by StiffNipples Sun Jun 23, 2013 7:45 amYep they're OP as sh*t too, and the window is too big, but I thought everyone agreed on that 
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emraluces
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18 posters
Fixing a big problem in the onlie community
StiffNipples- Obsessed
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Dibsville- Abyss Dweller
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Backstabs are completely fine, they were just done horribly wrong.
I would never agree that backstabs are overpowered.
I would never agree that backstabs are overpowered.
SadPanda- Caffeinated
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The only real problem is netcode. Nothing is overpowered unless it's massively min/maxed, modded, or even worse due to the bad netcode. So glad that Dark Souls II won't be P2P...
StiffNipples- Obsessed
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Backstabs are broken, the idea is great, the execution is poor.
The window is about ab 90 degree cone out of the back of players, it's silly big, and the damage they do is far too much considering you can boost it even further with the Hornet Ring.
If the Hornet Ring wasn't in the game the extra crit damage would be fine, but it is in the game, so it should function as adding crit damage to backstabs, not boosting it to one hit kill levels.
The window is about ab 90 degree cone out of the back of players, it's silly big, and the damage they do is far too much considering you can boost it even further with the Hornet Ring.
If the Hornet Ring wasn't in the game the extra crit damage would be fine, but it is in the game, so it should function as adding crit damage to backstabs, not boosting it to one hit kill levels.
Dibsville- Abyss Dweller
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The damage is about how much you would get out of two normal hits.
Like I just said, backstabs are in no way broken, they were simply done horribly wrong. The angle and all that doesn't matter. In fact, there's very little times that the angle ever matters. It's all because of the lag. If there was no lag, backstabs wouldn't be a problem at all.
The Hornet Ring got its needed nerf. It's not even that powerful anymore. Sure 30% may seem like a lot at first, but you have to remember that it takes up a Ring Slot that could be used for another better ring like Wolf Ring, RoFaP, DWGR, etc.
By the way: Extra crit would be even more OP than extra damage.
Like I just said, backstabs are in no way broken, they were simply done horribly wrong. The angle and all that doesn't matter. In fact, there's very little times that the angle ever matters. It's all because of the lag. If there was no lag, backstabs wouldn't be a problem at all.
The Hornet Ring got its needed nerf. It's not even that powerful anymore. Sure 30% may seem like a lot at first, but you have to remember that it takes up a Ring Slot that could be used for another better ring like Wolf Ring, RoFaP, DWGR, etc.
By the way: Extra crit would be even more OP than extra damage.
StiffNipples- Obsessed
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Sorry yeah, meant extra damage not extra crit. It's still an unneeded ring in the game.
Also there is lag, so backstabs are broken. Their concept isn't broken I'll agree with you on that, but as they currently are in the game (with the lag), yeah they're far too easily abused, and with their big damage and ease of exploitation, they're broken.
Also ime the damage is like two hits if they were naked.
Also there is lag, so backstabs are broken. Their concept isn't broken I'll agree with you on that, but as they currently are in the game (with the lag), yeah they're far too easily abused, and with their big damage and ease of exploitation, they're broken.
Also ime the damage is like two hits if they were naked.
Dibsville- Abyss Dweller
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You just said backstabs were OP, now you're agreeing that they were a good idea.
Think about it. Backstabs aren't OP, there are just things that cause them to be considered OP. Lag is one of them.
Getting back on topic, the exact same thing can be said about Dark Magic.
Think about it. Backstabs aren't OP, there are just things that cause them to be considered OP. Lag is one of them.
Getting back on topic, the exact same thing can be said about Dark Magic.
Animaaal- Compulsory Poster
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StiffNipples wrote:............................Backstabs are broken, the idea is great, the execution is poor.
The window is about ab 90 degree cone out of the back of players.......................
Dibsville wrote:The damage is about how much you would get out of two normal hits.
Wrong, just so very incorrect.
Like I just said, backstabs are in no way broken, they most certainly are, they were simply done horribly wrong. The angle and all that doesn't matter. In fact, there's very little times that the angle ever matters. WTF?!?!?! It's all because of the lag. If there was no lag, backstabs wouldn't be a problem at all. Aaaaaaaaaaaand sorry Dibs, but that's the exact reason they are, along with the "hitbox tail". Your own statement contradicts yourself, and also validates the fact that the backstab mechanic is indeed broke.
