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    Gender Issues Discussion Thread 2.0

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    Post by Forum Pirate Fri Sep 06, 2013 5:38 pm

    bunnywink wrote:I'm not sure how much longer I will follow this thread, but I wanted to post a few interesting reads I found:

    http://kotaku.com/5868595/nerds-and-male-privilege

    http://kotaku.com/5873885/nerds-and-male-privilege-part-2-deconstructing-the-arguments


    Also, let's play bingo!

    http://geekfeminism.org/2011/11/03/quick-hit-sexism-in-games-bingo/
    all about target audience.

    are rnough games/comics targeted unigender or at women, not in my opinion. that does not make it wrong for a game to be targeted at men who like that sort of thing.

    there are also things lije the overblown skyrim thing, where people forget it is a character in a game that is expressing the opinion. guess what? its a fictional character, not a representation of the companies views. they are not, nor should they be, prevented from creating characters with potentially sexist views because they are "offensive." they would very quickly not be allowed to make any games at all because anyone can find anthing offensive.
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    Post by dancash1808 Sun Sep 08, 2013 9:00 am

    I dunno forum, I find that media is both representative and influencing on the culture it comes from. while I dont get upset with one game, one tv program ect. having a sexist or otherwise unpalatable view when it becomes the norm in any form of media I find it disturbing and I'd imagine its quite upsetting for those it marginalises not to mention it warps the views of those who watch it. 
    While I dont feel that sterotypical characters are bad necessarily. I find too much of it highly counterproductive and uncomfortable  (Okay, an example for me would be the way female characters are portrayed in final fantasy  10-2  is the game that spring to mind. I was actually faintly embarrassed to play these games in front of my dad simply due to the way the characters came off. )
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    Post by hey its andres Sun Sep 08, 2013 1:12 pm

    I don't think the problem is stereotypical characters in general. I mean, most of them are used for satire anyways. The problem is when people can't get it through their thick skulls that the portrayed behavior is not supposed to be encouraged. Take Family Guy for instance.  It has a lot of crude portrayals of all sorts of issues, but most are used as an odd for of satire,  albeit at the tv level. A lot of people find this to be a funny way to highlight social issues. The only problem is that most people think it's funny simply because they think treating people like that is funny. "Hahaha he called that b---- a b----!" 

    By the way, I'm using my phone so please overlook any odd auto corrections and that sort of thing.
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    Post by Forum Pirate Sun Sep 08, 2013 5:33 pm

    dancash1808 wrote:I dunno forum, I find that media is both representative and influencing on the culture it comes from. while I dont get upset with one game, one tv program ect. having a sexist or otherwise unpalatable view when it becomes the norm in any form of media I find it disturbing and I'd imagine its quite upsetting for those it marginalises not to mention it warps the views of those who watch it. 
    While I dont feel that sterotypical characters are bad necessarily. I find too much of it highly counterproductive and uncomfortable  (Okay, an example for me would be the way female characters are portrayed in final fantasy  10-2  is the game that spring to mind. I was actually faintly embarrassed to play these games in front of my dad simply due to the way the characters came off. )
    the issue there is not the characters or how they are porayed, but in the people who allow the media to influience them in a negative manner, and/or the parents who fail to teach their children that such programming isn't real.

    we cannot and should not go around demonising things because of what impact it might have on people. these are real people with the abillity to learn, make choices and think for themselves. teaching them to do so can and should be the focus because the alternative is ultimately a censored, stale media. even if it doesn't get that far, limiting the creativity of artists in media is not something i can encourage.

    for the record, what was wrong with X-2? the cosutumes? again, perception. the characters (well, pain is just an auron ripoff, so rikku and yuna) are both well developed, strong characters. None of the costumes were any worse than you'd see actual people in at a beach in florida.

    again, target aduience is part of the issue. see my last post.





