Is dark magic really overpowered, or is how people use it overpowered?

Tolvo has a point. It should scale better (low damage at base Int, and save the high damage for high Int).

Indeed.

Bump of justice, since I updated my post from earlier.

Sorry dude but its not Dark Bead thats op. Its only powerful up close.

Again, you unmagicals have it all wrong, its not our spells...its the items. :idea:

CoD, BDCR, TCC...there are the problems. :x

Dark Bead is a joke at a distance compared to CSS. :roll:

The most op'd casting combo is:

PURSUERS-->CSS WITH COD, BDCR, and whatever the heck else. :idea: :idea: :idea:

Dark Bead Needs 35 intelligence or something, bottom line. And if it never gets it, I'll still say its not game breaking.

If you're gonna make this arguement about something like this then pyro is the most op'd thing in the game. 8)

The items are the only things that make magic viable. A 550 damage GFB is not worth it, neither is an 850 damage CSS.

Not for the investment required, not when a buffed uchi or winged spear can hit 800 damage per hit with just slb.

Animaaal wrote:Sorry dude but its not Dark Bead thats op. Its only powerful up close.

Again, you unmagicals have it all wrong, its not our spells...its the items. :idea:

CoD, BDCR, TCC...there are the problems. :x

Dark Bead is a joke at a distance compared to CSS. :roll:

The most op'd casting combo is:

PURSUERS-->CSS WITH COD, BDCR, and whatever the heck else. :idea: :idea: :idea:

Dark Bead Needs 35 intelligence or something, bottom line. And if it never gets it, I'll still say its not game breaking.

If you're gonna make this arguement about something like this then pyro is the most op'd thing in the game. 8)

Yeah, obviously Dark Bead isn't as powerful as CSS at a distance. But I certainly wouldn't go as far as to call it a joke. In fact, I personally think that it's merely just a different way of being 'effective'. The damage is spread over a wide radius. It's not going to dish out major damage over a huge area, but it will at least cover a large spot while dishing out decent damage.

Why would buffing the spell set it apart? If all spells were to be used at the same Int level, you can compare what's powerful and what's not. Changing how high that level of power is makes no difference (buffs). It's about how all spells compare with each other.

How on Earth would I think that pyromancy is OP? :|

Forum Pirate wrote:
The items are the only things that make magic viable. A 550 damage GFB is not worth it, neither is an 850 damage CSS.

Not for the investment required, not when a buffed uchi or winged spear can hit 800 damage per hit with just slb.

850 damage not viable? :|
I'd say it's how CSS hits that makes it not very viable.

A buffed winged spear with Sunlight Blade at 50 Dex and 50 Faith only gets 757 AR. I'd say the investment in magic is better because it only takes half the stats for that amount of damage. Although, they both have their uses. Since Sunlight Blade offers a major change in DPS, while CSS hits multiple opponents far away with pure magic AR.

A buffed uchigatana at 50 Dex and 50 Faith gets exactly 800 AR though

(These were all with the Canvas Talisman)

Damage=/= AR. Counter and instability damage are both real, and much easier to achieve with melee.

And no, 850 is not worth it, because its so much harder to hit and because a leo ring bss R2 can do almost as much (750), while maintaining better survivability.

http://mmdks.com/1hqv will do 400-500 per hit (buffed) with r1's. The R2s can hit 900+.

http://mmdks.com/1hqs mage. Without boosters, CSS does about 850.

Not only does the first build get more Hp and End, it hits as hard or harder than everything thats not DB, and can try any number of times to hit that 750 unbuffed r2. CSS gets 4 shots, and is incredibly innaccurate.

So, again, no. Not worth the investment if its not a kamehameha style beam of ultimate destruction.

Forum Pirate wrote:The items are the only things that make magic viable. A 550 damage GFB is not worth it, neither is an 850 damage CSS.

Not for the investment required, not when a buffed uchi or winged spear can hit 800 damage per hit with just slb.

I wouldn’t say that at all. Why would you need more 550 damage from a combustion spell if you get 8?

I don’t use the CoD, TCC, or the BDCR and I do just fine. My weapons are my spells, without enhancers they do just fine…granted I might have to hit a bonfire before every duel, but they do fine none-the-less.

