Dark Souls 2: Lore Migraine Edition [spoilers and speculation!]

Okay! This is a lore thread about Dark Souls 2, now focusing on the information from the Beta. Since we know very little aside from that at the moment, this will raise more questions than answers...many, many more questions than answers  

Links of note:
Beta Dialogues part 1
Beta Dialogues part 2
Beta Item Names
Beta Item Descriptions


This is all overwhelming information so I will try to do it on the most orderly way possible.

Question 1: Is Dark Souls 2 a prequel, or a sequel?

The game was generally assumed to be a prequel, but several of the item descriptions challenge this assumption and make the issue more complicated. Let's try to find Dark Souls references in these descriptions to try to find out...

An ancient miracle, said to have been passed
down by an ancient warrior in the service of
the Princess of Sunlight before his death.

This miracle boosts the attack and defense
of the user and people nearby for a short
period of time

This seems like a normal reference to Gwynevere. Not much to see here, I believe, except that the existence of the Princess of Sunlight is known.

--

Some sort of key wrote:Key to the prison in the Huntsman's Copse.
The Undead hunts during the reign of
the Iron King took place in this forest,
and the cells in which the Undead were
held still stand there to this day.
However, the march of time has eroded
any difference between the captors
and the captives

Aside from the reference to the "Iron King", which we know nothing of (this will be pattern, basically all lands and characters mentioned in these descriptions are new) this description tells us something important: This land had fallen to the Undead curse, and it had fallen a long time ago.

In Dark Souls 1, while references to other lands are sparse, we know that most of these lands have normal humans (like Sieglinde) and that they hunt undead, killing them or sending them to an asylum as it happens to the player character. The only kingdom we know that has fully fallen to the undead is Balder. Still this is not really helpful, as it does not mean that there couldn't be others to suffer the same fate, or even ones that fell before Balder.

--

Let's see the Estus Flask now

A green glass bottle of unknown make.
Fill it with Estus at a bonfire, and drink
from it to restore HP.

There is some kind of link between the Estus
Flasks and the bonfires that illuminate the
world of the Undead, but knowledge of this
has been long forgotten.

All that is known now is that this flask
remains a prized possession of the Undead.

This starts to get curious. "Some kind of link between the Estus Flasks and the bonfires" is suspected, but not really understood, the details of which having been "long forgotten". If we compare it to the Dark Souls description...

Dark Souls 1 Estus Flask Description wrote:The Undead treasure these dull green flasks.
Fill with Estus at bonfire. Fills HP.

The Estus Flasks are linked to the Fire
Keepers. The Dark Tales also make reference:

An emerald flask, from the Keeper's soul.
She lives to protect the flame,
And dies to protect it further

While also vague, it cites the "Dark Tales" which explain how the power of the Estus comes from the Fire Keepers. Said Dark Tales quote is also intentionally vague, but the mere mention of the Dark Tales hints at some part of this world's culture, alike to the Chosen Undead "prophecy", which refers to the Estus' origins in that specific passage. This clashes with the Dark Souls 2 description, obviously. "All that is known is that this flask remains a prized possession of the Undead".

Interesting, and this is not the end of it.

Leather Hat Description wrote:
A commonplace leather hat with a feather.

Favored by hunters skilled with a bow, this hat was based on the one worn by a folkloric master archer whose name is now lost to time.

A folkloric master archer whose name is now lost to time? Oh my

Pharis's Hat Dark Souls 1 Description wrote:
Broad-brimmed hat favored by the archer hero
Pharis.


Pharis was an accomplished archer, and though
he was human, he ranked alongside Hawkeye
Gough, one of the Four Knights of Lord
Gwyn. His hat is universally popular among
children.

This seems to clearly show that the Dark Souls 2 description is from a long time after the Dark Souls 1 description. The name of Pharis was completely forgotten, his figure shrouded in legend. The look of that Leather Hat is identical to Pharis's hat, by the way.

--

This, however, complicates things further:

Chaos Hood Description wrote:Pyromancer's hood.

Has the power to resist fire.

Pyromancy was developed over time through practice of the Art of the Primordial Flame by the pyromancers who inherited this art.

Combustion Description wrote:One of the most ancient pyromancies, passed
down through word of mouth. Releases an
intense flame in front of the user.

It is unknown who created the first pyromancy,
but ancient pyromancies such as this are
being passed on by an unknown practitioner
of the art to this day.

Pyromancy... there are things here that also point to this being set in the future of Dark Souls, the most obvious one is the name of the art, pyromancy, which refers to the alternative to Fire Sorcery that came about after the creation of the Flame of Chaos and the fall of Izalith (this would rule out the possibility of a prequel or at least limit the time period where it could have taken place). Also pyromancies are called ancient and "passed down through word of mouth", which would fit with something that thrived on the Great Swamp.

However, there are some inconsistencies, like the spells being casted through a catalyst, and a weird reference to the "Art of the Primordial Flame".

--

Lightning Spear wrote: A miracle that launches a giant spear of lightning.