Backstabs are broke denying it is futile and ignorant imo. You can say it doesn't affect your pvp encounters, but you cannot say they are not lopsided....that's just arguing for the sake of arguing.
Dibsville- Abyss Dweller
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Two normal hits can get backstab type damage depending on your weapon.Animaaal wrote:StiffNipples wrote:............................Backstabs are broken, the idea is great, the execution is poor.
The window is about ab 90 degree cone out of the back of players.......................Dibsville wrote:The damage is about how much you would get out of two normal hits.
Wrong, just so very incorrect.
Like I just said, backstabs are in no way broken, they most certainly are, they were simply done horribly wrong. The angle and all that doesn't matter. In fact, there's very little times that the angle ever matters. WTF?!?!?! It's all because of the lag. If there was no lag, backstabs wouldn't be a problem at all. Aaaaaaaaaaaand sorry Dibs, but that's the exact reason they are, along with the "hitbox tail". Your own statement contradicts yourself, and also validates the fact that the backstab mechanic is indeed broke.
Backstabs are broke denying it is futile and ignorant imo. Youcan say it doesn't affect your pvp encounters, but you cannot say they are lopsided....that's just arguing to argue imo.
Backstabs aren't broken. The lag is broken, which causes backstabs to be baby-accessible. They're used way more often than intended.
Without lag, backstabs would be perfectly fine.
Animaaal- Compulsory Poster
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First off all, please take the time to edit your quotes and not turn this into a quote-spam fest.
thank you,
That’s exactly the point…depending on the weapon…
It can mean a lot more than “twice the damage”.....A LOT MORE.
And again, exactly. It's not only that though, the hitbox and overall mechanics could use an overhaul.
I'm not sure wth this even means. "Used by noobs?!?!"
Yet one more thing to prove they are broke.
Again, they could use some refinement.
Saying lag ruins backstabs and is the ONLY reason they are broken, validates other things mechanically wrong like phantom damage, inappropriate dead angles, etcetcetc.
Saying backstabs are not broke is like saying Dark Souls is child’s play.
thank you,
Dibsville wrote:
...............Two normal hits can get backstab type damage depending on your weapon......
That’s exactly the point…depending on the weapon…
It can mean a lot more than “twice the damage”.....A LOT MORE.
Dibsville wrote:...........Backstabs aren't broken. The lag is broken.........
And again, exactly. It's not only that though, the hitbox and overall mechanics could use an overhaul.
Dibsville wrote:............ which causes backstabs to be baby-accessible.....
I'm not sure wth this even means. "Used by noobs?!?!"
Dibsville wrote:............. They're used way more often than intended.....
Yet one more thing to prove they are broke.
Dibsville wrote:..........Without lag, backstabs would be perfectly fine...........
Again, they could use some refinement.
Saying lag ruins backstabs and is the ONLY reason they are broken, validates other things mechanically wrong like phantom damage, inappropriate dead angles, etcetcetc.
Saying backstabs are not broke is like saying Dark Souls is child’s play.
Dibsville- Abyss Dweller
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I try not to quote people too much due to a long-time request by a certain person, so don't tell me what to do with it.
I'm just going to be straight about this: Lag is the problem. Nothing more, nothing less. Backstabs are fine, Dark Magic is fine, Combustion spamming is fine, etc etc.
If lag wasn't there, nothing would be broken. It's that simple.
And on the part of "baby-accessible", I meant the fact that everyone can use it. I didn't mean it as "Used by noobs", I meant it as if I could say "I can backstab you whenever I want", which due to lag is completely possible and true.
I'm just going to be straight about this: Lag is the problem. Nothing more, nothing less. Backstabs are fine, Dark Magic is fine, Combustion spamming is fine, etc etc.
If lag wasn't there, nothing would be broken. It's that simple.
And on the part of "baby-accessible", I meant the fact that everyone can use it. I didn't mean it as "Used by noobs", I meant it as if I could say "I can backstab you whenever I want", which due to lag is completely possible and true.