Its all about timing and combos. Besides I could always spam if I wanted...which I only do maybe 1 in 100 fights if that.

jaythibodeau wrote:
Yeah, obviously Dark Bead isn't as powerful as CSS at a distance. But I certainly wouldn't go as far as to call it a joke. In fact, I personally think that it's merely just a different way of being 'effective'. The damage is spread over a wide radius. It's not going to dish out major damage over a huge area, but it will at least cover a large spot while dishing out decent damage.

Why would buffing the spell set it apart? If all spells were to be used at the same Int level, you can compare what's powerful and what's not. Changing how high that level of power is makes no difference (buffs). It's about how all spells compare with each other.

How on Earth would I think that pyromancy is OP? :|

Dark Bead at a distance is a joke for me. I have 18 and use them like arrows. Sometimes the damage is so low, I feel like I should be throwing knives instead. The only time I use them up close is when the opponent is obviously horrible, or I’m going for style points with a parry-->dark bead.

Pyro is the biggest joke in the game. I wasn’t talking about you necessarily. I was making a relation to your damage vs investment.
You can have a vitality build, upgrade your pyro, use CoD, BDCR, and a couple other fancy tricks and your Damage is in the thousands. There’s a streamer here talking massive %$#@ about it recently.
So all that damage from 9 intelligence and 10 faith??? That’s why it trumps anything for being op. That is IF people are going to start calling things op.

It’s the items man.

Great fire ball. Unboosted, it does 550 damage, and you get 4, and it takes like a second and a half to cast, and its difficult to hit with, even against mediocre players. For 800, its ok, but unboosted all 4 would have to hit to kill a build with 1800 hp (such builds are not uncommon)

GC is one of the few spells thats fine unboosted. Its quick, if short range, and hits for 400 a cast. (600 with the bdcr/cod)

Even at max power (rtsr active, bdcr, pw active, cod) the only pyromancys breaking 2 k are GFB, GCFB, CFW and the tempest spells, all of which are difficult to hit with at best, and in such a state nearly any build can kill you in 1 hit. Typical glass cannon really, can do the same thing with the large club. slap CMW on it and land roll r1's for 2100+.

Forum Pirate wrote:Damage=/= AR. Counter and instability damage are both real, and much easier to achieve with melee.

And no, 850 is not worth it, because its so much harder to hit and because a leo ring bss R2 can do almost as much (750), while maintaining better survivability. Not to mention I can block and parry the BSS's attacks.

http://mmdks.com/1hqv will do 400-500 per hit (buffed) with r1's. The R2s can hit 900+.

http://mmdks.com/1hqs mage. Without boosters, CSS does about 850.

Not only does the first build get more Hp and End, it hits as hard or harder than everything thats not DB, and can try any number of times to hit that 750 unbuffed r2. CSS gets 4 shots, and is incredibly innaccurate.

So, again, no. Not worth the investment if its not a kamehameha style beam of ultimate destruction.

I'm well aware that damage=/= AR. You said the word damage, yet it took that much stat investment for 800 AR. And if my knowledge doesn't fail me, Damage is usually lower than the AR on a normal hit.

While counter damage might be easier to achieve with melee (and has a special bonus because of the Leo Ring) I disagree that instability is easier to land. You said that you've been hit by CSS at least 12 times, did you ever try blocking it one of those times? Most magic takes out a major chunk of stamina (while, yet again, going through shields).

Yes, that's essentially the problem with magic. The fact that it's hard to land.

But, your build examples make no sense. Why are you comparing a BSS Leo Ring R2 to a CSS without Bellowing or some sort of damage increasing buff? Also, how does it maintain more survivability? If anything, since CSS is ranged, you're safer. Not to mention both attacks leave you equally open.

Here's my mage build example:
http://mmdks.com/1hra

That build has more stamina and hp than your BSS build while dishing out more damage.

Incredibly inaccurate? I wouldn't say that. They both go in a straight line. It's that they're hard to land because people roll through them (more than half of the attacks I roll through in PvP are melee attacks).

If having 4 shots is a problem, you can either get more attunement or equip the Dusk Crown Ring. Magic is limited by 'uses' because of how much more effective it is than to go into melee. Since melee can get a whole lot more complicated, while putting you within danger.

I'd say they're even. Both are good in different situations I suppose.

