any of them.

Good point Rant. Like you said I have a job and kids and don't have time to make new builds. When I do, I know it will be an investment that will be worth my time in the end. I lost all my builds and had to re-make a few and that still didn't justify modding for me.

I dont think people should be expected to respect their builds.

If someone is a menu junky, thats their prerogative. I never used the bb glitch because I didn't want to. If someone wants to remake builds for hours for the sake of doing it, they have a right to do so.

I would say it takes away from co-oping, and thats one of the only points I'll argue. People can spend hundreds of hours menu-staring, the same way they can play offline if they want.

Saying someone should appreciate their build is, imo, an invalid arguement.

KrazykevS10 wrote:As long as you have your stats and items within what is normally obtainable by a legitimate player,it really is none of our business.As with a lot of the other poster's opinions,I dislike cheaters but I'd have no way to know how you got your character and no reason to be suspicious if it is in the normal limits.Frankly,I'd be thankful you didn't give yourself ten million HP like almost half of the players I've fought.

As for divine blessings,I think there are two situations where it isn't so unfair to use them.The first is against one of the many hackers that plague the game.The second is when fighting estus spamming gankers.It isn't really cool to have a lot of DBs,no matter how you get them but I'd never argue with you putting yourself on EVEN ground with all the other players.

Also,if you ever want to make sure your stats are fair,don't change them directly.If you gave yourself a lot of souls,you could simply level up normally from a legit save.At least that way all your stats would match.

I agree whole heartedly with this post, and I feel I need to add you to my friends on XBL

what I tested last night is making a brand new pyro, and I gave myself the Silver Knight Set and a few other simple weapons (+5 longsword and Sunlight Straight Sword (Base)) and went trough the game with that. (Very very hard as I didn't have the stats to wield anything I added. So while it seems like adding these weapons are great and unbalancing, if you don't have the stats to use them, its like giving a turtle wings. Sure he has them, but that doesn't mean he can fly.

*Has Full time job / school / daughter*

I will have to disagree Rant. But I appreciate the opinion. ^_^

Just becaiise I didn't pour life blood into a build doesn't mean I don't appreciate it; however that is just me. I know how hard it is to make a coherent build, as I had to do so before I knew how to mod. So when I give a character an ascended flame +5 I know exactly what would have gone into making such an item.

Animaaal wrote:I dont think people should be expected to respect their builds.

If someone is a menu junky, thats their prerogative. I never used the bb glitch because I didn't want to. If someone wants to remake builds for hours for the sake of doing it, they have a right to do so.

I would say it takes away from co-oping, and thats one of the only points I'll argue. People can spend hundreds of hours menu-staring, the same way they can play offline if they want.

Saying someone should appreciate their build is, imo, an invalid arguement.

you either sikimmed through my post or didnt get the point. oh well.

This is slightly irrelevant but I want to point out that the situation in question is not modding.Someone called it "soft modding" which I am not arguing with as it is modifying saves.I am just stating that the real modders are the ones who tamper with their console to use trainers so they can have infinite health or stamina.

NPCWhiteMage did not use the same system that lets the people many of us have encountered take no damage when we hit them.Just clearing that up so nobody thinks you are the Devil.

RantFromRant wrote:
you either sikimmed through my post or didnt get the point. oh well.

No, I understood what you were saying, and the following post as well.

Yes cheating is cheating, but that is almost outside the entire premise of your statement.

If people do not need the grind to appreciate their build, thats their right, period.

I agree a nice grind full of co-op, blood, sweat, and tears is more satisfying. However, some might not. Saying someone will never be satisfied with any of their builds because they glitched, while I mostly agree, is an opinion.

Besides, if my statement was completely directed at you, I would have quoted you. Sorry for the confusion.

KrazykevS10 wrote:This is slightly irrelevant but I want to point out that the situation in question is not modding.Someone called it "soft modding" which I am not arguing with as it is modifying saves.I am just stating that the real modders are the ones who tamper with their console to use trainers so they can have infinite health or stamina.

NPCWhiteMage did not use the same system that lets the people many of us have encountered take no damage when we hit them.Just clearing that up so nobody thinks you are the Devil.

Thank you sir. I appreciate that. I can't go into details about what I used to mod and what not, but I can say that even if I used my mod, I can't give my self infinite anything. I can only add and subtract from stats (not above or below normal limits) and add items.

NPCWhiteMage wrote:...why should I have to spend hours obtaining titanite and souls just to get my weapon and armor to a point where pvp is even possible?...

Because everyone else has to. It gives you the luxury to play with different builds and spend more time learning to use a variety of equipment with various builds and gain experience pvp'ing in a great variety of situations. A luxury that other people don't have.

For example: I wanted to try dual wielding. So, instead of taking the time to make a build for dual wielding I might not even use, I did the best I could setup wise with a character I already had. I still had to use titanite and acquire (and forge using more than one blacksmith) the weapons I wanted to use. And I couldn't inflate my HP or stock up on DBs, which means some quick deaths and more time investment for similar experience. Had I modded a character, I would have either been successful straight away with a proper build, been able to get better feed back and adjust or at the very least, figure out it's not for me quickly and be able to move on. I would also probably have more knowledge about how to deal with dual wielders. Not that it's that tough, but there always seems to be subtle nuances that can escape you at first glance.