    For the record, this is off topic, so your anon downreps do nothing rep trolls. this is a place for civil discussion, if you believe i'm wrong then i encourage you to attempt to change my mind, rather than acting like 3 year olds and telling me off for an opinion that is logically sound, wether or not you agree with it (and wether or not yours is also logically sound, because it could be)
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    Post by Tolvo Sun Sep 08, 2013 5:45 pm

    I never even get why people use rep in off topic, though I guess it is a way to show your view of someone's opinion without actually lowering or rising a person's rep count.  Maybe better maybe worse than how some use it.

    In any case yes we have gotten very off topic.  Let's try to get back on topic.

    So what do you guys think of the Kojima situation with Metal Gear Solid 5?  It is been abuzz about how he has been tweeting about a female character trying to make her sexy and erotic so people will buy more figures and want to cosplay her.  She wears next to nothing and is a mute sniper though we don't really know much about her aside from that.  Frankly I don't know how to feel about it simply because we don't know enough about what other characters are in game.  Metal Gear is on and off pretty good and pretty bad about the representation of people and while the effect of the marketing, using a woman's body to sell a game and garner interest, Kojima is sort of this strange enigma where it doesn't seem malicious.  There was Eva who was pretty much just eye candy and a call back to James Bond, but in that same game we got the Boss.  One of the greatest heroes in that universe that was sacrificial, and willing to do anything for her country while being one of the toughest and most skilled fighters in the world.  To me it will really depend on what other characters will be in game at the end, because if we do see regular female soldiers and the likes being well represented I don't mind the quiet situation as much though it does come off a bit creepy.  I do feel like I should also mention one of the saddest things for me in regards to Metal Gear has always been The Boss's video game.  Originally Kojima was going to make a game where you played as the Boss doing missions and such during World War 2, she's a character I really enjoy and would love to see more of her.  But after the backlash of Metal Gear Solid 2 and how people reacted to someone that wasn't snake he cancelled the idea completely feeling no one would accept playing as the Boss.  That's always really saddened me.
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    Post by hey its andres Mon Sep 09, 2013 1:03 pm

    I feel like the portrayal of women in video games is too narrow a topic for a gender issues thread. What about women who just want to play games, but can't because of the predominantly, for now, male fanbase? Women get a lot of crap for liking games, which is ironic because most guys complain about the lack of women gamers.

    For example, while at school my girlfriend was playing Animal Crossing on her 3ds and some guy walked up to her and told her she couldn't possibly like video games because she is a girl. When she said that she does like video game he just shrugged it off and said girls don't actually play video games or that they aren't "real" video games. What?! WHAT?! I wish I had been there. I don't understand how he had the nerve to say this while she was playing a 3 F---ING DS! She's a bigger nintendo fan than I am and plays tons of games, but this guy was able to justify walking up to her and tell her she can't actually like what she likes because of some stupid opinion he had been predisposed to. rolling eyes 

    It's amazing that in our "modern society" women, and men, can have their hobbies and interests casted aside simply for not being the typical thing for that gender. 
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    Post by WaffleGuy Mon Sep 09, 2013 1:28 pm

    Time for me to put something in here. 

    It's being mentioned by Forum Pirate that the media is not a representation of real life. Well, that's not entirely true. The problem is that many people begin to actually see it as the real life, and then begin to act accordingly. 
    I've studies behavior sciences for a while now. A thing we all grow up with is rolemodels. This is not always a 'physical' form, like f.e. a father. The media is also a form of a role model. Talking and acting like certain shows probably gets a positive influence. It's a problem if the media then gives a false image of the real life. They set a trend, and people follow it after a while.


    EDIT: I know this isn't explained into detail, but I touched some relative points.
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    Post by Forum Pirate Tue Sep 10, 2013 5:41 am

    WaffleGuy wrote:Time for me to put something in here. 

    It's being mentioned by Forum Pirate that the media is not a representation of real life. Well, that's not entirely true. The problem is that many people begin to actually see it as the real life, and then begin to act accordingly. 
    I've studies behavior sciences for a while now. A thing we all grow up with is rolemodels. This is not always a 'physical' form, like f.e. a father. The media is also a form of a role model. Talking and acting like certain shows probably gets a positive influence. It's a problem if the media then gives a false image of the real life. They set a trend, and people follow it after a while.