Animaaal wrote:
Dark Bead at a distance is a joke for me. I have 18 and use them like arrows. Sometimes the damage is so low, I feel like I should be throwing knives instead. The only time I use them up close is when the opponent is obviously horrible, or I’m going for style points with a parry-->dark bead.

Pyro is the biggest joke in the game. I wasn’t talking about you necessarily. I was making a relation to your damage vs investment.
You can have a vitality build, upgrade your pyro, use CoD, BDCR, and a couple other fancy tricks and your Damage is in the thousands. There’s a streamer here talking massive %$#@ about it recently.
So all that damage from 9 intelligence and 10 faith??? That’s why it trumps anything for being op. That is IF people are going to start calling things op.

It’s the items man.

The damage at a distance isn't supposed to be phenomenal, it's that it covers a large radius with that damage. Also, how far away are you usually?

One thing that I dislike about pyromancy, is that it's open to all classes. However, it's damage, range and speed isn't on par with the sorceries.

jaythibodeau wrote:I'd say it's how CSS hits that makes it not very viable.

In fighting games they call it an overhead when it hits from over your head. In Dark Souls they call it an overhead when it flies over your head.

jaythibodeau wrote:
The damage at a distance isn't supposed to be phenomenal, it's that it covers a large radius with that damage. Also, how far away are you usually?

One thing that I dislike about pyromancy, is that it's open to all classes. However, it's damage, range and speed isn't on par with the sorceries.

I know the damage at a distance isnt suppose to be great, thats my point, its not.
But you're right it spreads nice, REAL nice lol.
Its an advantageous spell to say the least. Just not op'd in concerns of damage without the CoD BDCR and TCC.

And lol, far dude. I make noooo secrets about my magic. I lock off attempt a lot of times.

---

I love that pyromancy is open to all classes. I miss the Talisman of Beasts from Demon's Souls horribly.
It just shouldn't scale with the CoD and BDCR.

As far as damage pyro has PW...just sayin. And speed? No dude, combustions have been the crutch since release lol.

Pyro is also extremely utilitarian. I love it for that the most.

Its the items imo still.

Because if magic is unboosted, nothing is stopping boosted melee from (easily) out damaging you. That was my point. Why bother with ranged magic at all if it does comparable damage to melee weapons?

They are both a straight line, but CSS doesn't hit up close (it goes over the opponent) and simply walking sideways won't work to dodge a bss R2. It can even be aimed unlocked to catch people exiting rolls.

To use another example, the large club roll r1 deals 600+ regular damage. CMW puts it at 800+ DMB/SLB can break 1k, and it deadangles, is AoE, and always stuns when it hits.

Again, why would I bother with 850 for CSS if a melee weapon is outdamaging me, while having more HP and likely better armor?

The boost is what makes the damage high enough to compensate for the limited uses, low accuracy and high investment.

So? Thats a constant HP drain to get decent damage from the already slow, weak spell class.

DB isn't OP in terms of damage. It either is or isn't OP (its not.) So long as you don't run face first into it like a freaking tard it will never Ohko.

I already explained that GC is the exception to the rule. GC is a fantastic spell, boosted or not. That doesn't invalidate my entire argument.

I also explained that the only time pyromancy comes anywhere near the damage of sorcery is in tempest, GCFW (have fun landing that) or in glass cannon form that includes active PW, in keeping with its much lower investment.

That said the risk involved in casting any pyromancy except combustion class spells is extremely high, a bs or counter hit will easily out damage even a successful cast, meaning that (excluding combustion class spells) the damage is not worth the risk involved, necessitating the boosting equipment to make it so. PW only adds to that risk. 1 armor of thorns roll and they can just kite you to death, essentialy risk free.

Forum Pirate wrote:Because if magic is unboosted, nothing is stopping boosted melee from (easily) out damaging you. That was my point. Why bother with ranged magic at all if it does comparable damage to melee weapons?

Because its fun. And ranged…? It makes melee press, thereby working to a good casters advantage. Using combustions, DB, force/wog, HCSM, are all things to set tempo. And you need the tempo to make the castings work right. I guess you’re stating your preference of playstyle in question form so I’ll overlook it.

Because I really don’t think you’re saying castings don’t work in pvp.

Again, why would I bother with 850 for CSS if a melee weapon is outdamaging me, while having more HP and likely better armor?