I gave up on it, but I'm still not certain I couldn't make it work with the right setup. If I could mod, I would probably be able to get a good feel for 4 or 5 different builds in pvp in the time it would take me to prepare one legitimately for pvp.

Hugh_G_Johnson wrote:

NPCWhiteMage wrote:...why should I have to spend hours obtaining titanite and souls just to get my weapon and armor to a point where pvp is even possible?...

Because everyone else has to. It gives you the luxury to play with different builds and spend more time learning to use a variety of equipment with various builds and gain experience pvp'ing in a great variety of situations. A luxury that other people don't have.

For example: I wanted to try dual wielding. So, instead of taking the time to make a build for dual wielding I might not even use, I did the best I could setup wise with a character I already had. I still had to use titanite and acquire (and forge using more than one blacksmith) the weapons I wanted to use. And I couldn't inflate my HP or stock up on DBs, which means some quick deaths and more time investment for similar experience. Had I modded a character, I would have either been successful straight away with a proper build, been able to get better feed back and adjust or at the very least, figure out it's not for me quickly and be able to move on. I would also probably have more knowledge about how to deal with dual wielders. Not that it's that tough, but there always seems to be subtle nuances that can escape you at first glance.

I gave up on it, but I'm still not certain I couldn't make it work with the right setup. If I could mod, I would probably be able to get a good feel for 4 or 5 different builds in pvp in the time it would take me to prepare one legitimately for pvp.

Because everyone else has to is a poor argument IMO, but getting into it would take me way too far off topic at the moment, so allow me to move on.

Your post here makes it sound like changing builds is a common thing, and I mean it makes sense to think that as well. But I'm a stubborn mule, and I know my roles in a game. I'm a support player (Hence White Mage) and I like helping people out. So I sunbro when every chance I get. Overall I think I know what you are trying to say, but still, having to fight tooth and nail for a build that I may end up scraping is a double waste of time. Now not only have I had to grind for this build, I now have to grind for a brand new build...

By that same logic, then it's okay for you to make money illegally because you're caught up in other things. Modding is breaking the rules of the game, just as selling illegal materials, not paying taxes and stealing breaks the rules of society. I understand and agree that video games frequently require far too much grinding and farming and it is often obnoxious rather than beneficial. In the Souls case, it actually fits and is to some measure demanded by the very nature of the game; it's a very in-depth, time-and-thought-demanding game. These games demand more from the people who play them than a few minutes to play competitively. Dark is a rpg game, not a fighting game-it's meant to take a lot of time. Whether or not you are willing to give the amount of time the game asks of you is your responsibility and is not a valid reason to break the workings of the game. Players in sports are not allowed to break the rules because he or she doesn't have enough money to get fitting shoes, and in the same way it's not okay for you to mod, hack or otherwise cheat because you can't or won't give the amount of time necessary to play the game legitimately.

NPCWhiteMage wrote:Overall I think I know what you are trying to say, but still, having to fight tooth and nail for a build that I may end up scraping is a double waste of time. Now not only have I had to grind for this build, I now have to grind for a brand new build...

I'm saying exactly that, it is extremely time consuming... but I'm also saying if you use a modded character for pvp you're fighting people who had to waste a bunch of time to come up with a decent build. That is not fair. On the other hand it's virtually impossible to waste any time using a modded character, because worst case you get combat experience and direct, immediate feed-back on a build's pvp worthiness. All else being equal, you're going to be fighting people with worse builds and less experience if you use modded characters in pvp.

Also, this:

Acarnatia wrote:...Players in sports are not allowed to break the rules because he or she doesn't have enough money to get fitting shoes, and in the same way it's not okay for you to mod, hack or otherwise cheat because you can't or won't give the amount of time necessary to play the game legitimately.

I find it odd as to why people complain about having to "farm" or play through the game multiple times to be able to PvP. I have a sl 120 dex build still on NG that does just fine. As for the title, who is the poor sport? You bowed in Anor Londo, where many people are probably trying to get help with the boss, expecting an honorable fight. You invaded (trespassed into his game) and were charged during your bow. This doesn't make your opponent a poor sport. Also, it doesn't matter if your play reasonably with a modded toon. You modded that character, which already gives you a huge advantage over anyone else, both time wise and gameplay wise. What was your soul level? 2k hp is a lot...I can only hit about 1800 with my sl 120 using mask of the mother. Just my two cents.

First off, this is just a game. Making comparisons to serious real life issues really isn't relevant. Not counting the obvious griefing possibilities, I see a couple sides to this. Practical and moral.

Practical: Objective measure. It is the same end result. So, if I take a shortcut to get to the exact same end, that's all right. This is assuming everything about the build is fair (no 99 divine blessings, modded health, etc).

Moral: Subjective measurer. There is a "moral" way to play this game. You should play it proper and by how it is designed.

The best argument, IMO, for the Moral side is the coop argument. When you make a build from the ground up, you are more likely to summon help, or to offer help to get humanity or souls. If you glitch your toon, this is less likely to happen. Therefore, you are decreasing the online co-op opportunities.