This miracle came into the possession of
the Melfian clergy through ancient lore.
Little is understood about the source of
its power. Perhaps this miracle belonged
to some long-forgotten hero.

Another weird description that points to a distant future of Dark Souls. These people do not know about the relation between lightning and the Sun, they do not know about Gwyn, and as we have seen they also do not know what links Estus Flasks to bonfires.

Gwynevere seems to be the only one of the previously known gods to remain known.

Melfia is a new location, the only thing we know so far is that magic warriors seem to be popular there.

--

Now for the last item description of this post...it's from some sort of mage hood and...

Some Mage Hood wrote:

Hood worn by the great sorcerer Straid.

Straid was a sworn brother-in-arms of
the ancient king of old Olaphis.
Together, they slew the Ancient Dragon,
and tasted omniscience.
However, even the renowned wisdom of
Olaphis was not enough to control the
peculiar magic birthed by his arts.

??????



Old Olaphis? A sorcerer and a king slew *the* Ancient Dragon, and acquired omniscience? Is this some legend born of a bastardization of Gwyn and Seath killing the Ancient Dragons?

What peculiar magic? Soul sorcery? It does not look dangerous to me. What does it do, awake the Old One? Or was he the wretch who invented Dark Bead?

Questions, questions. This last description is by far the most puzzling.

Anyways, that's it for the first post, this already got quite long. Feel free to comment on any of this or other item descriptions or dialogue I did not link yet. I will try to make another of these posts soon-ish, focusing on some things I did not mention yet.

Speculation for everyone!

..

..



tl;dr: What? Seriously? you were expecting one?

I am afraid that you are unable to learn lore.
The basic framework, you see. It cannot be taught.
Oh, do not fret. Life isn't all about lore. You will find your own way.
Don't frown with regret; peer forward with your head held high.

Keh heh heh

Essentially; Dark Souls 2 happens long after the events of Dark Souls 1, and it follows the ending of the Chosen Undead kindling the first flame.

Well now we know that it's a sequel, awesome.

Also glad to see this thread up! It gets me excited for all the lore discussions that'll come after the DkS II release.

why does the item description info list bows as both pierce and strike damage? (can i smack people with my bow now?) also in the tearstone ring description it listed a particular country of origin, in dks carim was where tearstones were found, so perhaps this new nation was formed on the bones of a conquered carim?

sparkly-twinkly-lizard wrote:why does the item description info list bows as both pierce and strike damage? (can i smack people with my bow now?) also in the tearstone ring description it listed a particular country of origin, in dks carim was where tearstones were found, so perhaps this new nation was formed on the bones of a conquered carim?

I am not sure about the bow.

Anyways we don't know of the Tearstones were created in Carim. The blue one on Dark Souls 1 is from Catarina, for example. The only rings we know for sure were created on Carim are the -bite Rings, which were made by Sir Arstor.

Also, I found and added another text dump which includes the item names, which I had not read.

Of note is that the pyromancer gear is called the CHAOS Set.

Ok I think we have a mistranslation. Unless from has given him  new name. But I think Pait in the 2nd part of the dialogues is patches. Atleast he does what patches always does

Part 2: Setting

The game takes place in the Kingdom of Drangleic.

I conclude this from the following dialogue, which makes it quite clear

-All we get is strangers these days.
Everybody's gone and run off!

-Drangleic's been a pile o' rubble
since the war fought long, long ago

What war was it? We will see in a bit, it is quite fascinating.

First I will post all mentions of Drangleic here so we get a general idea of how this place was.

Fire Whip wrote:An elementary pyromancy.
Summons a whip of flame in front of the user.
Though commonly used by the pyromancer
soldiers of Drangleic, few truly mastered
this pyromancy as its short range requires
practiced maneuvering by the user

Fire Arrows wrote:The heads of these arrows have been

coated in pine resin, allowing them to
inflict fire damage.

Fire arrows are widely used throughout
Drangleic as a simple and effective way
to handle fire.

Temple Knight Helmet wrote:Helmet worn by the Silverdrake Knights of Lindeldt.

Though little is truly known about the order,
it is said that their well-honed miracles and
unwavering loyalty in the face of death made
Lindelt worthy rivals to Drangleic in their day

Hollow thief hood wrote:Hood favored by the Hollowed thieves who
wander the lands of Drangleic.

The hood is primarily intended to hide the
face of the wearer, and is of no practical
value as defensive gear.

Drangleic Armor wrote:Traditional Drangleic armor.
Granted only to knights whose loyalty was
recognized by the king.

Vendrick was a just king. He gave high-ranking
appointments to knights who demonstrated
both valor and charity, and helped lead his
country to prosperity.
This equipment is evidence of his great feats.

That's it, basically. A kingdom with soldiers that seem to favor fire and strength, rivals of Lindelt.

King Vendrick is mentioned as a just king who led his kingdom to prosperity.