Again, preference. I’m not saying what the most efficient build is, I’m saying its my preference…and I’m good at it, and I don’t need the damage from the CoD, BDCR, and TCC. I prefer to spam 4 or 5 Dark Beads and maybe a Dark Orb at a 100 feet away…like a bow and arrow….and then use combustion/force/wog/HCSM/Firesurge combos in conjunction with the DWGR and a possible knife if im feelin frisky.
Preference.

The boost is what makes the damage high enough to compensate for the limited uses, low accuracy and high investment.


I have 10 attunement slots sometimes. I don’t need the boost, I prefer the quantity…preference.

I’ll just say if someone needs 20 possible castings all having potential damage ranging from 800-900, then they are not doing it right imo.

I hate short fights.

Animaaal wrote:
I know the damage at a distance isnt suppose to be great, thats my point, its not. But you're right it spreads nice, REAL nice lol.
Its an advantageous spell to say the least. Just not op'd in concerns of damage without the CoD BDCR and TCC.

And lol, far dude. I make noooo secrets about my magic. I lock off attempt a lot of times.

---

I love that pyromancy is open to all classes. I miss the Talisman of Beasts from Demon's Souls horribly. It just shouldn't scale with the CoD and BDCR.

As far as damage pyro has PW...just sayin. And speed? No dude, combustions have been the crutch since release lol.

Pyro is also extremely utilitarian. I love it for that the most.

Its the items imo still.

I'm mostly complaining about when all of the beads hit. The damage is incredible.

While Combustion is faster, it comes at a sacrifice. It's range is horrid compared to the range of Dark Bead. Also, it does less damage.

Saturday-Saint wrote:
In fighting games they call it an overhead when it hits from over your head. In Dark Souls they call it an overhead when it flies over your head.

Ehhhh.....ok?
My point is still that CSS is hard to land because it's too straight forward. While it does have that slight curve, anyone and everyone can just move slightly to dodge it at long ranges. CSS doesn't fly over your head every single time. Otherwise, there'd be no one to complain about being hit by it.

Forum Pirate wrote:
Because if magic is unboosted, nothing is stopping boosted melee from (easily) out damaging you. That was my point. Why bother with ranged magic at all if it does comparable damage to melee weapons?

They are both a straight line, but CSS doesn't hit up close (it goes over the opponent) and simply walking sideways won't work to dodge a bss R2. It can even be aimed unlocked to catch people exiting rolls.

To use another example, the large club roll r1 deals 600+ regular damage. CMW puts it at 800+ DMB/SLB can break 1k, and it deadangles, is AoE, and always stuns when it hits.

Again, why would I bother with 850 for CSS if a melee weapon is outdamaging me, while having more HP and likely better armor?

The boost is what makes the damage high enough to compensate for the limited uses, low accuracy and high investment.

That damage doesn't count as being comparable when it has more factors behind it to increase damage. That makes no sense. You're supposed to compare them both at equal 'levels' so to speak.

I don't quite also understand why you argue by bringing situations into the mix. If CSS goes over my opponents head, I can just unlock. Moving sideways? Unlock. Exiting rolls? Greet them with an unlocked CSS. Doing that gets us nowhere.

What's your point about dead angling and AoE? Magic has that too.

As I already said before:

Weapons Advantage
------------
High durability
Backstabs / Ripostes
Can be buffed
Some can be used while blocking
Can stunlock


Spells Advantage
------------
Excellent range
Magic damage (goes through shields)
Has more equipment to increase damage output (sometimes at a cost...)
Generally high speed
A large application of uses (although, a small amount of offensive options.)

Here are my example builds:
http://mmdks.com/1hsm
http://mmdks.com/1hsj

The Great Club build hit 976 AR
Not sure about the Magic one though.
(Although melee might have the higher AR, it has to go through 2 defenses.)

Yet again, I make my point that the builds are near equal.
The mage can pull off pretty good damage. While not being limited by 1 durability (DMB) or 1 minute.
Also, the mage has more hp and endurance.

CSS damage seems fine to me. But it's method of attacking is absurd.

By the way, is there any sort of way to test magic AR without actually making the build? I'd like to see the results for myself. Instead of making assumptions.

