class specific advantages

I thought it would have been nice, and help to differentiate with hybrid pvp builds. such as

Thief- faster stamina regain
Sorcerer- +10% magic damage
pyro-same for pyro spells
faith- " " "
etc... etc... etc

just a thought

That would be cool, but I dunno, I have mixed feelings. It's nice to pick a starting class based on what stats are more conducive to final build, and I like the fact that they're so fluid that you can became an ace at anything from any class.

On the other hand, it would be nice if there was some small benefit to the choice. I'm not sure I'd say +10% because that would just encourage the min-maxers. Maybe something useful but not disadvantaging, like +2 casts of any spell that comes with over 20, or starting Pyros R2 does extra damage.

yea i see what you mean, and i like the extra spells rather than 10% too.

Well the classes already have advantages, depending on your skill for a lot of hours.

Warrior has solid armor and can use lots of weapons
Knight has the best armor and best normal shield
Wanderer has some good lightweight armor and a great weapon
Thief has good poison resist armor and a great knife for bleed, fast damage and criticals
Bandit has a insane weapon and can make good use of it thanks to strenght and stamina, also he got the spider shield
Hunter starts off with bow and arrow, fair enough
Sorcerer starts with anti magic gear and 30 deadly casts for the normal enemies
Pyromancer got a quick axe, poison resistant gear and overpowered magic orbs
Cleric has good armor, a smashing club, can heal himself and has a better than standart talisman
Deprived is just pro

I`m happy with that diversity

I have to agree with C7, I like that I don't have to be a theif if I want to make dex build, you can start as anything and you get a mild boost based on that class choice for the first half of the game, but after that its really in your hands. I hate having to think my character through before I even leave the character creation screen. I just start with what I like, and the player is instantly putty in my hands. I don't have to sit and consider percentage boosts based on the beginning class that I won't look anything like within the next 30 levels.

C7081 wrote:Well the classes already have advantages, depending on your skill for a lot of hours.

Warrior has solid armor and can use lots of weapons
Knight has the best armor and best normal shield
Wanderer has some good lightweight armor and a great weapon
Thief has good poison resist armor and a great knife for bleed, fast damage and criticals
Bandit has a insane weapon and can make good use of it thanks to strenght and stamina, also he got the spider shield
Hunter starts off with bow and arrow, fair enough
Sorcerer starts with anti magic gear and 30 deadly casts for the normal enemies
Pyromancer got a quick axe, poison resistant gear and overpowered magic orbs
Cleric has good armor, a smashing club, can heal himself and has a better than standart talisman
Deprived is just pro

I`m happy with that diversity

Agreed unquestionably

these are great advantages early in the game and make complete sense. but after lvl 180 or so everyone starts going for identical hybrid outcomes. having set advantages for each class would help clear up the muddy water a bit later in the game. I knew i wanted to be a rogue style player from the beginning so I stuck on that path. but to each his own.

180 is a bit high for my tastes, most people stop at 100-120, and this leaves room for specilization. 180 points anywhere is going to lead to a hybrid there just arent enough stats to put them in. Beneficial returns from stats stop at 40 usually so.. with 180 you can have about 6 fully maxed out stats

Its kind of redundant to level to 180 since most weapons get their best boosts so early on. I think you are just going to high to see the diversity of builds and you should try a lower level.

i dont take that approach, i have a lot of builds, and i love forums! everyone thinks everyone else is a noob it cracks me up a bit.

I don't think I implied you were a noob. I was just saying that the game is made in a way that after a certain level it's very redundant to place any more stats. You asked for peoples opinions, and that is mine.

that wasn't really directed at you yukon, the direction of where some of these forums end up is kinda funny. Like the telephone game. But I enjoy the higher duels a bit cause fights last a bit longer when everyone has 99 vitality, i've heard the opinion that leveling up all the way is in a sense to make you feel god like. which is completely different from how the game starts. If i get bored then i start another build and see where they end up. a staggered build approach "to say". my level 330 is the grandpa and he has generations of lil lower leveled pargars to look after

Warrior: +5 stability on all shields
Knight: +10% increased effectiveness of defensive miracles (Magic Barrier, heals, VoS, etc)
Cleric: +5% increased damage from miracles
Sorcerer: +10% spell casts
Pyromancer: +1 attunement slot
Thief: +10 critical damage on weapons
Bandit: +15 physical damage on weapons
Deprived: +10 maximum equip load

I think there's more but I don't have access to the game right now. Anyway, interesting idea is interesting

hunter= +10 bow range

I don't know... On the one hand, it would be nice for your starting class to mean something for more than a few hours.