    EDIT: I know this isn't explained into detail, but I touched some relative points.
    that does not defeat my point, it helps it. these are people, who are making illogiacal decisions and reaching illogical conclusions based on media.

    thats on them and or their parents, its a case of poor decisions and a lack of critical thinking skills. teaching these skills should be the focus, noe demonising media because something isn't potrayed accurately or it offends someone.

    The only logical conclusion to limiting media based on that is an utter lack of media because someone is offended by/there are inaccuracies based on perception in everything
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    Post by Spurgun Tue Sep 10, 2013 7:47 am

    (I just wanted to but in and point out something that annoyed me. In Forums post 3 people had downvoted him, but i only saw one person who actually replied to his post. 
    Why downvote someone if you're not gonna tell that person why you did that or what you think is wrong with their argument? I don't think that helps a debate in any way.)


    I'm not gonna say what i think, partly because i sometimes find it hard to express myself in english, but also because i'm not exactly sure of what my opinion is on this subject, except for that i think some people are overly sensitive while others are just ignorant.
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    Post by densetsushun Tue Sep 10, 2013 9:07 am

    If anyone here follows Jimquisition, I find that in his latest video Jim Sterling made a very good point on the topic of developers needing the creative freedom to make what they want. Yes, they should have that freedom, and yes, just as publishers shouldn't push them to make content they don't want, we shouldn't demand anything from developers either. But that doesn't exclude us from being able to question certain choices or decision. If a developer chooses to do something(like exclude gender as a choice for protagonists in their games), it's their right to and we can't demand they change that. But we have the right to question why that is, why we can't have what we want.
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    Post by Serious_Much Tue Sep 10, 2013 9:13 am

    I'm going to step in and say downrepping in this thread should be saved for trolling, people have a wide variety of opinions that are constructed based off their experiences, perceptions and whatever else and people need to respect that there are many ways to view the importance of political correctness in media.
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    Post by WaffleGuy Tue Sep 10, 2013 11:20 am

    Forum Pirate wrote:
    WaffleGuy wrote:Time for me to put something in here. 

    It's being mentioned by Forum Pirate that the media is not a representation of real life. Well, that's not entirely true. The problem is that many people begin to actually see it as the real life, and then begin to act accordingly. 
    I've studies behavior sciences for a while now. A thing we all grow up with is rolemodels. This is not always a 'physical' form, like f.e. a father. The media is also a form of a role model. Talking and acting like certain shows probably gets a positive influence. It's a problem if the media then gives a false image of the real life. They set a trend, and people follow it after a while.


    EDIT: I know this isn't explained into detail, but I touched some relative points.
    that does not defeat my point, it helps it. these are people, who are making illogiacal decisions and reaching illogical conclusions based on media.

    thats on them and or their parents, its a case of poor decisions and a lack of critical thinking skills. teaching these skills should be the focus, noe demonising media because something isn't potrayed accurately or it offends someone.

    The only logical conclusion to limiting media based on that is an utter lack of media because someone is offended by/there are inaccuracies based on perception in everything
    In a way, it does both, Forum. 
    These are indeed people getting a wrong view of the real world based on media. My point was that this has been going on for so long, and it affects so many people at once. Sure, there are people who know what's going on in the real world, and that the media portrays a limited view.

    But this is the problem: many people now actually grow up using the media. It's going to have an effect, not only when we are adults, but even when we're kids. It's hard to grow up knowing how everything works, then suddenly try to avert your image of the world, because another person it's not true. Once you have an idea of something, or rather BELIEF of how things work, it's hard to change your ways of thinking. 
    F.e.: You've watched the news so many times, and all you see is people with piercings and tattoos go to prison, get busted for murder, etc. 
    Once you see a person looking like that, you can't help but feeling a bit uneasy, or you won't drop your guard around them. 
    (The example is to give a better understanding, I don't want the issue to resolve around this example).
    Do you get what I'm saying?
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    Post by hey its andres Tue Sep 10, 2013 1:11 pm

    The forums certainly have been charged lately!