Animaaal- Compulsory Poster
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Dibsville wrote:............I try not to quote people too much due to a long-time request by a certain person, so don't tell me what to do with it.....
Fine. You have a habit, just sayin. I said please and thank you. ANY request is acceptable under those terms. NP would've been the appropriate response.
Dibsville wrote:.... Lag is the problem.....
No ***. Aaaand????????
Dibsville wrote:........If lag wasn't there, nothing would be broken. It's that simple.........
You're wishing for the impossible. There will always be lag. I assume you wouldknow that, and can't quite understand why you continue to validate the counter-argument. Its perplexing.
Dibsville wrote:.........And on the part of "baby-accessible", I meant the fact that everyone can use it. I didn't mean it as "Used by noobs", I meant it as if I could say "I can backstab you whenever I want", which due to lag is completely possible and true......
Again, you keep validating the side of the argument that you are trying to argue against. Why are you doing this?
Dibsville- Abyss Dweller
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Sorry, didn't mean to come off rude on the first part.
I'm arguing that backstabs are not broken, and they aren't. How am I validating that they are broken in any way? Because I look at what is causing them to be broken and suddenly that makes them broken? Cause = effect. Backstabs aren't broken until lag is added in. The effect is a broken backstab, the cause is lag. The backstab itself is not broken. I'm looking at it from a perspective of just the idea of backstabs. The idea of it isn't broken, but I agree that what we have currently is in fact broken.
I'm arguing that backstabs are not broken, and they aren't. How am I validating that they are broken in any way? Because I look at what is causing them to be broken and suddenly that makes them broken? Cause = effect. Backstabs aren't broken until lag is added in. The effect is a broken backstab, the cause is lag. The backstab itself is not broken. I'm looking at it from a perspective of just the idea of backstabs. The idea of it isn't broken, but I agree that what we have currently is in fact broken.
StiffNipples- Obsessed
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Dibsville wrote:You just said backstabs were OP, now you're agreeing that they were a good idea.
I'm agreeing that the concept of the backstab is a good idea. A tool for punishment.
This is not how they're used though, they're used for just damage in general. You see so many "then I finally managed to get a backstab on him and win" style posts and vids. It's not being used how it was intended.
Now this is because of a few things.
1 is lag. Another is the huge window, another is the massive damage. Then you can also very easily do wake up damage (another free hit) and also chainstab if you want to as well (yes because of lag).
The thing is though, there will never be a game without lag, so you can't just say "without lag they would be fine", because it's not going to happen.
These things have to be designed with lag in mind, and when you take into account the lag that's present then you end up with a mechanic that's OP.
What's so hard to understand about that. You can't keep saying 'they're not broken the lag is". They are broken because they haven't been properly designed to take into account the lag.
Dibsville- Abyss Dweller
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That's how I look at it. Backstabs aren't broken. The lag is broken. Without lag, backstabs would be perfectly fine.StiffNipples wrote:Dibsville wrote:You just said backstabs were OP, now you're agreeing that they were a good idea.
I'm agreeing that the concept of the backstab is a good idea.
Animaaal- Compulsory Poster
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@Dibs
I understand what you're saying, and agree with it whole-heartedly. The only difference between your outlook and mine, (or maybe stiffnipples....stiffnipples LMAO) is that my conclusion is drawn from the cause and effect....not the cause.
Do I think backstabs make Dark Souls/Demon's Souls unplayable?!?!?!?!......HELL NO.
But you cannot just take lag into account when considering a broken mechanic.
Take Lower Blighttown for instance. Is there slower frame rate processing when playing offline in Lower Blighttown???...yep.
Imo, it's because FROM is excellent at design and conception, but fair to midland at execution.
This is the sole reason I'm happy DkS2 is being treated as a "AAA" title. I hope the real "gaming angels" (the programmers) will shine through and through in DkS2.
Imo, I'm callin it now, DkS2 will be a game for the ages.
PS-Bad programming = crazy inappropriate dead angles no?????
I understand what you're saying, and agree with it whole-heartedly. The only difference between your outlook and mine, (or maybe stiffnipples....stiffnipples LMAO) is that my conclusion is drawn from the cause and effect....not the cause.