However, I'm not getting into arguing about how CSS compares to things. This topic was about Dark magic and if it's OP or not.

Animaaal wrote:
I’ll just say if someone needs 20 possible castings all having potential damage ranging from 800-900, then they are not doing it right imo.

Definitely.

But buffed weapon damage IS comparable to magic damage. have you been hit by a CMW Zwei's rolling R1?

I think the point Pirate is trying to make is "If I can do as much damage as a CSS with the Zwei's rolling R1 while slb is on it, why bother with two casts(read chances) when I could roll R1 like 50 times before my buff comes off"

And because the answer is 'Don't bother with unboosted magic' But with boosted magic (CoD bdcr) the answer is 'Magic only has a few shots but it does more damage than like...anything ever'

That's the trade off, if you TCC bead you got 3 chances to win that fight, 6 if you double attune, otherwise your SOL. Where with a weapon you have infinity chances to deal your damage

You can pressure just as well with avlyn as you can with magic.

You don't seem to be considering that the accuracy of the attack has to be factored in. If CSS was really accurate, 850 damage would be freaking amazing, but its not, so its not.

Ever tried to aim CSS unlocked? Its not feasible in combat. It takes too long and I'm reasonably sure it doesn't track.

You alco continue to cite irrelevant AR figures. I know how much damage a large club roll 2h r1 does. I use it all the time. Through 350 defense, it does 600-650 damage. DMB at 40 faith (through 350 defense) adds 300 damage. Not AR, damage. Thats a 900 + damage hit, and through very high defenses.

Even that isn't factoring that the roll r1s stun long enough to bs the stunned opponent for a minimum of 900 additional damage.

On top of that your example mage has very, very few casts of spells unlikely to hit and so little poise that katana and gold tracer swings will stun it out of casts and every weapon capable of stunlocking will do so in one hit.

@ animal, so your preference is a larger number of casts, requiring even heavier investment than usual in ATT? Fine. But that doesn't make the items OP. thats preference, so not actually relevant to wether or not anything is OP.

I'll be more clear. Mechanically, why bother with magic when buffs and crossbows can do the same amount of damage and control the battlefield just as well. (seriously, avlyn will hit for 1300 boosted by the leo ring) while having more hp and poise?

Jansports wrote:But buffed weapon damage IS comparable to magic damage. have you been hit by a CMW Zwei's rolling R1?

I think the point Pirate is trying to make is "If I can do as much damage as a CSS with the Zwei's rolling R1 while slb is on it, why bother with two casts(read chances) when I could roll R1 like 50 times before my buff comes off"

And because the answer is 'Don't bother with unboosted magic' But with boosted magic (CoD bdcr) the answer is 'Magic only has a few shots but it does more damage than like...anything ever'

That's the trade off, if you TCC bead you got 3 chances to win that fight, 6 if you double attune, otherwise your SOL. Where with a weapon you have infinity chances to deal your damage

exactly. If my magic, due to the limitations and investment necessary, isn't far superior in terms of damage, i'm better off without it, which means an entire class is severely underpowered, unbalancing the game, not balancing it.

Forum Pirate wrote:You can pressure just as well with avlyn as you can with magic.

You don't seem to be considering that the accuracy of the attack has to be factored in. If CSS was really accurate, 850 damage would be freaking amazing, but its not, so its not.

Ever tried to aim CSS unlocked? Its not feasible in combat. It takes too long and I'm reasonably sure it doesn't track.

You alco continue to cite irrelevant AR figures. I know how much damage a large club roll 2h r1 does. I use it all the time. Through 350 defense, it does 600-650 damage. DMB at 40 faith (through 350 defense) adds 300 damage. Not AR, damage. Thats a 900 + damage hit, and through very high defenses.

Even that isn't factoring that the roll r1s stun long enough to bs the stunned opponent for a minimum of 900 additional damage.

On top of that your example mage has very, very few casts of spells unlikely to hit and so little poise that katana and gold tracer swings will stun it out of casts and every weapon capable of stunlocking will do so in one hit.

How am I not factoring in that accuracy matters? I kept mentioning that magic is hard to hit over and over. But people make it sound like it's near impossible to hit with CSS. If that were true, why do plenty of people die from that?(heck, the thing has a major lag hit radius)
CSS hits. But it's just not as often as people would like. Do every single one of your heavy melee weapons hit? Certainly not (or at least, they smash right into a shield).