    Forum, I don't disagree with you. People can be so silly in their ways of acquiring behavioral traits. This is not a "society is going downhill" thing as this has been going on for thousands of years, and quite frankly is probably no worse now, if not better.

    The dilemma that we currently face in this discussion is one of derailment. This has slowly gone from a discussion about the portrayal of women in video games, which is a small sliver of the entire gender issues topic, to a debate over whether or not developers are responsible for their material.

    Can we please get back on topic?
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    Post by Forum Pirate Tue Sep 10, 2013 7:08 pm

    WaffleGuy wrote:
    Forum Pirate wrote:
    WaffleGuy wrote:Time for me to put something in here. 

    It's being mentioned by Forum Pirate that the media is not a representation of real life. Well, that's not entirely true. The problem is that many people begin to actually see it as the real life, and then begin to act accordingly. 
    I've studies behavior sciences for a while now. A thing we all grow up with is rolemodels. This is not always a 'physical' form, like f.e. a father. The media is also a form of a role model. Talking and acting like certain shows probably gets a positive influence. It's a problem if the media then gives a false image of the real life. They set a trend, and people follow it after a while.


    EDIT: I know this isn't explained into detail, but I touched some relative points.
    that does not defeat my point, it helps it. these are people, who are making illogiacal decisions and reaching illogical conclusions based on media.

    thats on them and or their parents, its a case of poor decisions and a lack of critical thinking skills. teaching these skills should be the focus, noe demonising media because something isn't potrayed accurately or it offends someone.

    The only logical conclusion to limiting media based on that is an utter lack of media because someone is offended by/there are inaccuracies based on perception in everything
    In a way, it does both, Forum. 
    These are indeed people getting a wrong view of the real world based on media. My point was that this has been going on for so long, and it affects so many people at once. Sure, there are people who know what's going on in the real world, and that the media portrays a limited view.

    But this is the problem: many people now actually grow up using the media. It's going to have an effect, not only when we are adults, but even when we're kids. It's hard to grow up knowing how everything works, then suddenly try to avert your image of the world, because another person it's not true. Once you have an idea of something, or rather BELIEF of how things work, it's hard to change your ways of thinking. 
    F.e.: You've watched the news so many times, and all you see is people with piercings and tattoos go to prison, get busted for murder, etc. 
    Once you see a person looking like that, you can't help but feeling a bit uneasy, or you won't drop your guard around them. 
    (The example is to give a better understanding, I don't want the issue to resolve around this example).
    Do you get what I'm saying?
    that is a product of ignorance, not the media. the creators of the media are not responsible for how people interpret it., one cannot just abdicate responsibility from their perdjudice because it was in a movie they saw as a kid. its on the parents to teach the children how things actually work, or the adults to reach a logial conclusion based on real life instead of the medai.



    This is on topic. Wgat i'm duscussing is not only relevant, but the same thing. I'm simpli coming at it from a different angle.

    I'll try using "yours" then because apparently i was't being clear enough. How women are potrayed in videogames is down to target audience, as i said earlier. if women (or men, but it would have more impact coming from women i think) want more games aimed at them or at both genders, its on women to be vocal AND constructive about it. Tell these companies how they might better target women and how it will boost their profits (rather than shouting SEXIST and BOYCOTT all over the place, which is sadly common). Its not as though these compaies are (likely) intentionally ignoring half their audience, its likely they just haven't been told (by enough people, cleaarly enough) what the audience wants or where the money in making those games is, so they continue as now because they know exactly where the money is.

    Then when a game that meets your standards comes out, buy it like mad, even if its not especially good, just to make it known that there is an audience there waiting for games, an entire demographic that would spend more money on games if they were the target audience of some of them.

    the people deciding what games are made are ultimately companies, its these people you have to speak to, and with your wallet. companies do not have a grand history as instruments of socaial justice.