Do I think backstabs make Dark Souls/Demon's Souls unplayable?!?!?!?!......HELL NO.
But you cannot just take lag into account when considering a broken mechanic.
Take Lower Blighttown for instance. Is there slower frame rate processing when playing offline in Lower Blighttown???...yep.
Imo, it's because FROM is excellent at design and conception, but fair to midland at execution.
This is the sole reason I'm happy DkS2 is being treated as a "AAA" title. I hope the real "gaming angels" (the programmers) will shine through and through in DkS2.
Imo, I'm callin it now, DkS2 will be a game for the ages.
PS-Bad programming = crazy inappropriate dead angles no?????
Dibsville- Abyss Dweller
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In terms of how it is currently, yes, backstabs are definitely broken as ****, but in terms of "Backstabs", they are completely fine.
On a side note, I honestly don't think DkS2 looks that good... in fact the only thing I've been interested in so far is the Mirror Knight and the swaying armour. The animations and attacks look too chunky, and a lot more I'm not going to go in-depth about.
On a side note, I honestly don't think DkS2 looks that good... in fact the only thing I've been interested in so far is the Mirror Knight and the swaying armour. The animations and attacks look too chunky, and a lot more I'm not going to go in-depth about.
SadPanda- Caffeinated
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Netcode is bad, so it lags. Backstabs were poorly executed, so they're abused.
Sums up everything to the end of the argument.
Sums up everything to the end of the argument.
Dibsville- Abyss Dweller
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Basically.SadPanda wrote:Netcode is bad, so it lags. Backstabs were poorly executed, so they're abused.
Sums up everything to the end of the argument.
Animaaal- Compulsory Poster
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Dibsville wrote:......................In terms of how it is currently, yes, backstabs are definitely broken as ****, but in terms of "Backstabs", they are completely fine.................
See this is where the DkS vet/elite needs to be careful. You and I both know backstabs are crucial to the franchise...but the newbie who just got into pvp and can't figure out for the life of him/her why they keep getting backstabbed, doesn't quite get it yet.
When they read something like this they think, "Sooooo, backstabs aren't ****ed up, I just suck?????" That's the problem. We as a community need to inform them that YES!!!!! OH GOD YES!!!! there is a solution...aka counters. But heed my words newbie...you are not imagining things. Yes that dude DID just jump across the screen and backstab you....it's called lag my friend. L......A.....G......learn it well.
And as far as DkS2, if they mess it up, it's because they drank too much on the job. It's a "buzzword" after all.
Last edited by Animaaal on Sun Jun 23, 2013 9:24 am; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : structure)
Dibsville- Abyss Dweller
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AhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhAnimaaal wrote: It's a "buzzword" after all. :D
Best counter to a BS fisher: Kick them. Counter lag with lag and dead-angle them with it and punish them with your own lagstab.
Gotten so much hate mail from kick --> backstab kills.
Animaaal- Compulsory Poster
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^ Good technique.
An example of what should be shared with the newbs.
Dear Noob,
Learn lag well. I wish you peace and prosperity,
Maaal
An example of what should be shared with the newbs.
Dear Noob,
Learn lag well. I wish you peace and prosperity,
Maaal
Dibsville- Abyss Dweller
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I can't help but laugh every time I dead-angle someone with a kick.
It's also gotten me killed plenty of times because I end up laughing so hard I practically let them kill me.
The disadvantages of messing with people's minds. ;~;
It's also gotten me killed plenty of times because I end up laughing so hard I practically let them kill me.
The disadvantages of messing with people's minds. ;~;
CarverUpqik- Addicted
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short and sweet but i dont even use dark magic even on my max level character with manus catalyst HCSM does more damage than pursuers and is faster and crystal soul spear does more than dark orb/bead combined :/
StiffNipples- Obsessed
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At long range CSS does more than Dark Bead, but up close nothing does more damage than Dark Bead if all the beads hit.
I recently hit a hacker for about 5.8k damage. CSS was doing about half of that (hacker had ~15k HP).
I recently hit a hacker for about 5.8k damage. CSS was doing about half of that (hacker had ~15k HP).