How are my AR figures irrelevant? You're claiming that melee has a big advantage over magic in terms of damage / AR. I was merely just showing how they compared in terms of that. I'm at least trying to put them into actual numbers that can be used. I'd appreciate it if you recreated your club build on MM to show me this damage you keep talking about.

How often do you even hit your Large Club roll R1s? By the sound of it, it must be extremely often. Not to mention that it's not exactly the fastest attack out there either. It's just not that feasible in combat. My point is, I can say the exact same argument back at you. The clubs may have power, but they lack the same thing CSS does. Speed.

My point of the builds were to show that they were equal. I gave both of them the automatic option for high defense (since that was what you were talking about). Why on Earth would I care about poise? The builds were meant to prove a point. Not be viable (they were wearing the same armor anyways).

It seems like you're ignoring the main point that I made about those builds. Yet again, it's about how the size up to each other. One might be better than the other, but not by an extreme margin.

Casts aren't a problem. I can just change out to different equipment or stats. That argument doesn't even make sense anyways, since DMB has one cast.
I'll say it again. Magic is lacking something (obviously). But it just doesn't need what Dark magic has to offer.

It's a no-duh that melee out-classes magic. That's been stated many times. It's just that magic isn't extremely far behind. For example, those two builds from earlier? They weren't half bad comparatively.

This also ties in with how magic shouldn't be done with cast limits. Since it makes being a mage unreasonable.

Jansports wrote:
But buffed weapon damage IS comparable to magic damage. have you been hit by a CMW Zwei's rolling R1?

I think the point Pirate is trying to make is "If I can do as much damage as a CSS with the Zwei's rolling R1 while slb is on it, why bother with two casts(read chances) when I could roll R1 like 50 times before my buff comes off"

And because the answer is 'Don't bother with unboosted magic' But with boosted magic (CoD bdcr) the answer is 'Magic only has a few shots but it does more damage than like...anything ever'

That's the trade off, if you TCC bead you got 3 chances to win that fight, 6 if you double attune, otherwise your SOL. Where with a weapon you have infinity chances to deal your damage

I've been hit by practically every combination there is. But I'm pretty sure you can't hit anywhere near that many times with a Zweihander / some sort of slow weapon. Half of the time, it's either blocked or rolled though. Sure, the big weapons hit hard. But that's only if you can actually make em hit the enemy.

My point is, is that CSS is a single thing (basically, since you need the catalyst to cast it anyways ). And that that build he made had nothing to buff it. While on the other hand, it compared it to a BSS, which should have been by itself. There's no point in arguing that sort of thing like that. Heck, I could easily compare a Dagger to a Uchi like that if I wanted to.
For instance, A normal Uchi with 40 Dex against another build with 40 Dex that has a Dagger. But the Dagger build has Sunlight Blade.
That totally makes em comparable on equal terms, right?
Nope. Since something was added in for the Dagger.

So, since weapons have an infinite amount of chances to hit. Why should the current magic limit stay? This makes mages unreasonable to be in PvP as you have just proved. Like I said before, magic needs something to help it. But it's most certainly not Dark magic.

Dark magic, and just magic in general, is definitely not overpowered and has its flaws and benefits just like everything else.
Here's something to consider: The main disadvantage to magic is the aiming, which is why pursuers and HCSM are so popular. A novice at magic will probably miss the majority of their shots in pvp, while a novice at melee while at least hit the opponents' shield. If you lock on and use spells of any kind in pvp you're screwed. Even Dark Bead is ridiculously easy to dodge while locked on.

Something has to give magic-users the edge on havel set users.
I can't stand trying to pvp as my Great Swamp Pyromancer and consistently running into a full havel user with a Uchigatana.
But regardless, he usually just WoG's me to death when I try to snap on him anyways.

Vithcommalobsel wrote:Something has to give magic-users the edge on havel set users.
I can't stand trying to pvp as my Great Swamp Pyromancer and consistently running into a full havel user with a Uchigatana.
But regardless, he usually just WoG's me to death when I try to snap on him anyways.

Agreed, I see way more buffed katanas than I do DB spammers, WotG spammers, etc. Personally, the katana is way "cheaper" than dark magic.