    Unless of course, you're discussing the issue just to discuss it, but that was not the vibe i got from the OP.
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    Post by reim0027 Tue Sep 10, 2013 10:12 pm

    That's a good point. IMO, the best way to get a message across is with positive outlook, and not just yelling and screaming.
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    Post by densetsushun Wed Sep 11, 2013 2:34 am

    I don't disagree with Forum Pirate's point, but I think he misunderstands what goes on with these discussions most of the time. Yes, something happens and feminists do get outraged, because it is something that affects them(us). But very few are shouting boycotts and demanding the heads of developers, the discussions are largely about how the situation that spurred the discussion affects them and what they would like to see. This might not find its way to the developers, or even the larger public to boot, and gets drowned by the outrage, but these are the discussions being held right now. There might be a better way to get the message across to the developers but everything starts with healthy discussions.
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    Post by Forum Pirate Wed Sep 11, 2013 7:05 am

    its a very vocal minority. you have to drown them out with reasonable critisims and desires, be passionitly moderate.

    I'm not saying that whats happens here, but i did indeed see it happen here, if perhaps a minority, it still caught my attention, which was my point just now.
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    Post by densetsushun Wed Sep 11, 2013 10:31 am

    Agreed, reasonable and civil discussions should definitely be used to drown out the vocal minority.
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    Post by Acarnatia Wed Sep 11, 2013 11:29 am

    ^@ Dens-was that sarcasm?

    The people who watch/read such media as film, games and so on are, to varying measures, prone to taking what they absorb as an accurate depiction of reality. There is also some measure of trust by people in the media, film and game industries, and to varying degrees rely on them to have done the research and present ideas and stories in a way that honors and/or reflects the setting, characters and events, especially if the piece is presented in adds or taglines as geing realistic, historically accurate, based off a true story, etc. The creators, thus, have some responsibility to show the truth, just as news stations do.
    The thing is, the creators often don't. This comes from any combination of factors including
    1) a genuine oversight by the creator.This doesn't doesn't really excuse it, though, as the creators should have done the research first.
    2) the creators decide to alter, skew or altogether make something entirely inaccurate/unrealistic because of the Rule of Cool-a sliding scale of letting the story get away with something simply because it is awesome. There are varying degrees of this, and varying degrees to which it can be implemented and still present things accurately. Entire movies somtimes exist only thanks to this.
    3) the creators decide to make something unrealistic because the audience expects or even demands it, something called the Coconut Effect. This is a result of inaccurate stereotypes, or people having been exposed to certain elements in media that are unrealistic for so long that they come to thing the false media version is realistic and the real is fake-or reality is unrealistic.
    4) the creators may be promoting a viewpoint on a subject or justifying one that is just inaccurate. This can include implying untrue things about someone, (positive or negative) altering things so as to support or undermine someone, or only present certain information and omitting other.
    5) the creator doesn't care about presenting things accurately and is out to make a monetarily successful piece, taking advantage of the Rule of Cool, the Coconut effect, and that most people don't do the research.

    On the other hand, the audience themselves are also responsible; most often, they haven't and aren't going to do enough (or any) research on the subject, and trust the piece to have presented things as they really are/were/will be. Some get so caught up in their existing views on things, they refuse to do any study, or even consider changing their views when blatantly presented with evidence and/or research that their view is inaccurate. These hold a lot of weight, as a lot of the false paradigms that the creators play a part in creating are quickly dispelled (at least somewhat) when the audience does even a little genuine research.
    This bleeds into basically all areas of life in 1st-world countries (at least) today, including how women are viewed, expected to be and demanded to be, and thus what they will do and how they will do it. This can be quite harmful.

    I agree that the audience does not offer much in their comments towards media creators in the way of requests, suggestions and alternatives, and that is a part of getting the kinds of media that the do want.

    Myself, I find the entire conflict of gender roles, expectations, values and demands to be uterly bizzare. I look at it and wonder, "Why? Why is this even an issue?"
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    Post by Serious_Much Wed Sep 11, 2013 11:45 am

    Locked at request of OP

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