They had undead hunts as we saw on the key that I cited in the first post

"The Undead hunts during the reign of
the Iron King took place in this forest,
and the cells in which the Undead were
held still stand there to this day.
However, the march of time has eroded
any difference between the captors
and the captives."
I can't really say if the Iron King was Vendrick or not. Probably not.


The War

As we have seen, the kingdom of Drangleic was destroyed in a big war, with a battle having been fought in that very same forest. Against who? Lindelt? Apparently not....against giants.


-Drangleic's been a pile o' rubble
since the war fought long, long ago.
-When the Giants crossed the sea.
-Seemed like the battles would never end.
-Poor folk like myself had nary a place to sleep.

-This fort used to be the forefront base to protect
the king's castle from the enemy invading from the sea.
-May be that collapsed pass was a remain of the battle.
-I wanted to go to Madula but you see that pass is closed.
-So I tried to seek another pass,
but there's too much hollows around.

This is extremely interesting and complicated, because "giant" is not really a specific word in the world of Dark Souls.

There are three races that could be called giants in Dark Souls. I will order them from bigger to smaller size.

1. The race of giants that serves the Gods, like the Giant Blacksmith, Hawkeye Gough, Sen's Fortress giants, etc.
   
2. The long gone giants whose remains litter the Tomb of the Giants
   
3. The "demigod" (to give it a name) race the Silver and Black Knights, Ornstein, Gwyn, etc. seem to be a part of. They are never called giants directly in the game, but we know they called the primordial human the "pygmy" due to the difference in size. It would make sense for a human kingdom to refer to them as giants.
   

Interesting, is it not? We cannot say for sure, but I don't really believe it could be 1) or 2). The ones in the Tomb of the Giants seem to be part of a civilization that is long gone, and the other giants seem to be a not-so-intelligent race dedicated to serving the gods. I don't see how there could be a huge number of them working together to invade a kingdom and destroy it, especially when the gods seem to be absent. It could be possible, I guess, but I do not believe it is the case. They did not seem to be too intelligent, either. It could also be a new race that is referred as giants...

Anyways, what do you think about this?

Thanks for this post CaligoIllioneus, now i want to read all the descriptions and dialogues xD

Two possibilities in my mind.

One, it could be the demi-god race. We know the actual 'gods' that resided over Lordran eventually left themselves once they saw the darkness was starting to develop over the land. It could be that the demi-god race, after the gods had left soon abandoned Anor Londo and the rest of Lordran too. However seeing as the timeline is set probably hundreds of years after that happened, I doubt this because the Kingdom of Drangleic may not have even have been found by then.

Simply looking back at the description of the leather hat that may/may not be referencing Pharis, it seems that the events that transpired in the original game happened such a long time ago before the events in Dark Souls 2 that almost everything lore-wise has been lost to time itself.

The second, of course would be that the giants that we see, like Gough, tried to migrate or simply went to war over the past discrimination towards their race. We see in the DLC with Gough's helm that humans showed a large amount of discrimination towards the giants, so it's possible that this eventually caused issues with foreign policy. If it was the case that they were trying to migrate from somewhere (possibly the ruins of Lordran) they were probably doing it for a valid reason. We see the giants themselves are fully capable of staying alive in Lordran in the first game, so it's possible they might have migrated because of the growing population of dragons that may/may not have been rising in Lordran.

Regarding the giants, I believe that the giants referred to were much larger than the ones we see in Dark Souls. Remember the 12 minute gameplay video? At one point we can see the player fighting some enemy standing on a gigantic sword sticking out from the building and pointing out to the sea. Also, a gigantic hand is attached to this sword. The wielder of that sword must truely have been gigantic.

Video link (around 05.22):

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z_JFDPCtXFY

CaligoIllioneus wrote:

Some Mage Hood wrote:

Hood worn by the great sorcerer Straid.

Straid was a sworn brother-in-arms of
the ancient king of old Olaphis.
Together, they slew the Ancient Dragon,
and tasted omniscience.
However, even the renowned wisdom of
Olaphis was not enough to control the
peculiar magic birthed by his arts.

??????



Old Olaphis? A sorcerer and a king slew *the* Ancient Dragon, and acquired omniscience? Is this some legend born of a bastardization of Gwyn and Seath killing the Ancient Dragons?

I'm pretty sure this is not a bastardization of Gwyn or Seath, but a new character. Notice how it says the Ancient Dragon, singular. I believe it is speaking of the dragon in Ash Lake. This new character apparently killed it. Hopefully this doesn't mean a Dragon Covenant is out of the question.

CaligoIllioneus wrote:This is extremely interesting and complicated, because "giant" is not really a specific word in the world of Dark Souls.

But it is in Demons Souls. The 6th archstone is coming in the lore of DkS2? Perhaps the giants searched for another way to bring war to anybody (the fog made them mad, they wheren't keen on killing people in Boletaria, they where keen on killing anything and everything) and found out, that behind the horizon over the sea there is something to kill?

And Demons Souls 2 gives us the 6th archstone - lol