But on the other hand, it'd be highly restrictive. We already have so many people who want the option to be able to change the way they allocated stat points. In comparison, the commitment you make in allocating a stat point is nothing compared to starting class.

So if we already have people upset about 1 point misplaced here or there, imagine their feeling if their starting class locked them in a specific advantage or other. It's one thing misplace a few stat points, but it's another entirely to be stuck with a starting class. Especially considering it's the first thing you pick, so most people's first character could be a total write-off...

why not make the pardoner or some other npc be able to change your starting bonus for an exorbitant fee?

If you could change it, then it wouldn't be a starting class bonus anymore it would just become a bonus. Defeats the purpose.

The trick is to make the bonus something small so as not to affect end-game values much, but noticeable at early game so you feel like you starting as say, a cleric, then you're rewarded for building faith, or a sorcerer is rewarded for building intelligence. A sorcerer having something like +10% spell casts means that the player feels rewarded for choosing spells as their main source of damage when spell casts are relatively scarce, but come late game the most you'll really be getting is something like 6 extra soul arrows, or 1 extra CHSM. Something that min/maxers, who always plan their builds from the start, will still go for, but it's not going to be the reason a person loses a PvP round very often.

I would have loved to have class specific actions. Like Clerics get access to miracles that no one else can get, maybe a better heal, or another offensive spell. Thieves would be able to get higher critical strikes with backstabs with all weapons.

The game may be a little too difficult to have class play a huge role. For someone new to the game, having a malleable character is crucial as you learn your playstyle. Your adaptations are really being made on the fly and in this game proficiency is mastery of your gear and not a result of boosts/perks which we find in other games. You really need the flexibility to switch to a greatsword if you find that weapon is the match for your style. Waiting it out with whatever weapon you currently have will never pay off, because the leveling system will never make the weapon godly enough to compensate for the inability to wield it properly.

I think this game would be awesome if it had more of a class structure. I like to think of it as going from Diablo 1 to Diablo 2. In D1 you could choose any of the classes, but once you chose them they all had everything available to them so it really only defined the sprite and starting stats, and once started you could make that character into anything. In D2 they separated everything, made class specific armors and weapons, class specific spells and every class had its own versions of casters and melee players. It really diversified the game play and builds.

Now, I like how the Souls series does things, but I also think if they went in this direction and did it well it could really allow for more variation in builds while increasing replayability even further.

I think it's best to have the options open to the player. Choose their class and have everything open to them. But this way, they can also only pick gear they think is appropriate for that class. When I did a thief playthrough, I could easily have picked up a Katana and made it any other playthrough. But instead I chose to stick with the Bandit's Knife the whole time (and it was tons of fun!).

By keeping the options open, you can have both. But by isolating people on one path, making the decision for them, I think it would add another unnecessary complication to Dark Souls. You already have so many people who won't stop re-starting for one reason or other with the open structure we have now. Imagine if they were stuck on set gear and skills instead? They'd never get through the game!

And I disagree that it would add more replayability. Like I said, you have the options open to do a playthrough with your own gear restrictions. And this way, not only can you do a "class-specific" playthrough, you can even do hybrids, which adds more replayability. If there'd been set classes, I probably would have done a playythrough with each and be done with it. But with the open structure, I've done over a dozen playthrough, each the way I wanted to, and I could keep doing more.

The knight's desc claims he is harder to knock down, which would be useful throughout the game. Anybody know if that's actually true, or just some sort of editorial comment on his starting equipment or something?

Yeah really interesting idea. I think with the way the game works right now, it's not going to be ideal, but maybe in the next souls game if the framework of the game was built around that change we would be in business.

@Befowler

Yeah, it's about his equipment. None of the classes have any inherent differences beyond their starting stats and gear.

befowler wrote:The knight's desc claims he is harder to knock down, which would be useful throughout the game. Anybody know if that's actually true, or just some sort of editorial comment on his starting equipment or something?

It's all about the poise.